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<krwq>
are there any good libraries for 2d matrices (not expecting larger matrices than 1000x1000), only need multiplication, addition and some kind of elementiwise map? I've tried magicl but it seems super unfinished, and supporting only complex matrices although seems like it's under development and calls into lapack
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<pierpa>
we talked about this exact topic here some months ago, let me search back...
<krwq>
I think naive might do in this case unless there is some ready solution then I'd go with that
<krwq>
clem seems to have naive implementation for most of the operations
<pfdietz>
Yeah, you have to be careful with algorithms. Constants matter, sometimes more than non-constant factors.
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<krwq>
ok, going with naive until it will start being too annoying
<krwq>
after that probably will contribute to magicl as blas/lapack would be nice
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<pfdietz>
For matrices the bigger wins are in exploiting sparsity, and in block-structuring the computation to take advantage of caches (and also pipelining).
<krwq>
pfdietz: mine is not going to be sparse, I'm sure about it
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<krwq>
pfdietz: I might be able to use smaller matrix though
<krwq>
pfdietz: or couple of smaller at least
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<pierpa>
krwq: how fast is at multiplying 1000x1000 something that must be optimized for this, say, matlab or mathematica?
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<pierpa>
you could tae this as a benchmark to see how far you are from *practically* optimal
<pierpa>
*take
<krwq>
pierpa: do not have matlab at this point, I remember back when I used it it was fairly instant, it's a good point
<pierpa>
hmmm
<krwq>
I'll test with Octave once I implement the rest
<krwq>
unfortunatelly times when I got matlab for free are finished
<pierpa>
k
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<pfdietz>
There was some excitement in combinatorics a couple of years ago related to a problem that had implications for matrix multiplicaton.
<pfdietz>
If the conjecture (the Erdos-Szemeredi Sunflower Conjecture) had been false, it could have been possible to multiply matrices in O(n^2) operations.
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<pfdietz>
But someone proved the conjecture, so that doesn't work.
<pfdietz>
The proof of the conjecture was kind of magical, though.
<krwq>
pfdietz: what is that conjecture about?
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<pfdietz>
The conjecture was this.
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<pfdietz>
A 3-sunflower is a triple of distinct sets such that the pairwise intersection of each of the three pairs equals the intersection of all three.
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<pfdietz>
E-S conjecture said that a sunflower-free collection of subsets of {1,...,n} has size O(c^n) for some constant c strictly less than 2.
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<pfdietz>
The result established the conjecture for c = 1.88...
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<krwq>
could someone explain this? (array-element-type (make-array '(2 3) :element-type 'float)) => T
<krwq>
also tried with :initial-element 0.0 and getting the same
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<pfdietz>
Which implementation is that in?
<krwq>
sbcl
<pfdietz>
You might try (upgraded-array-element-type 'float), see what that says.
<krwq>
does it depend on optimization settings?
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<krwq>
(upgraded-array-element-type 'float) => T
<krwq>
is possibly because of? (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1)))
<pfdietz>
Ok, there is no specialized array for element type float. There IS for single-float or double-float. But float is a union of the various float types.
<pfdietz>
Optimization settings have nothing to do with it.
<krwq>
pfdietz: I see - thanks! how do you figure it out?
<pfdietz>
If you tell SBCL you want arrays that can store any float type, it will give you an array that can store any values whatsoever.
<pfdietz>
upgraded-array-element-type gives the 'least' element type that an implementation has that will support a given type.
<pfdietz>
T is the type of all values (the top of the type lattice)
<krwq>
pfdietz: and how do you know what implementation supports (or spec requires)? is it possible to add your own specialization?
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<pfdietz>
No, it's not. To figure it out, you can call upgraded-array-element-type.
<pfdietz>
Also -- documentation!
<pfdietz>
A conforming implmentation must support arrays of certains types (bits, chars, base-chars, T), but can support more. There are some constraints.
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<krwq>
pfdietz: which part of doc says that? I'm looking at make-array now
<pfdietz>
Look at 15.1.2
<pfdietz>
Of CLHS
<pfdietz>
Correction: base-chars may be upgraded to just char.
<pfdietz>
That's because of a constraint on array element upgrading.
<pfdietz>
u-a-e-t must respect the type lattice.
<pfdietz>
If T1 is a (recognizable) subtype of T2, then (u-a-e-t T1) must be a subtype of (u-a-e-t T2).
<pfdietz>
Now, SBCL supports arrays of signed and unsigned 16 bit integers.
<pfdietz>
So, what is the upgraded type of (unsigned-byte 15)?
<pfdietz>
It has to be a subtype of both (unsigned-buyte 16) and of (signed-byte 16).
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<pfdietz>
In other words, SBCL must also support (unsigned-byte 15) as an actual array element type.
<pierpa>
aha!
<pierpa>
crazy CL :)
<FareTower>
lovely piece of language lawyering!
<pfdietz>
This also has the bizarre consequence that conforming lisps must have arrays with element type NIL.
<pfdietz>
They are required to support actual array elememt types of char and bit, and the intersection of those types is nil.
<FareTower>
so... the types of specialized arrays must form a lattice?
<pfdietz>
Yes. This is required by the standard, at least for recognizable subtypes. Obviously it can't be done in general for SATISFIES types without solving the halting problem.
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<pfdietz>
Excuse me, base-char and bit.
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<loke>
You can have an array type NIL, but I guess one of the dimensions must be zero?
<FareTower>
nope
<FareTower>
fields can be uninitialized
<FareTower>
with fill-pointer 0
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<phoe_air>
I'm waiting at the Warsaw airport for antoszka, his friend, and p_l.
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<FareTower>
phoe_air, heading to Marbella, Spain ?
<phoe_air>
FareTower: yes
<phoe_air>
jackdaniel is also coming, so it's at least five of us Polish people heading towards ELS.
<FareTower>
jackdaniel is already there, AFAICT.
<FareTower>
I miss you guys. Next year I hope.
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<phoe_air>
oh right! He is already there, he posted photos. (;
<phoe_air>
FareTower: miss you too. See you next year!
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<antoszka>
phoe_air: Cezary and I are planning to arrive at the airport around 9.
<antoszka>
phoe_air: How's the (passenger) traffic?
<p_l>
No jams on Żwirki I Wigury
* p_l
goes past the military port right now
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<phoe_air>
antoszka: very low when I was travelling, and I arrived here between 6 and 7.
<phoe_air>
I'm sitting by gates 25-26, right next to where our plane leaves.
<antoszka>
phoe_air: Ack, hope we're not too late ;)
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<phoe_air>
antoszka: no
<phoe_air>
the boarding stops at 09:50 AFAIR
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<phoe_air>
so you'll be just on time if you arrive at 9
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<p_l>
antoszka: if there is too much traffic at the security, grab vouchers from lost&found office and go through premium
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<phoe_air>
p_l: woah, seriously?
<phoe_air>
#hax
<makomo>
haha
<makomo>
morning
<phoe_air>
hey makomo
<p_l>
35 PLN per voucher
<p_l>
Hax is when you social engineer yourself to go through premium line without a voucher
<makomo>
phoe_air: how come you came almost 3 hours early? didn't want to risk anything? :D
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<phoe_air>
makomo: no, bus schedule from Cracow
<phoe_air>
this is the latest one that would not be too late.
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<makomo>
oh i see
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* p_l
has such a premium hack working in Heathrow
<p_l>
antoszka: security is not too bad today
<p_l>
phoe_air: raise your hand please xD
* p_l
needs to get a lisp shirt for next time
<phoe_air>
p_l:
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<phoe_air>
Hey beach!
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<beach>
"air"?
<phoe_air>
About to take an airplane, yep.
<phoe_air>
And I can't SSH into my main IRC session so I can talk as phoe.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<phoe_air>
Airport WiFi does not allow SSH connection for some silly reasons. I must expose some kind of SSH tunnel.
<phoe_air>
As in, I must expose it one day when I come back, so I can connect via port 443 or something.
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<p_l>
beach: good morning :-)
<beach>
What route are you guys taking again?
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<p_l>
WAW-FRA-AGP
<p_l>
1800 arrival in Malaga
<beach>
You'll be tired.
<p_l>
I exceptionally so
<phoe_air>
Of course we will.
<p_l>
Last two weeks were hell
<beach>
Oh, sorry to hear that.
<beach>
What happened?>
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<p_l>
beach: grandfather died, this caused an avalanche of events that had me running ragged
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<jackdaniel>
beach: are you attending todays excursion to Ronda?
<beach>
jackdaniel: No, we decided to skip that.
<beach>
p_l: Oh, that's bad.
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<White_Flame>
is there a reasonably faster way to get the string representation of an object through a custom print-object method than (format nil "~a" obj) ?
<White_Flame>
this is in the middle of my I/O routines, so it smells a bit to use full FORMAT
<p_l>
Call print-object directly?
<jackdaniel>
depends on what print-object uses. you may use princ in the print-object method and you'll avoid format that way
<White_Flame>
p_l: yeah, if I also set up a string stream
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<White_Flame>
actually, I remembered write-to-string, and that does the print-object formatting, so that seems to be a reasonable thing to use for this purpose
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<White_Flame>
rubber duck question asking
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<beach>
Some time ago, someone here mentioned a commercial development system for a proprietary language, and that company went bust. But now I can't remember the name of the company. And I can't seem to find it in the logs.
<beach>
Any hints?
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<beach>
Got it: Rebol
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<Shinmera>
Just arrived at Marbella in case anyone's around!
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<SAL9000>
On my way to Marbella, flight arrives in Malaga at 16:35
<Shinmera>
SAL9000: Definitely want to meet up with you, let me know when you're settled in.
<SAL9000>
Will do! :)
<FareTower>
beach: I believe famous MIT Schemer Joe Marshall wrote a compiler for REBOL. Despite REBOL being super dynamic, you could optimize for the common case and fall back to the meta-level if that failed.
<makomo>
a bit of trivia: the game Machinarium used REBOL for its game scripting iirc
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<Xof>
I'm on my way to Marbella! I arrive in Malaga at about the same time as SAL9000 (maybe we're on the same flight?)
<Xof>
Marbella at about 19:00 if the bus timetable is to be believed
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<Xof>
I will try to check in here once I get to Marbella; I'll probably be hungry
<Xof>
so if anyone knows where I should go to meet up and get food, please leave instructions here!
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<SAL9000>
Xof: ARN-AGP, Norwegian Airlines
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<beach>
Good afternoon everyone!
<beach>
We are definitely in Marbella, and our "hotel" is fantastic.
<beach>
rme: We are in number 15.
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<Shinmera>
SAL9000: Xof: I'll try and get you at the bus station
<beach>
I can't think of a better place for a conference than this.
<Shinmera>
If it is indeed 19:00 CEST
<makomo>
good afternoon beach
<makomo>
these meetups sound hella cool
<makomo>
everbody organizing and coordinating over irc
<beach>
makomo: Oh, you are missing out this time?
<makomo>
beach: i've only joined the lisp community a month or two ago :-)
<beach>
makomo: Sorry to hear that.
<makomo>
heh :-), i hope i'll be there one day
<beach>
Definitely.
<makomo>
would be nice to meet you all
<Shinmera>
beach: I might be just a little bit biased but I'd probably prefer a conference in Zürich ;)
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<beach>
Shinmera: You can make it happen.
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<makomo>
will the conference be recorded this year too?
<beach>
So they say.
<makomo>
great!
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<beach>
makomo: However, the most important part of a conference like this is not the talks, but the direct discussions with other participants.
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<beach>
Shinmera: If you hurry up, you could propose your services, and that way we would not have to be co-organized with <programming> as has been proposed.
<SAL9000>
Shinmera: Only one problem there -- we're not taking the bus.
<Shinmera>
SAL9000: oh? Why not?
<Shinmera>
beach: I don't know that I'm ready for that.
<beach>
:(
<makomo>
beach: i agree. however, it's the only thing from ELS that i have access to, since i can't be physically there
<beach>
makomo: Sure. Just encouraging you to attend next time.
<makomo>
at least this time, that is
<makomo>
:-)
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<beach>
Shinmera: We took a taxi from our hotel in Málaga. It wasn't terribly expensive, and it was a lot easier than to first go to the bus station, take the bus, then get from the bus station to our hotel.
<beach>
It must be even less expensive from the airport in Málaga to Marbella.
<Shinmera>
Sure, but the bus station is literally in front of the airport, so it's very convenient
<Shinmera>
cost 8€ for a ticket.
<beach>
Fair enough.
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<Shinmera>
o
<Shinmera>
Whoops
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<p_l>
beach: How much was the taxi?
<beach>
80€
<p_l>
also, hello from flight LH1150 from Frankfurt to Malaga :)
<pfdietz>
I hope it's nice and warm there. Freezing rain here near Chicago.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: weather in marbella
<Colleen>
Weather in Marbella: Clear at 22°C, 50% humidity, 4km/h wind, 1019hPa pressure.
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<beach>
p_l: From the center of Málaga, which is further than the airport.
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<beach>
pfdietz: It is totally gorgeous.
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<p_l>
having spent last week in London, just the weather in Warsaw was gorgeous, and according to jackdaniels the weather in Marbella is similar
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<jjkola>
hi
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<beach>
Hello jjkola.
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<Xof>
Shinmera: wow, thanks. I've now landed and am waiting for the airport bus, which leaves at 18:00
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<Xof>
I think it arrives at the bus station ~50 minutes later
<Shinmera>
Yes, takes around 45-55 minutes
<Xof>
excellent
<Xof>
see you shortly, then
<Shinmera>
Somewhat shortly :)
<Shinmera>
Remember that Spain is in CEST, not GMT
<Shinmera>
So, just to be sure, does your bus leave 18:00 CEST (in an hour) or 17:00 CEST (now)
<Xof>
in an hour
<Shinmera>
Alright.
<Xof>
I have already adjusted to spanish notions of "soon" as well as spanish notions of time
<Shinmera>
Hah!
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<Xof>
also: wow this is the first sunshine I've seen in months
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<Shinmera>
Is it that bad in the UK?
<p_l>
Shinmera: I've spent last week in London, it was constantly half-raining and even when it wasn't, above ~100m there was monolithic gray sky
<Xof>
grey. Just grey. Lots and lots of grey. (I probably exaggerate, a bit)
<Shinmera>
Yeesh
<p_l>
like Xof is saying - Grey. Lots and lots of grey
<ebrasca>
Can you move files from one directory to other with rename-file ?
<p_l>
enough grey to drain colours from the city
<Shinmera>
ebrasca: yes
<Shinmera>
ebrasca: Note that rename-file is likely going to fail if you try to rename across devices.
<ebrasca>
Shinmera: I am implementing rename-file for my implementation of fat32 in mezzano.
<p_l>
ebrasca: please please do it through VFS
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<ebrasca>
p_l: What is VFS ?
<p_l>
ebrasca: Virtual File System
<ebrasca>
p_l: I don't understand how to do it with VFS.
<p_l>
generalized name for a layer that sits in between actual filesystem implementations and what the software uses
<beach>
p_l: And Mezzano already has that?
<p_l>
beach: it's more a plea to consider it now, rather than try to retrofit it, because the latter is much harder
<p_l>
a minimal VFS in CL could be a function that extracts "device" from a CL path and calls apropriate generic method with it as argument for specialization
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<ebrasca>
p_l: I think mezzano have someting like it.
<p_l>
beach: an interesting case - MIT-derived Lisp machines didn't have proper separation of filesystem-related components, this resulted in some file-related applications to be so tightly bound to LMFS they didn't work without it
<p_l>
ebrasca: that's a general disk interface
<beach>
I see.
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<p_l>
Damn, now I wish I actually had managed to take a proper time off for ELS, cause I feel an itch to sit down and write that VFS for you :)
<p_l>
ebrasca: looks like a start - though it uses HOST as distinguishing component of the path, and you might want to have multiple devices at a host
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<ebrasca>
p_l: I use host as partition name/disk name.
<ebrasca>
p_l: I don't have full understanding about common lisp FS.
<Xof>
you are in good company
<p_l>
hahahaha
<Xof>
the CL pathnames and files chapters suffered in the final stage of the editing of the standard
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<Xof>
the committee ran out of time and money
<p_l>
I have used quite recently some OSes that had the same fields as a CL pathname
<Xof>
those chapters have several internal contradictions and incoherences; they're not quite sure whether they're aiming to be a superset or subset of all things
<p_l>
(phoe_air) the little bit of knowledge that the Common Lisp community had abouth pathnames has been codified into ASDF and UIOP; the rest is shamanism and black magic
<Xof>
and then implementors start interpreting things, and users start complaining that the thing they want to do doesn't work how they expect, and...
<ebrasca>
Yea
<p_l>
There's a significant problem that most of the APIs many people use have all of one field out of all lisp pathname fields
<Xof>
if you're an implementor, try to do something sensible. If you're a user, please have sympathy with your implementors
<Xof>
(if you're pfdietz, curl up and cry in the corner)
<Xof>
Hm, next year is 2019. SBCL20 in London in December, anyone?
<p_l>
ebrasca: I'd probably implement HOST as "network" switch and device for "partition"
<p_l>
Xof: I wouldn't mind London, though I don't know about time :)
<Xof>
this would be additional to a nice conference in springtime
<Xof>
not instead
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<pfdietz>
Pathnames, so little could be tested.
* ebrasca
don't know how to do what p_l like. Ebrasca goes to his corner and cry.
<p_l>
ebrasca: are you at ELS?
<ebrasca>
p_l: I don't have money to go.
<p_l>
:<
<p_l>
pity
<p_l>
still, itchy fingers here
<ebrasca>
p_l: mmm Can I manage to go with 100 euros?
<p_l>
ebrasca: given that it starts tomorrow, nope
<p_l>
unless you've a way of getting to Marbella and arrange for accommodation
<ebrasca>
p_l: Maybe if I start walking ...
<ebrasca>
p_l: Do you have tox?
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<p_l>
not really, never got around to using it so it disappeared from my system
<pfdietz>
I recently found one cannot expect (namestring #p"/foo/bar/baz") to be "/foo/bar/baz".
<pfdietz>
Symbolic links were getting substituted.
<ebrasca>
I think it is "Host:>foo>bar>baz"
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<p_l>
ebrasca: MIT lmfs style?
<ebrasca>
p_l: Maybe like Genera path.
<p_l>
Genera code is derived from tere
<p_l>
*ther
<p_l>
... *there
<p_l>
but IIRC first LMFS with this style was in MIT Lisp Machine software
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<ebrasca>
p_l: mmm someting related with Stallman?
<p_l>
I think he did code some of it, but on hte system 78.48 from MIT I have LMFS version 21.34 and "Symbolics" (probably symbolics contributions back to MIT) version 8.13
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<ebrasca>
p_l: I can't do VFS bacause I don't understand where to start and my fat32 is WIP.
<p_l>
ebrasca: don't worry
<ebrasca>
I worry because I expect from me perfect code but I get errors...
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<p_l>
There's already some redirection layer in place, get your own code working and who knows, I might be one day sleep-deprived enough to go mad and implement VFS on that ;D
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<p_l>
"perfect" is the enemy of "done"
<Shinmera>
A VFS could be a general implementation extension, I suppose.
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<Shinmera>
Just needs a protocol specification
<p_l>
Shinmera: I actually thought about this in the past, as possible CDR document
<ebrasca>
p_l: Yea with time I focus more in "done" rather than "perfect".
<p_l>
Would love to see some form of buy in on many implementations though (a way to submit monkey-patching code for a bunch of them?)
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<p_l>
an example of what I was thinking of using such a VFS - ZIP file VFS that you can mount as an extra "host/device", similarly a "driver" for files embedded in implementation-specific way in the image, etc.
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<p_l>
Mezzano just appears to be an interesting place to have it in general, and with some VFS work in place already :)
<dim>
hi!
<beach>
Hello dim.
<dim>
In Marbella, ready to go for a walk by the sea then have a drink / dinner
<Shinmera>
Dinner will probably have to wait another two hours at least.
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<ebrasca>
I don't understand ourputs of rename-file if successful.
<_death>
two hours.. just the amount of time I figure I'll be resting ;)
<dim>
well beers by the see it is then
<dim>
a good way to spend time
<dim>
anyway, I'm also on the Whatsapp group if things move
<Shinmera>
I'll pick up Xof at the bus station in about 50 minutes. Dunno what we'll do after he checks in
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<ebrasca>
Is truename long-name (not always present) or short-name from fat32?
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<p_l>
ebrasca: the question IMO should be "do I support LFN or not, and if yes, return LFN name if present"
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* ebrasca
is searching for meaning of "LFN".
<p_l>
ah, sorry. LFN = Long File Name in FAT32
<p_l>
or rather VFAT
<p_l>
because FAT's history is full of fail
<razieliyo>
lol you're all in marbella?
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<p_l>
(phoe_air) FAT: Fail Allocation Table
<p_l>
(phoe_air) razieliyo: yes, slowly gathering there for the ELS, some of us are still travelling towards marbella
<razieliyo>
tourist city, prices would prolly be high
<razieliyo>
nice
<razieliyo>
the weather here in the south of spain is a bit shitty these days, it use to be more shiny but this year rain is staying a bit more than usual
<razieliyo>
maybe marbella is better than here in the west
<dim>
weather is beautiful, and that being said, I'm going outside to enjoy it ;-)
<razieliyo>
haha nice
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<p_l>
razieliyo: weather in Marbella beats the gray out of London's weather ;)
<p_l>
our 4 man contingent is still at FL330 en route to Malaga
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<p_l>
expected time in Malaga is 18:45, dunno how long is the bus travel
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<Shinmera>
Bus takes 45 minutes, but it goes pretty irregularly
<Shinmera>
or rather, infrequently
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<p_l>
Going for landing approach now, cya
<pfdietz>
"3 cm of snow and ice expected" -- weather in Not Spain.
<frgo>
Not in Southern Germany. 25 deg Celsius here near Stuttgart.
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<JuanDaugherty>
looks like about 3 cm here (about 100 clicks from toronto)
<JuanDaugherty>
*klicks
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<JuanDaugherty>
but i am the happy because it's the end of it not the begin
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<Xof>
ok, Shinmera and I are now in Marbella
<Xof>
where is everyone?
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<jackdaniel>
we are about to eat dinner at 8pm in restaurant near avenida las palmeras 6, feel free to join :)
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<phoe>
we are in Malaga
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<shka>
hello
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<phoe>
heyyyy
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<p_l>
Finally the bus arrived in Malaga
<p_l>
Also shitty English people in Spain are shitty
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<ebrasca>
p_l: In Spain normal people only understand spanish.
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<p_l>
It was more the accent and manner of being that suggested to me an English chat, even if rather retirement age
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<p_l>
s/chat/chav/
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<Xach>
finally
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<phoe>
I am in the hotel.
<phoe>
I shall CRASH now. I have not had any sleep last night.
<phoe>
See you at the conference tomorrow, everyone.
<Shinmera>
Sleep well
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<phoe>
You too guys when you do
<phoe>
I can't wait for tomorrow
<Shinmera>
I can
<fourier>
yep see you all there, gonna be cool
<_death>
I must, time machine is at home
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<verisimilitude>
Hello, again.
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<verisimilitude>
I'm currently adding system buffering and echoing control to my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, even though I despise the idea.
<verisimilitude>
What are you all working on?
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<verisimilitude>
I'm currently adding CCL code for this, but it can't find its queer little databases on my system and so I'm doing it blind.
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<equwal>
I'm doing haskell
<asarch>
Why?
<equwal>
Job
<equwal>
This is what happens when you don't have macros:
<equwal>
instance FromJSON Agenda
<equwal>
instance FromJSON BillSpecificFunding
<equwal>
instance FromJSON Category
<equwal>
instance FromJSON District
<equwal>
instance FromJSON Bill
<equwal>
instance ToJSON Agenda
<equwal>
instance ToJSON District
<equwal>
instance ToJSON Category
<equwal>
instance ToJSON BillSpecificFunding
<equwal>
instance ToJSON Bill
<equwal>
That would be two lines in CL with a macro.
<fe[nl]ix>
equwal: stop that
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<simplegauss>
in common implementations (I'm particularly interested in sbcl) is there a way to declare a lambda inline? of course this is going to be used in a macro
<simplegauss>
what i mean is a macro might produce a lambda which gets assigned or called, and i'd like this lambda to be declared inline. of course i could do something like "(flet ((f (x) (declare (inline f)) (1+ x))) f)" but i'd like to know the better solution if it exists
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<jmercouris>
simplegauss: What is the question? A macro can produce any kind of code, and a lambda can be made with (lambda ())
<verisimilitude>
So, LAMBDA is just a macro, simplegauss.
<verisimilitude>
Simply define another macro around that.
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<White_Flame>
flet supports declarations in its body