jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<cgay> Somehow never saw this before. Fun read. https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
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<pierpa> old but still good
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<drmeister> ::notify shiho Pull the latest clasp 'dev' and start building it again. I had introduced a problem in the previous version that only showed up when building quicklisp. The new 'dev' fixes it.
<Colleen> drmeister: Got it. I'll let shiho know as soon as possible.
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<beach> drmeister: Wrong channel?
<drmeister> Yoinks - yes it is
<drmeister> Thanks
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<drmeister> People here might get a kick out of this. I'm using Common Lisp to fold DNA
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<mathZ> drmeister: What is "fold DNA" ?
<drmeister> Predict the structure of DNA designed to fold into a particular structure.
<drmeister> I'm heading off to bed - I'll be back tomorrow.
<drmeister> Good night.
<mathZ> thx
<mathZ> good night
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<phoe> jasom: I actually do a thing to wok around tramp hacks.
<phoe> before I connect to the slime, I mount my Lisp projects directory using sshfs on the same location, so /home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/ refers to the same directory with the same contents both on the remote machine and the local one.
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<phoe> this way I avoid problems with translating names from local to remote ones, because they are the same.
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<cess11_> drmeister: Awesome, thanks for sharing.
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<myrkraverk> This is related to linedit; I already have a fork of it under my own (github) name; but I want to pull in changes from another fork
<myrkraverk> Is that possible?
<myrkraverk> Maybe not, or at least not obviously.
<myrkraverk> And github doesn't seem to allow me to fork it again.
<myrkraverk> Nor easily drop my previous fork.
<myrkraverk> . o O ( I am not a fan of git nor github; but that's a different story )
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<jackdaniel> if you want to pull changes from other repository, you can do that with
<jackdaniel> git pull https://github.com/foobar/McCLIM.git master
<jackdaniel> for instance
<jackdaniel> myrkraverk: ↑
<myrkraverk> Ok, so I need to first checkout my copy, *then* pull in changes from the other repository? And what happens if I want to make a pull request for the "other repository" ?
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<jackdaniel> in effect it will be no different from merging the other branch
<jackdaniel> if you have conflicts, you'll have to deal with them
<jackdaniel> in my personal experience best way to see what happens is trying it out ;)
<myrkraverk> Yeah, I'll try it out now.
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<myrkraverk> That seems to have worked; but now I have problems getting my local changes applied correctly.
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<myrkraverk> Long story short, I hacked the original linedit not to ask to quit when I did ctrl+d to exit.
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<myrkraverk> Now I get "Invalid initialization argument:" and I believe I'll have to apply some more hacks to a class hierarchy I don't fully understand yet.
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<myrkraverk> Ah, that turned out to be simple; just add the key to initialize-instance.
<myrkraverk> And those changes are now in https://github.com/myrkraverk/linedit
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<jackdaniel> grats
<jackdaniel> does it work with ecl already? :p
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<myrkraverk> I honestly wouldn't know.
<myrkraverk> I only touched the SBCL port.
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<jackdaniel> well, I do, that was a joke. linedit works fine-ish on sbcl and rather bad on ccl. it doesn't work at all on ecl
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<light2yellow> why cannot I (+ (defvar *a* 1) 2) ?
<Bike> defvar returns a symbol.
<light2yellow> if I just (defvar *a* 1), it yields *a*
<Bike> yes.
<light2yellow> so what's the problem?
<Bike> symbols aren't numbers.
<Bike> it's like saying what's blue plus two.
<light2yellow> if I do (+ *a* 2) it works, too
<Bike> yes, because then *a* is evaluated.
<light2yellow> aha
<light2yellow> okay
<light2yellow> so I need to wrap it in eval?
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<Bike> Do not use eval.
<beach> Don't do that.
<Bike> defvar is intended for top level.
<Bike> Usually you'd do (defvar *a* 1), and then later in some function or whatnot, have (+ *a* 2).
<light2yellow> okay, but just for understanding purposes
<Bike> What is it that you want to understand?
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<light2yellow> anyway, I see now, thanks
<ebrasca> What do yo recomend to test on my talos II?
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<light2yellow> yeah, well, I wanted to understand how can I write it all in one S-expression
<light2yellow> because from definition this is possible
<beach> (+ (progn (defvar *a* 1) *a*) 2)
<shrdlu68> You're fired!
<beach> Or (+ (symbol-value (defvar *a* 1)) 2)
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<Bike> (progn (defvar *a* 1) (+ *a* 2)), ifit'stoplevel
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<light2yellow> ah, symbol-value
<light2yellow> I was looking for it for ages
<jackdaniel> usually you carefully declare global variables at toplevel
<jackdaniel> and later you use them
<jackdaniel> wrapping defvar in other expressions is something unusual, and unusual is not something much appreciated when others read your code
<light2yellow> as I said, this is for learning purposes
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<jackdaniel> doing unintuitive things for learning purposes may teach you bad habits
<jackdaniel> but that's just my opinion
<light2yellow> no, I read books etc.
<light2yellow> which say this, of course
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<light2yellow> but yeah, anyway, thank you for pointing this out. you can't know if I am aware
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<jackdaniel> ah, Bike wrote the same above
<jackdaniel> sorry for skipping backlog
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<alandipert> i wrote a solution to a puzzle, thanks in advance for giving it a look and sharing any thoughts you might have on how it could be improved https://gist.github.com/alandipert/5cf98cba9b9709976a423e598097dac0
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<light2yellow> > The set of special operator names is fixed in Common Lisp; no way is provided for the user to define a special operator <- from http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm . so it means that I can overload, say, +, but cannot overload these? if so, why?
<beach> light2yellow: You can not change the definition of standard functions either.
<jackdaniel> alandipert: does loading external libraries count as a valid solution?
<Bike> what that says is that you can't define new special operators. it doesn't say anything about redefining the existing ones
<dlowe> due to the nature of the lisp reader, you can make it so that (+ 1 2) refers to your own +, but cl:+ will always be available and immutable
<dlowe> also, a "special operator" in lisp perhaps means something different than what it might mean in other languages
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<dlowe> more exactly, a form with a special operator doesn't follow the evaluation rules for either macros or functions
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<dlowe> well, that was a waste of exposition
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<alandipert> jackdaniel sure
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<phoe> light2yellow: you can define macros which work well enough as special operators
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<phoe> making user-implementable special operators would require that the users now have access to implementation internals and details and can essentially change their implementation at will.
<phoe> you can think of special operators as a special kind of macros that you are unable to expand because their expansion and therefore internals are hidden from the user.
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<jeosol> morning guys.
<jeosol> when you run on SBCL on terminal (i.e.., sbcl --dynamic-space-size xxx), and your application writes lots of output to terminal, can this make it freeze or it is due to something else. FYI, my program typically can run for several days
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<shrdlu68> jeosol: Writing a lot of output to stdout/stderr is not a necessary/sufficient condition for a program to freeze.
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<jeosol> shrdlu68: thanks for that. I checked two cases I was running on a local box. one froze, the other didn't.
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<jeosol> So I just checked. So I can rule that out. Those outputs help me know things are going ok. Thx
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<scymtym> if your terminal is buggy or configured with infinite scrollback, it could freeze
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<phoe> jeosol: log to something else than stdoout
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<pelle> hi, i'm trying to install Quicklisp in SBCL, but it gives me this error: Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS.
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<phoe> pelle: where did you get your SBCL from?
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<phoe> to me, it seems that you got a SBCL that was built without --fancy, and therefore without BSD socket support.
<pelle> From the package manager, in Alpine Linux
<pelle> ah ok.
<pelle> so, if I can build it with the --fancy flag, it might work?
<phoe> pelle: do the maintainers of your package know how to build SBCL?
<phoe> pelle: either that or get it from sbcl.org
<pelle> I could file a bug for it. Seems pretty bad
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<pelle> Well.. ok, another problem. In Clisp, Quicklisp *does* install, but McClim fails with this error (but maybe that's for the #clim channel): SYSTEM::%FIND-PACKAGE: There is no package with name "ASDF-USER"
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<phoe> pelle: please do. Building a distro-wide SBCL without contribs sounds like a big mistake.
<phoe> ...and CLISP does not seem to have ASDF.
<phoe> Screw whatever the maintainers there do and download SBCL from sbcl.org.
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<jeosol> phoe and scymtym: thanks for comment
<pelle> @phoe: i had some problems installing debian/ubuntu/... but alpine linux happened to work. weird laptop. but alpine linux uses musl instead of glibc
<pelle> so don't think the one on sbcl.org will work.
<jeosol> I am running on xterm. Not sure what they other one freeze, might be better logging to some where else, a file and check the file
<pelle> but i'll try. and if not, i'll file a bug. and maybe try compiling it myself.
<phoe> I have no idea if/how SBCL builds against musl. Ask #sbcl in case of any issues.
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<pelle> @phoe: wow, there's a lot of common lisp related channels. will check #sbcl out
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<jeosol> jmercoursis(?)
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<Xach> pelle: i think it's because clisp does not have asdf so it uses an old one from quicklisp.
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<pelle> Xach: yes, found out now: Clisp has an old ASDF. It's working fine in ECL though. I got some help on the #clim channel.
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<jackdaniel> it happened that some people on #clim are involved also in #ecl development ;)
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<pelle> jackdaniel: yup, and it works now. nice video introduction you've made btw
<pelle> thanks a lot
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<sjjssjjeejej> But at the end of the day language doesn't matter much, unless its specified for a particular job.. do you people agree?
<Bike> why "but"
<dlowe> to imply some continuity, that they weren't just injecting some flamebait
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<jackdaniel> day ends here and it still matters to me :-) I find pleasure in using cobol for my everyday tasks ^_^
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<beach> sjjssjjeejej: I suggest you read the excellent article by Hudak and Jones that is one of the few that reports on productivity comparisons between languages.
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<sjjssjjeejej> Okay, let's take an example. You can create a simple web application using abcde, a number of languages but when you want an application to do a specific task say, learn from its previous operations and manipulate data sets by itself, would you choose a language or go with the easily available, less hectic and Understandable by others?
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<jackdaniel> I think trolling is not on the "do" side of the netiquette, more like on "don't do"
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<Josh_2> Why ride a motorcycle when most people drive cars ya know
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<dlowe> I think for any and all technical questions, "it depends" is a perfectly good answer.
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<alandipert> does anyone know an example of delivering a macos app? in particular i am interested in implementing a menu bar item-type application
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<copec> I cut out the middle-man and just write everything in assembly
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<copec> I mean machine code, crap
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<dlowe> microcode?
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<fourier> alandipert: no problems with LispWorks/OSX. should be simple as well with CCL
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<copec> dlowe who needs abstractions
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<copec> [?]
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<copec> I wish a CL implementation would have become the python instead of python
<copec> although, better than many of the alternatives
<dlowe> we have cl-python
<copec> I just like programming and thinking in CL much better
<dlowe> though it needs updating to python3
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<drmeister> Someone made a quote at ELS about "Lisp is the best language when you don't know what you are doing"? Does anyone remember it more accurately or seen it before?
<Xach> drmeister: I've heard it said a few times in the past, I quite like it.
<Xach> Sometimes phrased in terms of "exploratory programming"
<hjek> yea, PG talks about Arc being designed for "exploratory programming" all the time
<rme> I said that, but it didn't originate with me.
<drmeister> "Exploratory programming" is what I've been saying for years.
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<rme> alandipert: Have you seen https://github.com/Clozure/dpf
<drmeister> Ok, thanks.
<alandipert> rme thanks for the pointer, exactly what i was looking for
<drmeister> On exploratory programming - here's something I posted late last night. I'm folding DNA with Cando Common Lisp.
<drmeister> It was a demo that I wanted to show at ELS and I almost got it together but then I discovered three copies of every structure in every viewing window.
<drmeister> It took me another 6 hours of debugging on the plane flying back from Spain to track down the two bugs that were causing the problem.
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<drmeister> But my undergraduate Kevin whipped up a way to connect sliders to the structure viewing windows so that I could visualize the dynamics of the optimization process (seen at about 2:50 in the movie).
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<copec> that's very cool drmeister
<drmeister> Thanks.
<drmeister> Bike, Kevslinger and my other programmer Shiho are behind a lot of that.
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<rme> http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Hindsight.html is a nice article about why Lisp is good at exploratory programming
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<rme> I kind of like the phrase "accelerating hindsight".
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<jeosol> rme: thanks for that link
<jeosol> i myself will need these resources as I convince folks about my choice of language
<drmeister> rme: Glancing at it (I'll read it carefully later) - that looks like a really nice article - thank you.
<drmeister> I haven't seen that before
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<jeosol> guys, need some help. When working with parallel code via threads, and there is an error with a thread that acquired a lock, how do I say kill that thread without having to rerun my case. I am running sbcl on the shell (no slime)
<jeosol> I can see the threads with (bt:all-threads) and I try (bt:destroy-thread ....) but I didn't quite get what I wanted
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<jeosol> When I run (bt:all-threads), I see that the status of one of the threads has something like "acquiring (or acquired) lock ..". and the other threads seem to be in normal state. Since there is an error with the thread that acquired the lock, everything stalls
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<copec> You might want to ask in #sbcl
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<jeosol> perhaps I need to think about this differently
<jeosol> ok, thanks copec, I'll head there.
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<copec> I suggest that because it seems you would need to know how bt is implemented on top of sbcl to access state of other threads
<jeosol_> I thought it just defaults to sb-threads at least on SBCL
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<devon> Any idea how to hush the CCL CFFI warning ; bare references to struct types are deprecated. Please use (:POINTER (:STRUCT ...)) or (:STRUCT ...) instead.
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<rme> That message is from CFFI (and not CCL), at least according to grep.
<copec> you are running clasp on your mac drmeister?
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<fe[nl]ix> devon: do what the warning says or file a bug with upstream devs
<devon> rme: Yes, maybe SBCL CFFI wouldn't warn. Ah, fixed by (with-foreign-slots (#1# #2# #3#) ...) -> (with-foreign-slots (#1# #2# (:struct #3)#) ...)
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<devon> er, except for the typo
<jeosol_> pls ignore by thread-related question above. got pointers from $lisp channel
<jeosol_> #lisp
<drmeister> copec: Yes
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<devon> If I decipher the warning I'd follow it -- the vague warning language is the bug.
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<kuwzre> is there a way to get company mode to support common lisp? I am using slime-company, but I wish that I could get the same sort of behavior when editing normal cl files
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<ebrasca> How to use (defun setf ... ?
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<scymtym> (defun (setf foo) (new-value [more parameters]) ...)
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<scymtym> then (setf (foo 2 3 4) 1) where new-value will be bound to 1 and more parameters to 2 3 4
* ebrasca don't undestand.
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<ebrasca> I like to make someting like (read-short-name array) and (setf (read-short-name array) "")
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<scymtym> if i understand correctly, that would be (defun (setf read-short-name) (new-value array) ...)
<ebrasca> What goes in ...
<ebrasca> (setf place new-value) ?
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<ebrasca> setf inside of other setf is strange but I think it work.
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<ebrasca> scymtym: Thank you.
<jasom> there are some cases in which defun (setf ...) will not work, for those you can use define-setf-expander
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<jasom> but that's a step up in complexity
<ebrasca> jasom: Is it easy to see if defun (setf ...) is not working?
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<jasom> ebrasca: any time you can't do what you want to do with a function
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<jasom> the usual rule of "never use a macro when a function will do" applies. If you can think of a function that will work, you don't need a setf-expander
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<ebrasca> jasom: My code now can get much better with (defun (setf
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