<Bike>
the select macro itself is a loop, so having an effective method doing that seems fine to me
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<jasom>
minion: memo for dtornabene: the defrule in plush is from esrap (a packrat parsing library)
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell dtornabene when he/she/it next speaks.
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<Bike>
does anyone know how slime parses arglists? if i do (defmethod test (&key ((:foo bar))) bar), (swank-backend:arglist 'test) => (&KEY ((:FOO BAR))), but it displays in the minibuffer as &key foo
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<SaganMan>
Morning peeps
<SaganMan>
beach: how did the lisp symposium go?
<beach>
Very well.
<beach>
Good presentations, high attendance, great discussions.
<SaganMan>
beach: nice, is it online somewhere?
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<beach>
The videos will take some time. Didier is working on putting the "slides" online.
<beach>
And I think the proceedings are online too.
<SaganMan>
beach: how did your presentation go?
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<beach>
I had two. Other people said they went well.
<SaganMan>
nice beach, that's good
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<beach>
Sure. It becomes easier with experience.
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<SaganMan>
beach: does your job also involves lisp or lisp is something you like to do as fun?
<beach>
I am a researcher, and Common Lisp is my research vehicle, so it is my job.
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<SaganMan>
nice
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<beach>
I always try to solve some practical problem. To do that, I have to invent some theory or some technique that needs to be proven to work. Then I use that theory or technique to create an implementation. Finally, I measure performance (often compared to existing techniques), and show that the new technique is better than existing ones.
<beach>
This formula works well for Common Lisp, because very little serious fundamental work has been done since the AI winter, and the reality of processors has changed radically since, so new techniques can be invented.
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<SaganMan>
That's good beach. Those new techniques and theries of yours are patented?
<beach>
No. I am fundamentally against software patents. And I was part of the movement to get the EU parliament to reject software patents by a crushing majority.
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<beach>
... so instead they are published in the proceedings of ELS and ILC.
<SaganMan>
wow, that's awesome beach
<beach>
Thanks.
<SaganMan>
beach: One last question, may I know which university you're working in?
<elderK>
beach: Yeah, it is.
<elderK>
beach: Where will the slides / videos be made available?
<elderK>
:D I'd love to see some of them.
<beach>
SaganMan: University of Bordeaux.
<beach>
elderK: Didier is working on making the "slides" available, so that should be imminent.
<SaganMan>
beach: Thanks, I will leave to your work. Good Day.
<beach>
elderK: Videos will take a bit longer.
<beach>
SaganMan: Thanks. You too. Traveling home today.
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<phoe>
heyyyy
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<ioa>
Hey phoe
<phoe>
hey ioa
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<splittist>
morning
<shrdlu68>
Morning splittist
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
Afternoon
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<Murii>
Is there something like "unless" but for loop ?
<Murii>
Basically: loop not <cond> but as its own keyword
<MichaelRaskin>
loop until ?
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<splittist>
loop has unless as a conditional
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<phoe>
Murii: (loop unless foo do (bar))
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<Xof>
morning
<Xof>
So Much Marking :-(
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<Kevslinger>
Good morning!
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<shka>
Kevslinger: hi
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<phoe>
afternoon everyone
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<everyone>
afternoon phoe
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<Kevslinger>
::time in Phoe
<Colleen>
The time in Phoe is 2018.04.20 05:18:47.
<Kevslinger>
phoe: Looks like it's still morning
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<Shinmera>
Note that you can ask Colleen for the time as it should be for /users/, not /places/, but in order to do so the person needs a profile.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: time for shinmera
<Colleen>
The time for shinmera is 2018.04.20 15:18:46.
<Kevslinger>
Colleen: time for Kevslinger
<Colleen>
I don't know where Kevslinger is located.
<Kevslinger>
Don't give me that, I know you do
<Shinmera>
Sorry, there's no AI that can track user information based on chatter yet.
<Shinmera>
On the other hand that's probably a good thing.
<Shinmera>
or rather, Colleen doesn't have such an AI
<Kevslinger>
::time in Tokyo
<Colleen>
The time in Tokyo is 2018.04.20 22:20:35.
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<Kevslinger>
ah, looks like I better head off to bed!
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<ebrasca>
Shinmera: Why it don't have AI?
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<Bike>
budget cuts
<Bike>
same reason there's no buzzsaws
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<Shinmera>
ebrasca: because AI is hard.
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<ebrasca>
Shinmera: Is it hard for you?
<Shinmera>
As hard as for everyone else.
<Bike>
i get it. i get the joke
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<rme>
My flight from Malaga was delayed so I missed my connecting flight in Paris. So, hi from a hotel in Roissy-en-France.
<Bike>
ouch.
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<antoszka>
rme: Hope they get you a nice dinner too ;)
<antoszka>
I was lucky to get all my connections to SFO on time.
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<Bike>
asked this last night but, does anyone know where slime decides what to print in the minibuffer for a function's lambda list
<Bike>
it's somehow processed from what swank returns as an arglist
<Bike>
there's only one place in slime.el that uses swank:operator-arglist but it doesn't do any further processing
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<Xof>
my memory says "slime-autodoc"
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<Xof>
we have already discussed how fallible my memory is
<Xof>
I remember that
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<Bike>
looks like you're right though
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<Bike>
thanks
<Xof>
wait, why did I come into this room again?
<Bike>
to help me with my question. it's destiny
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<Bike>
well this is pretty complicated, and i guess i can't hook things up like i wanted to
<Bike>
oh well
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<Xof>
incidentally, on the question of "why would anyone want to subclass method combination anyway?", I'm not sure! But I do wonder whether a more declarative, less arbitrary-code thing might be able to allow compute-effective-method to do some kind of smart caching
<Xof>
or rather, the class of the method combination could inform compute-effective-method whether smart caching was allowed or not
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<Bike>
compute-effective-method already turns a second value of extra information, it could include a cachep specification
<Bike>
cacheablep. of course define-method-combination would have to be altered to allow specifying an em can't be cached
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<Bike>
that kind of ties into the question of how effective methods are actually used, which is sort of its own can of worms
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<Xof>
tangled web of worms
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<Bike>
rat king
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<beach>
Yay, back home!
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<trn>
If you want a real account I plan to have all sort of forums soon :b
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<phoe>
Kevslinger: wait, there is an actual town called Phoe?
<phoe>
wow
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<Kevslinger>
beach: Congrats!
<phoe>
beach: congrats, yep!
<Kevslinger>
phoe: I started with Phoeland but couldn’t find anything. Turns out the land of phoe works just as well :)
<Shinmera>
phoe: Probably not, it's just fuzzy matching.
<phoe>
since it could be fuzzy-matching Phoenix, Arizona.
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<beach>
trn: Excellent!
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<trn>
beach: I'm working on a a web maintenance panel that will to the system with a WebSocket - so you can watch the blinkenlights of the actual system change the image on the panel that is the background of the web site. :)
<beach>
Heh, nice!
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<trn>
For the panel, it uses a lot more bandwidth than I expected it to and it can get lagged, even with compression. So now I'm working on a UDP-based protocol.
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<beach>
I actually don't think I saw the panel more than once or twice.
<beach>
Hmm, maybe I never saw it. I don't recognize it at all.
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<trn>
I'm likely going to use a 6180 panel like that, because the newer the machines got, the less lights they had, and the more you were expected to look at an operator console.
<beach>
Maybe I saw a newer machine.
<trn>
Probably, the later DPS series of machines looked more like standard racks and the half-sized ones looked like freezers :(
<trn>
On the 6180 and others I've seen and read the more interesting panels were on the inside of the cabinet doors
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<beach>
Got it. I should figure out what machine I was working on.
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<trn>
It's sort of interesting to me that Honeywell absolutely refused to the idea of a bus in their larger system, and the whole 'bus' was sort of a dirty word - they even abused the 'multiplexer' terminology to avoid 'bus' because they did everything point to point for latency and performance reasons.
<beach>
I had no idea.
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<trn>
Yeah, it's sort of crazy, so attaching 8 CPU's to 8 IOM's needs 64 ports dedicated to that.
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<trn>
The virtual machines 'wiring' code makes this all so much easier than setting these machines up in real life, I'd imagine :)
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<beach>
trn: I need to go help my (admittedly small) family. We just came home from a week at ELS and there is much work to catch up on.
<trn>
Enjoy!
<trn>
I'll come back and bother you all later - on my todo list is to get the original ITS maclisp ELIZA and SHRDLU code working on multics :)
<Kevslinger>
::time in Phoenix
<Colleen>
The time in Phoenix is 2018.04.20 09:34:59.
<Kevslinger>
::time in Phoe
<Colleen>
The time in Phoe is 2018.04.20 09:35:04.
<Kevslinger>
phoe: darn :(
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<ebrasca>
beach: hi
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<makomo>
i'm looking at the postmodern library for postgresql. can someone tell me the rationale for the global *database* variable instead of having a database parameter in every function?
<makomo>
i've also seen some other libraries do this. what's the philosophy behind this?
<random-nick>
why would you need a parameter if you have a global variable
<jackdaniel>
you can bind it dynamically (so you are not tied to global database)
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<jackdaniel>
so usually you bind a context and call functions
<makomo>
well, i know that global variables in lisp aren't the same thing as in other languages
<makomo>
is that the main reason?
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<makomo>
the fact that they have dynamic scope?
<jackdaniel>
it simplifies api as well, having dynamic scope makes it possible
<makomo>
one thing that isn't clear to me yet is, how does multithreading interact with dynamic scope?
<jackdaniel>
it may get tedious to carry all contextual varibles to each call of every function (even if function itself doesn't use database at all)
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<makomo>
does every thread have its own *something*?
<makomo>
for example, one thread wants to call the api with one database object, another with another database object
<makomo>
both will be bound to *database*
<jackdaniel>
usually (because there are no threads in CL standard), dynamic bindings are shallow, that means they are not "inherited" from the parent thread (global values are taken)
<makomo>
what happens?
<jackdaniel>
you may also specify default initial bindings
<jackdaniel>
I'd recommend reading bordeaux-threads documentation which gives some examples how to do that (and that's basically what implementations do)
<makomo>
ah, i'll take a look. what does it mean that "global values are taken"?
<makomo>
so only the topmost dynamic scope is inherited?
<makomo>
i.e. the global one?
<jackdaniel>
yes
<gonzojive>
Anybody else share a desire for the following SLIME auto completion behavior? "cl-cor:m-co" <tab> -> "cl-coroutine:make-coroutine"
<jackdaniel>
unless you provide your own initial bindings
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<jackdaniel>
one important note: when you create threads *always* wrap them in handler-case, even if you do not plan to handle errors
<makomo>
jackdaniel: i see. but the threads have their own completely separate dynamic environements? the binding for *database* in one thread isn't the same thing as the binding for *database* in another?
<jackdaniel>
otherwise you'll most likely miss unwind-protect clause
<jackdaniel>
;-> this will yield 8 and 3 being printed
<jackdaniel>
Bike: because otherwise, if you don't catch error somewhere, your thread simply crashes
<jackdaniel>
and there is no way for implementation to run all cleanup forms
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<Bike>
so you mean have your thread function do everything in a handler case?
<jackdaniel>
this behavior happens at least on sbcl and ecl, but I would be suprised if ccl handles it gracefully
<jackdaniel>
yes, more or less. unless you are sure that no error will pass to the toplevel
<jackdaniel>
you don't have a debugger in a thread by default
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<isoraqathedh>
How do I invoke a restart on errors emitted by SBCL? e.g. for sb-int:stream-decoding-error, I want to invoke input-replacement, but there's no symbol named that in either sb-int, sb-ext or sb-impl.
<makomo>
jackdaniel: and rebinding *foo* to something else within the second thread will have no effect on the binding of *foo* in the first thread, correct? so the threads have separate own dynamic environments
<jackdaniel>
or you are sure that there are no unwind-protect in your code (in with-lock-held)
<jackdaniel>
in example*
<Bike>
isoraqathedh: well you have to find the symbol. i couldn't tell you what it is, though
<jackdaniel>
makomo: yes. that's the behavior of implementations
<Bike>
there's an sb-impl::input-replacement
<Bike>
but the :: kind of means you're not supposed to useit
<jackdaniel>
but once again, there is no mention of threads in cl standard. different techniques are discussed for instance in a book Lisp in Small Pieces
<Bike>
(or, that sbcl devs forgot to export it)
<isoraqathedh>
Hey, that works fine!
<makomo>
jackdaniel: mhm, i understand
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<isoraqathedh>
It really is a little bit difficult to search for restart names. The default SLIME outputs only show the name of the package, not the package it's in.
<jackdaniel>
and that's all help I can provide right now, it is our last night in Marbella and we plan to have a delightful dinner :-) laters
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<makomo>
jackdaniel: cheers, have fun :-)
<Bike>
isoraqathedh: i used apropos
<isoraqathedh>
A-ah.
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<doanyway>
is there something similar to a study path for game programmer for common lisp ? I am still working through pcl
<doanyway>
jackdaniel: I will if we both live long enough
<White_Flame>
paip is practical, and about lisp. aima is more conceptual, and about AI
<Bike>
i'm pretty sure they have different goals.
<Bike>
'
<White_Flame>
the book Land Of Lisp teaches lisp through games
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<White_Flame>
but not typical graphical games
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<White_Flame>
repl-based games and some that display graphics via web browser
<doanyway>
White_Flame: I finished land of lisp - pcl has been more helpful for my understanding
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<ebrasca>
doanyway: PCL is my favorite.
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<doanyway>
ebrasca: I am liking it but I am only halfway through it - taking awhile
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<Murii_>
check if is file is directory ?
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<ebrasca>
Murii: What do you mean?
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<webchat296_>
Hello SBCL question. What I have to do make sure when I execute the saved lisp image it gives me a REPL after executing the toplevel lambda? Currently it executes the toplevel and quits. (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "./sayhello" :toplevel #'(lambda () (format t "hello")) :executable t)
<webchat296_>
ah bad formatting
<webchat296_>
SBCL question. What I have to do make sure when I execute the saved lisp image it gives me a REPL after executing the toplevel lambda? Currently it executes the toplevel and quits.
<jasom>
webchat296_: internally uiop replaces the toplevel function with one that calls its own hooks
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<webchat296_>
jasom: uiop/image:dump-image also kills the current process
<jasom>
If you only want to use sbcl, then you can set *image-entry-point* to be sb-impl::toplevel-init and it should work, but that's specific to sbcl
<jasom>
webchat296_: this is common for lisps that dump images
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<Bike>
webchat296_: "[save lisp and die] corrupts the current Lisp image enough that the current process needs to be killed afterwards." says the sbcl manual.
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<webchat296_>
jasom/Bike: so far this is what i have:
<webchat296_>
(defparameter *data* "really big data")
<jasom>
webchat296_: note that using sb-impl::toplevel-init as the entry point is a hack, you may want to ask on sbcl if there is a better way to save an image that can run some hooks and then enter the REPL.
<jasom>
ask on #sbcl rather
<webchat296_>
jasom: ah i see
<jasom>
If this is just a quick-and-dirty environment you're using for a few days and will throw away, maybe don't spend time on finding the Right Way, but otherwise it may be worth digging deeper
<aeth>
Data you don't want to reload all of the time? If you make really-big-data in a macro, you can do this (I use it with shaders) to create what effectively becomes a compile time constant: (defmethod make-load-form ((object shader) &optional environment) (make-load-form-saving-slots object :environment environment))
<aeth>
Then the functions I create with define-shader are trivial functions that just return the constant shader object, with a constant shader source string, etc.
<Bike>
i already suggested using a fasl
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<aeth>
Oh, in case I was unclear, I have a macro define-shader that creates the shader object... in the macro. So it goes roughly like this: `(defun ,name () ,(make-instance 'shader ...)) where all of the slots are created by functions run at the macro time, not at runtime.
<jasom>
webchat296_: that looks like it will do what you want and you can just use the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die without a :toplevel
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<webchat296_>
jasom: cool. now my goal is to fork the process and do the image-dumping in the child. then the parent lives on and i get to save snapshots.
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<simplegauss>
i think i have found a rather strange optimization bug in sbcl, can anyone explain why this happens and/or how to get around it and if it really is a bug? code: https://pastebin.com/z3pb4nA9 . the problem is that it appears if i have a macro that expands to a lambda function, it is optimized differently than if it is handwritten, which is very confusing to me. More confusingly, if I add a layer of "flet" (please see code) to the macro,
<simplegauss>
the optimization kicks in properly again, despite the fact i'm just copying the same code twice (again, this is confusing in text but clear in the short example)
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<pfdietz2>
This has been fixed in the SBCL repo I believe. Build SBCL from current source and see if it fixes it.
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<simplegauss>
pfdietz2: great! now the scary question: is there a guide to building SBCL on windows? it seems to even be a few versions back on the website
<simplegauss>
pfdietz2: and from an academic point of view, do you know why such a thing happened? it seems it should have been impossible in any reasonable implementation of macroexpansion
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<jasom>
webchat296_: FYI forking on sbcl is only supported if you haven't created any threads
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<webchat296_>
jasom: is that so? ah .. then do I have to kill all "non-main" threads before doing the fork?
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<jasom>
webchat296_: I think that will work. The issue is that sbcl in the child process doesn't know the fork has happend, and threading plus fork() isn't really well defined to begin with, so if the GC is invoked off of the main thread, Bad Things happen.
<webchat296_>
jasom: what did you mean when you said "the child process doesn't know the fork has happend" ?
<jasom>
webchat296_: I mean the SBCL runtime doesn't
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<webchat296_>
jasom: i see
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<phoe>
webchat296_: actually
<jasom>
webchat296_: obviously sb-posix:fork could be changed to do all the work that it required for this to work correctly, but it would be non-portable since posix doesn't define what happens to pthreads on fork
<phoe>
webchat296_: I remember that shka was playing with sb-posix:fork a little bit
<jasom>
so just don't use threads and it's a non-problem
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<webchat296_>
jasom: no threads will mean i can't use slime :-S
<jasom>
webchat296_: I think there is a single-threaded slime option, but you lose some features
<webchat296_>
jasom: i see .. i'll have to look into that
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<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: what do you mean by "posix doesn't define what happens to pthreads on fork" ?
<p_l>
fe[nl]ix: well, the state of threads is UB iirc
<p_l>
though if you have full control over threads in your application, you can actually do a safe fork() with threads
<jasom>
sorry, it's actually safe so long as you only call async-signal-safe operations until exec is called
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<jasom>
A process shall be created with a single thread. If a multi-threaded process calls fork(), the new process shall contain a replica of the calling thread and its entire address space, possibly including the states of mutexes and other resources. Consequently, to avoid errors, the child process may only execute async-signal-safe operations until such time as one of the exec functions is called. [THR] [Option
<jasom>
Start] Fork handlers may be established by means of the pthread_atfork() function in order to maintain application invariants across fork() calls
<p_l>
I believe the problem is getting all threads to sane state in usual programs (read C-derived)
<jasom>
So, would a without-gcing fork/exec be safe in sbcl?
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<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: you don't need to block the GC
<jasom>
fe[nl]ix: ah, there are no threads in the child process, so as long as you don't cons, it won't invoke the GC?
<fe[nl]ix>
yes
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<jasom>
does that work on CCL as well?
* jasom
was using spawn for something, but the lack of a chdir in spawn was making things difficult
<jasom>
and I assume save-lisp-and-die runs the GC so you can't fork/s-l-a-d
<fe[nl]ix>
so what's safe is to fork, and the child only accesses memory that was allocated outside the GC heap, e.g. stack / C heap / mmap'd memory
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<jasom>
fe[nl]ix: so I'd neet to foreign alloc all the parameters to exec before forking
<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: use IOlib :) I believe I added the option to chdir
<fe[nl]ix>
yes, that's what I do in IOlib, copy everything to C heap
<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: I plan to make delivery much easier, I just need to find some time
<fe[nl]ix>
but still not Windows support
<jasom>
fe[nl]ix: well I can handle windows in it's own file if I have a unix one that works widely without people having to install a non-lisp library or have cc in their path
<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: the plan is to track SBCL, libfixposix and the Debian port of openssl
<fe[nl]ix>
and rebuild a new SBCL binary with openssl and libfixposix statically linked whenever there's a release or a security update
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<fe[nl]ix>
that way you don't need to futz with libfixposix.so and libssl.so any more
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<jasom>
fe[nl]ix: and sbcl will upstream this?
<fe[nl]ix>
definitely not
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<jasom>
oh, I'd have to distribute binaries then
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<fe[nl]ix>
I would distribute those binaries, and people can use them instead of the official ones
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<gonzojive>
Straw poll: which SLIME completion algorithm do you use? I have been using slime c-p-c, but I'm curious about fuzzy completion
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<Bike>
fuzz.
<Bike>
no wait, maybe cpc. who knows
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<kerrhau>
does anyone know where SBCL searches for foreign libraries?
<kerrhau>
I'm trying to load SDL2 but it keeps erroring that it cant load the library