jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<jack_rabbit> o/
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<stacksmith> Good morning Beach.
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<beach> stacksmith: What's up?
<beach> stacksmith: What are you working on?
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<stacksmith> I've been working on a some XCB bindings and freetype fonts with really nice subpixel antialiasing...
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<beach> Sounds good.
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<drmeister> Is there an option for ql:quickload to get more info on the build?
<drmeister> (ql:quickload "something" :verbose t) doesn't produce an error - and it doesn't provide any more info.
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<jack_rabbit> drmeister, Hmm. If I pass :verbose t, I definitely see more compilation output.
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<drmeister> I'm just seeing...
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<jack_rabbit> What lisp are you running?
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<rme> maybe you are just loading fasls?
<drmeister> I'm running Cando
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<jack_rabbit> I don't know what cando is.
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<drmeister> It's a new implementation of Common Lisp.
<jack_rabbit> ahh.
<drmeister> Has #lisp forgotten me?
<jack_rabbit> Definitely when I remove my fasls, I get a lot more compilation messages.
<easye> Isn't clasp the new implementation, and cando an application? Or have you rebranded?
<drmeister> Tricky - I'm building in a docker image. I'll have to sort it out tomorrow.
<jack_rabbit> drmeister, I remember you. I haven't heard of cando, though. :)
<drmeister> Clasp is the new implementation. Cando is a superset.
<drmeister> Dammit - I've been getting this over and over and over.
<jack_rabbit> I see. Yes, I'm familiar with clasp.
<bjorkintosh> the combination of commonlisp and c++ right drmeister?
<drmeister> In a docker image, on linux and my backtraces there are sh*t
<drmeister> Yes
<jack_rabbit> Looks like a GC or escape analysis issue,
<bjorkintosh> which subset of c++ are you using?
<drmeister> No subset - all of it.
<jack_rabbit> says me, knowing almost exactly nothing about what I'm looking at.
<bjorkintosh> Whoa!!
* jack_rabbit thinks bjorkintosh was making a joke. :)
<drmeister> No - more likely it's (pathname (probe-file xxxx)) and xxxx is not found.
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<drmeister> If I knew what xxxx was I'd be a whole lot happier.
<bjorkintosh> nah man. c++ is a multiparadigm language.
<jack_rabbit> drmeister, Why does that result in a stack-frame pointer error?
<bjorkintosh> I wondered if he was using the C part or the Template or the OO bits or these days, even the functional part
<drmeister> Because I'm jitting code and llvm jitted code doesn't play well with backtraces.
<drmeister> on linux
<drmeister> in docker containers.
<jack_rabbit> bjorkintosh, My favorite joke has become that C++ is now functional, but just barely. ;)
<jackdaniel> drmeister: that'd make a good urban legend: programmer starts debugging particularily hard bug -when he's done and comes out of his basement nothing is the same, he can't recognize anything from both real and virtual world
<jackdaniel> nobody remembers him
<jackdaniel> apparently debugging lisp took a little longer than he thought
<drmeister> How do I debug a problem when quicklisp is building code?
<bjorkintosh> hah.
<bjorkintosh> but should it be?
<jack_rabbit> jackdaniel, I like this very much.
<jack_rabbit> jackdaniel, like when doomsdayers come out of their bunkers...
<drmeister> It's not happening on macOS. Grrrr
<jack_rabbit> What's that movie?
<jack_rabbit> bjorkintosh, unfortunately, if history is anything to go by, both C++ and Java will probably continue to bolt semantics for whatever the latest trend is.
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<jack_rabbit> *bolt on*
<jack_rabbit> Not that functional programming is itseld a trend, but it is currently trendy.
<jack_rabbit> itself* damn it...
<bjorkintosh> yes jack_rabbit. it's a record of the most popular trends.
<bjorkintosh> archivists will one day simply have to look at the different c++ versions to determine what the cutting edge in computer science was.
<bjorkintosh> Right? Right? (right??)
<jack_rabbit> lol
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<Shinmera> Does anyone have a collection of implementation-dependent tests to determine whether a symbol denotes a type? I know how to test for conditions, structures, and standard-objects, but not types otherwise.
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<pierpa> is (SUBTYPEP symbol T) enough? If not, what do you need it for?
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<Bike> that's difficult. implementations can vary which types are also classes, and how they do type macroexpansion, and so on
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<Bike> typexpand was already annoying to do across implementstions, as i remember
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<Shinmera> pierpa: I don't think that's guaranteed to provide anything useful.
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<Shinmera> I need it in order to determine whether a type-definition should be emitted in my documentation system.
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<Shinmera> Bike: Right. I don't even need to type expand though, just to know whether a symbol names a type at all.
<beach> Shinmera: Are you putting together one of those TRIVIAL- libraries?
<Shinmera> No, it's for Staple.
<Shinmera> But if others would find it useful, I could.
<Bike> it sounds like you only need to know about user deftypes, in which case typexpand would do it
<beach> It sounds like it would be a very useful library to have. And it would include TYPE-EXPAND.
<pierpa> Guarantee or not, why an implementation shouldn't be reasinable?
<Bike> my introspect-environment has typexpand, but only on a couple implementations
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<Bike> (you only need ccl::%deftype-expander, ofc)
<Shinmera> pierpa: subtypep is a much more complex operation than simply testing whether a type exists.
<pierpa> Subtypep of t?
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<Shinmera> it could return T for subtypep for inexistent types too
<Shinmera> at least if I remember correctly.
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<pierpa> I can't see anything allowing this in the hs. Just reread to be sure.
<Bike> is there anything disallowing it?
<pierpa> Yes, the hs
<Bike> how's that?
<Bike> it doesn't mention any errors, it just says the arguments are type specifiers, which means using non type specifiers is UB, rather than defined to be an error
<pierpa> Because of my interpretation of the English words contained in the hs
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<jjkola> hi
<beach> Hello jjkola
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<puchacz> hi, in sbcl, if sb-ext:process-exit-code returns nil, does it mean process either crashed or is still running?
<puchacz> (linux)
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<k-stz> puchacz: why not just test it? there are calls to query it, like `process-status'
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<k-stz> lastly there is an irc channel dedicated to #sbcl
<puchacz> k-stz: thanks for the info on new channel :)
<puchacz> yeah, I tested it and it seems to behave this way
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<puchacz> actually it seems that it is nil only when it is still running
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<k-stz> puchacz: if you check out the sbcl source, the exit-code is just a slot in a "process defstruct", which is nil on initilazation. The code also looks easy to understand at first glance
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<puchacz> k-stz: thanks again
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<puchacz> how can I add 2 reader features please? I would like #+(linux sbcl)
<Xach> puchacz: OR is one option
<Shinmera> clhs 24.1.2.1
<Xach> puchacz: or AND
<puchacz> I want AND
<puchacz> Xach: thanks
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<puchacz> can I optimize a specific package for speed?
<puchacz> specifically, the "zip" package
<puchacz> I have no business in debugging it for example
<puchacz> or maybe optimize everything for speed except my package?
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<Fare> yes you can
<Fare> you can also run it in its own thread
<Fare> or subprocess
<Fare> for compressing logs, I use xz -9 in a subprocess, which also reduces the GC pressure.
<Fare> "APPLY is the EVAL twin."
<puchacz> Fare: I meant something like (declare (optimize (speed 3)))
<puchacz> how is it supposed to work anyway? if I put it in dot file in cl-user, will it apply to everything?
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<Fare> puchacz: it is not currently supposed to work
<Fare> puchacz: the way it works is you put (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) in every file where you want that setting.
<puchacz> Fare: in sbcl? I am trying to do it in lispworks
<puchacz> sbcl is fine speedwise as it is
<Fare> OR you use an around-compile handler in ASDF to (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3))) around the compilation of your files.
<puchacz> Fare: sounds better
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<puchacz> how do I do it pls?
<Fare> note the difference between declaim and proclaim
<puchacz> I don't understand these things :(
<puchacz> this is why I wrote "declare" above
<puchacz> declare is for function bodies only, isn't it?
<|3b|> DECLARE is for forms that accept DECLARE :p
<puchacz> and proclaim and declaim?
<|3b|> (functions, LOCALLY, LET, etc)
<|3b|> those are global
<|3b|> one is a function, other is macro with compile-time side effects
<Fare> go read the CLHS about the difference and/or experiment at the REPL.
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<puchacz> ok, and this compiler hook?
<puchacz> it certainly sounds better than modifying all the files in quicklisp
<puchacz> and then modifying them back if I want to debug after all
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* |3b| would first try just deleting .fasl cache, declaim speed or whatever, and load the system and see if it actually gets noticeably faster before doing complicated things to make it permanent
<puchacz> |3b| fasl deleted, but where to put (declaim (optimize (speed 3)) if it is supposed to be in every file?
<|3b|> i mean just at repl
<puchacz> ah
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<puchacz> sounds like I want (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3))))
<puchacz> in .lispworks
<Bike> that's just declaim
<puchacz> it says "is always in force unless locally shadowed."
<Bike> (macroexpand-1 '(declaim (optimize speed))) => equivalent to what you wrote
<puchacz> Bike: so why Fare said I should do it in every file?
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<Bike> fare was talking in the context of a handler function
<Bike> in which case it's executing like anything else so you don't need eval-when stuff
<puchacz> so if I (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) in .lispworks in cl-user package, will it just work globally "unless shadowed" somewhere?
<puchacz> then remove .fasls and restart
<pjb> yes.
<puchacz> thanks
<puchacz> I will try :)
<pjb> I would do: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 3)))
<pjb> If you're crazy, you mean do: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 0)))
<pjb> I should write "Crazy", instead of "crazy" :-)
<puchacz> pjb: I want to see how fast lispworks can go. by default 32 bit linux lispworks is much slower than 64 bit linux sbcl.
* |3b| wouldn't change space debug or safety :p
<|3b|> (at least without specific testing)
<pjb> You'd have to test, it depends on the implementatioan.
<|3b|> yeah
<pjb> But usually debug 0 and space 3 allows it to generate faster code.
<puchacz> I thought space vs speed is a famous tradeoff....
<puchacz> so if I just say speed 3, it will do whatever is needed
<pjb> It is, but for code, smaller code means fewer memory accesses, and therefore more speed.
<puchacz> ok, I will try
<pjb> now, space is both code size and run-time space, which may be a little oxymoronic.
<pjb> smaller code = simplier code = bigger data. If you optimize for smaller data you may need to use bigger code…
<pjb> they should have specified code-size and data-size instead of space…
* |3b| notes that salza2 (used by zip) already has some OPTIMIZE SPEED declarations, so global setting might not help it much
<puchacz> |3b| yes, but I noticed that slowness is also in my html processing
<puchacz> parsing, serializing
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<puchacz> these declarations are not helping much
<Fare> puchacz: what are you doing?
<puchacz> doing a lot of HTML processing. maybe I "broke" lispworks by replacing standard functions by unicode functions
<puchacz> something I need to check
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<puchacz> in one HTML the difference is massive. in the other - not so much. so my unicode "fix" has definitely something to do with it
<puchacz> I did (:shadowing-import-from #:unicode-hack #:char-equal #:char-not-equal ....)
<puchacz> and so on
<puchacz> and inside :unicode-hack, it maps to lispworks:unicode-both-case-p etc.
<puchacz> lispworks has unicode aware functions, but under different names
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<puchacz> I just need to drill down to individual steps I guess. unzipping, parsing html, processing, serializing.....
<puchacz> and I really want unicode
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<jeosol> Morning everyone. Blessed is he who hacks lisp ...
<asarch> How would you declare a function like: (get-coords #'sin 10) (get-coords #'cos 15)?
<asarch> (defun get-coords (x y) (x y)) I get: undefined function: X
<malice> use funcall
<malice> (funcall x y)
<asarch> Thank you!
<asarch> Thank you very much :-)
<malice> Common Lisp is Lisp-2, meaning that it has two namespaces; values and functions rest in different namespaces
<malice> your code would be valid in scheme(the function call part)
<malice> since it has one namespace for both
<malice> in Common Lisp, if you store function as a value of a symbol, you need to use funcall
<asarch> I see
<malice> No problem.
<asarch> Thank you very much once again :-)
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<Fare> puchacz, if you care about raw speed, maybe you should stick to SBCL
<puchacz> Fare: delivery is much worse
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<puchacz> I use sbcl for server, but I have a fantasy of stand alone applications
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<Fare> puchacz: what about producing a statically-linked executable with SBCL ?
<Fare> cffi has the basic capability for it
<puchacz> Fare: not for android I take?
<Fare> and/or bazel
<Fare> oh, android.
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<puchacz> but for windows and linux, if it is possible, I may want to explore
<puchacz> Fare: shall I google for bazel?
<Fare> I suppose you could produce sbcl output for android, though the interface would be in a separate java binary
<Fare> bazelisp
<Fare> though it doesn't seem to be maintained
<puchacz> this is how lispworks works anyway
<puchacz> your app is in .so but you have to call java and be callable from java
<puchacz> ah, not maintained :(
<puchacz> I think realistically I need to use lispworks if I want standalone apps
<Fare> ecl ?
<puchacz> never tried
<puchacz> I know maxima on android uses ecl
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<Fare> I never used ecl on android
<Fare> and on laptop lispworks is nicer for interactive use
<pjb> asarch: (defun get-coords (x y) (list x y)) or (defun get-coords (f x) "Calls f with x as argument." (funcall f x))
<aeth> Most packaged games (e.g. game jams, etc.) tend to use SBCL, except for on Android.
<puchacz> Fire: lispworks is good enough, I think I can force some performance out of it.
<puchacz> aeth: really? I did not know they existed
<Fare> lispworks compiles fast. The code it produces is OK.
<puchacz> aeth: any specific examples you can think of?
<Fare> there is sbcl for arm, etc. So you could run it on android. It's just that you then need some RPC to the java or javascript interface
<puchacz> s/Fire/Fare/ sorry
<puchacz> Fare: I fear there be dragons
<puchacz> if it is not widely used
<aeth> These game jams tend to produce standalone binaries. Most of the CL entries use SBCL afaik. https://github.com/lispgames/lispgames.github.io/wiki/Lisp-Game-Jams
<puchacz> aeth: thanks, I will check how they are built
<puchacz> Fare: did you notice that lispworks without "patching" like I did does not use unicode across standard string and character functions?
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<puchacz> also, pjb - why is it "Crazy" to switch safety to 0? is it possible that (+ 5 nil) will return a value for example?
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<aeth> puchacz: In SBCL, setting safety to 0 removes type checks and bounds checks. Other implementations might behave similarly, or might ignore a safety 0 and always enforce safety.
<puchacz> aeth: so accessing index of vector out of bounds will not signal anything, just return a value? or store a value?
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<_death> it may signal a HAVE-A-GOOD-DAY condition
<puchacz> (that's for bound checks) and for type checks, it will get an area in memory, say it is "integer" and like in C - no matter what there was, I will get an integer
<aeth> The problem is with something like this: (setf (aref foo 42) #xffffff)
<Bike> it could crash
<aeth> Now you're setting arbitrary memory
<aeth> (assuming foo is size 3 or something)
<puchacz> aeth: ok, so I will not change safety :)
<aeth> well, safety 1 is probably what you think safety 0 should be
<puchacz> it is implementation dependant anyway, so I take your word for sbcl, and I may check with lispworks support what they mean by 0 or 1
<puchacz> Bike: crashing is not as bad as continuing to operate incorrectly
<Bike> the point is there's a lot of things it could do
<puchacz> yes, I got it now
<puchacz> sbcl will crash on any uncaught signal/error whatever if you disable debugger, which is what I do for server
<puchacz> and this is what we want, no? something unexpected, restart sbcl, rather than hang on [1] to use value [2] to abort etc.
<puchacz> there is nobody to hit 1 or 2
<puchacz> do you agree with this for server?
<puchacz> (and it runs in screen)
<pierpa_> lispworks describes very well what they do in their excellent documentation
<aeth> If you're going to make assumptions that work some places but not others #+foo is probably a good idea
<puchacz> pierpa_ tks, I may check but so far I estabilished that even with speed 3 my program is way too slow, so I need to dig into details....
<pierpa_> right. But no need to ask their support
<aeth> puchacz: Try pre-allocating things before loops
<aeth> Repeatedly making garbage can really slow things down.
<puchacz> I use this cxml-20110619-git for HTML processing. Maybe I should try plump?
<epony> ongoing joke: Sun, Apr 01 Apple Computer founded, 1976
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<pierpa_> That's 42 years ago. Maybe *this* was the question?
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<epony> Must have been a Thursday.
<puchacz> pierpa_: do you use lispworks?
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<pierpa_> puchacz: currently not, in the past yes.
<puchacz> pierpa_: did you have to hack / patch unicode?
<puchacz> my way works but it slows things down a lot
<pierpa_> can't help about this, sorry
<puchacz> ok, no worries
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<pjb> puchacz: yes, I would expect some implementation to return something strange for (+ 5 nil) with (optimize (safety 0)). Happily, abcl, clisp, ccl, ecl or sbcl still signal a type error. But ISTR that some commercial implementation would just crash or return garbage.
<pjb> basically, safety 0 means: do like C compilers do…
<pjb> Hence the *C*razy.
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<aeth> pjb: (+ 5 nil) will probably be an error. (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (+ 5 x)) (foo nil) might not be an error. Looks like it is still an error in SBCL, though.
<aeth> I suppose it's a matter of if it can be detected at compile time or not. safety 0 is probably more about runtime safety.
<aeth> Oh, okay, I simply didn't tell it to trust x. (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (declare (fixnum x)) (+ 5 x)) (foo nil) => 268959760
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<aeth> Surprisingly, this also is unsafe even though bar isn't safety 0 and SBCL knows the function signature of foo requires a fixnum: (defun bar () (foo nil))
<frgo> Hpwdy. Q for the gurus here: Does anybody know the state of affairs of xcvb (https://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/doc/README.html)? Thanks a bunch for feedback.
<Shinmera> It is abandonware.
<frgo> Shinmera: Oh? Not good.
<frgo> Thanks.
<Shinmera> It was abandoned because it didn't catch on.
<frgo> So, ASDF. ok.
<Shinmera> Well it was meant to supersede ASDF.
<frgo> I know. That's why I asked.
<aeth> What I'd like to see in a build system is a build system that can put everything into one compilation unit (which is typically one file) for a final executable distribution. There seems to be three levels of compiler information: internal to a function, internal to a compilation unit (normally a file), and everything else. One compilation unit might generate more efficient *and* safer code.
<aeth> (At the cost of inflexibility: you'd have to recompile the whole thing at once)
<scymtym> frgo: iirc, for the parallel build component mentioned there, poiu, some work has been done relatively recently to integrate it into asdf. i don't remember the outcome, though
<Shinmera> aeth: ASDF can concatenate all sources for you.
<aeth> Shinmera: great, does anyone do this when building an executable?
<Shinmera> aeth: Not for an executable, but for things that should be shippable as source I do.
<frgo> scymtym: oh - thanks for the pointer.
<random-nick> a part of sqlite3's build process is merging all of the files into one big file
<random-nick> they do it mainly for performance reasons
<random-nick> but it's also easier to distribute the source when it's just one big file
<aeth> It might make a big difference in my game engine, which for practical purposes is split into many files that aren't that big
<Shinmera> and then just run (asdf:make :system)
<aeth> It doesn't do that all of the time, does it?
<Shinmera> does what all the time
<aeth> It would make development much harder, but the final result potentially much faster.
<aeth> The build/make thing
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<Shinmera> it does it whenever you run make
<aeth> Is make run all of the time through Quicklisp or is it a packaging step?
<Shinmera> loading and make-ing a system are different things.
<aeth> Where is the result of make? I can't seem to find it
<Shinmera> in the source directory
<aeth> ah, I see, it makes a new .lisp
<aeth> Oh, wow, it even loads all of the dependencies
<aeth> I see. It was probably instant because I have an SSD. The expected delay is when compiling that new, large file.
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<drmeister> What is DRIBBLE for? Does it serve a purpose anymore?
<Shinmera> recording a repl session to file.
<drmeister> Does it do anything for SLIME?
<Shinmera> probably only really useful if you're stuck on a TTY.
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<Bike> it's pretty obsolete
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<pjb> drmeister: in the unix philosophy, you would use something like: tty-rec clasp ; but in the lisp philosophy, it's batteries included ;-)
<pjb> drmeister: slime runs the commands in separate threads, it doesn't use the implementation REPL. To provide a conforming REPL, slime would have to implement its own dribble mechanism.
<pjb> drmeister: I don't think it's obsolete. It's useful for example, when you develop. You will keep trying your code at the REPL. If you took care to call dribble to save it to a file, you can then take this file and extract from it your tries to write a test for your new code.
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<pjb> It's also like .bash_history. Sometimes you want to check out what you did back in time.
<pjb> I used to call dribble in my rc file, recoding all my lisp sessions.
<dTal> that sentence was nasty
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<equwal> pjb: How do you use Lisp if not with slime?
<equwal> Or did, as it may be.
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<pjb> equwal: before slime, I used it with inferior-lisp and my own emacs commands for C-x C-e.
<pjb> equwal: there was also ilisp; in both cases, inferior-lisp uses the native repl directly, so dribble works.
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<_death> pjb: well, unix has the "script" command
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<pierpa_> people don't realize there was cl before slime :)
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<z3t0> hi
<z3t0> can someone point me to some source code for a fairly small project that demonstrates recommended ways for organizing projects?
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<pjb> z3t0: there's no recommended way, no straightjacket. Small projects can be stored in a single file. Bigger projects need more organization, that will depend on the size and structure of the project.
<pjb> z3t0: the only thing nowadays, is that it's convenient to provide an asd file so that we may easily compile, load and test your project.
<z3t0> Okay got it
<pjb> z3t0: otherwise, you can check a lot of examples, in quicklisp.
<z3t0> one more thing
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<z3t0> currently I have two slime repls open in emacs, however my commands are going to the wrong one (such as compile)
<z3t0> How can I switch to the other one?
<Bike> M-x slime-next-connection
<z3t0> thanks
<z3t0> that worked
<Xach> cl-ppcre is good
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