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<slyrus_>
I'm trying to upgrade an old package to the newer, cleaner style of ASDF system definition.
<slyrus_>
My problem is that I have a library that defines some ASDF components and another library that uses those. I was hoping defsystem-depends-on would solve my problem, but it doesn't seem to work as expected.
<slyrus_>
Is there a good example of how one uses defsystem-depends-on to load a library that defines a new asdf component type to be used in the original ASDF system definition?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<slyrus_>
morning beach. Ah, if I quote my symbol name from the package that doesn't yet exist (but is named in the defsystem-depends-on list), then things work.
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<slyrus_>
sorry, there should have been a return after "beach".
<beach>
I got it.
<edgar-rft>
(return-from beach)
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<logoman>
I mean other than being anonymous functions is there more to lambdas
<logoman>
I asked this question because somewhere i read that java's lambda are real lambda because it is just a syntactic sugar
<logoman>
Are *not real
<phoe>
we're not in Java here. in Lisp, anonymous functions are as function...like? as named functions.
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<phoe>
other than being anonymous functions, there's this little tidbit that macro LAMBDA expands into FUNCTION lambda, so (lambda () 42) expands into #
<phoe>
#'(lambda () 42)
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<phoe>
which is then treated as a special form naming a function.
<logoman>
Ok, thank you
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<logoman>
If i say lambda is syntactic sugar for function. Is that correct?
<phoe>
nope
<edgar-rft>
no, because in Lisp an anonymous function can also be stored in a variable
<phoe>
FUNCTION is a special operator which evaluates to the functional object
<logoman>
Could you please point me to a good link so i can understand lambdas better and properly
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<beach>
It is interesting that a constructor for functions appears to be more difficult to understand than (say) a constructor for class instances.
<phoe>
beach: it was the same way to me.
<phoe>
I was never taught to understand functions as first-class citizens. It was only after Lisp when I figured out anonymous functions.
<beach>
I believe you. And probably to me too (I can't remember). I just find it interesting.
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<phoe>
The way I figured it out was, I realized that a closure around a function is equivalent to an "object" "around" a method.
<beach>
Oh, THAT's interesting.
<phoe>
The object and the closure both provide state, and the anonymous function and the method both provide code.
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<phoe>
That way, a closure's variable and an object's slot are equivalent, and the function closing over the variable and the object's method are equivalent.
<phoe>
This one, I got from watching SICP lectures where they were constructing meaningful objects that way.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<phoe>
And, because of that, a function is just another object whose "slots" you can set.
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<beach>
Mhm.
<phoe>
By means of a closure, that is.
<phoe>
(defun make-adder (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) <- X is a "slot" that you can set. And once you set it, you get a function, an "object", whose main "method" is being funcalled.
<phoe>
Bad English, one second:
<phoe>
...whose main "method" is, to be funcalled.
<phoe>
In Java-like notation, that would be int argument = 42; function.funcall(argument); or something.
<beach>
Yes, I understand. I was just surprised because I am pretty sure I learned functional programming before I learned object-oriented programming. Or perhaps simultaneously.
<phoe>
beach: I learned OO before functional.
<beach>
Yes, I just realized that that's the usual situation these days.
<beach>
I had a course (second year at the university, I think) that introduced Lisp, Simula, and APL, as examples of three different paradigms.
<phoe>
Well, in schools and universities, that might be the case. Functional programmers are rather strong nowadays though, mostly because we have the hardware to properly support them now and that businesses application are becoming functional-oriented to deal with complexity.
<phoe>
On our uni, it is the same, we are introduced to C++, Java, then to Scheme, Perl, Haskell, Erlang, SQL, and I think a couple others that I can't remember now.
<phoe>
Order of languages is accidental.
<phoe>
I mean, uhh. I meant that I didn't say them in any meaningful order, othen than C++ and Java which are the first ones.
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<pjb>
beach: perhaps, because there's some confusion between functions and closures?
<pjb>
COMPILE is the constructor for functions. FUNCTION is the constructor for closures. <- notice the confusion in the terms.
<phoe>
pjb: COMPILE is the constructor for compiled-functions to be precise.
<Shinmera>
Y'all are missing the point but I knew I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
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<jackdaniel>
the point is that not everything in CL is an object (i.e some rules defining it are not), recognizing a joke is a valuable skill ;-)
<jackdaniel>
I think most of us "got" you
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<phoe>
Shinmera: (defclass point ((thing :initarg thing))) (make-instance 'point :thing "he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place")
<Shinmera>
Bad jokes are indistinguishable from honesty.
<pjb>
Concept is so vague. But there are indeed several things in CL that are not lisp objects. For example, multiple values.
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<pjb>
Notice that it is somehow in the essence of multiple values of not being lisp objects.
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<pjb>
If you could pass and return multiple values as a single lisp objects, they wouldn't be multiple values anymore.
<LdBeth>
Can’t multiple values be an instance with slots (but not necessarily)
<pjb>
There's also the fact that CL types are not first class objects in the sense that you cannot have a reference to a CL type, but only to a CL type specifier (which is a sexp).
<pjb>
LdBeth: You have to convert them, eg. into a list, with (multiple-value-list (truncate 10 3)) #| --> (3 1) |#
<Shinmera>
pjb: A "return value" in general is not tangible. As in, the return value(s) evaluate to values, but you can't grab "returns" in general.
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<phoe>
I can't find the exact part of the spec that states the following: when the Lisp reader encounters "FOO:BAR" and package FOO exists but has no external symbol named BAR, an error is signaled.
<Shinmera>
well it specifically states that it must be an external symbol
<phoe>
The pattern numbered 2 is what I am looking for, but it says nothing about what happens if the symbol is not found.
<Shinmera>
well then the pattern is invalid
<phoe>
"All other uses of package markers within names of symbols are not defined by this standard but are reserved for implementation-dependent use."
<phoe>
I kind of doubt if "FOO:BAR" in that case would be valid for implementation-dependent use
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<beach>
LdBeth: Phrases like "in <language>, everything is a(n) <name>" are usually meaningless. If you refine it so that it is correct for Common Lisp, you get "in Common Lisp every datum is an object" which is obviously true because the glossary says they are synonyms.
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<beach>
LdBeth: But there are several things that aren't objects in Common Lisp, like comments in source code, for instance, or the result of reading something that is preceded by #(or).
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<beach>
Multiple values represent another example, as pjb pointed out.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
>people use `thing` as arguments for their joke classes
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Hey, I made an anti pattern!
<LdBeth>
beach: I thought a "thing" in a language is something hold a reference
<beach>
LdBeth: But then you are again in synonym territory. Every object is an object.
<beach>
LdBeth: So the phrase is meaningless.
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<LdBeth>
Right.
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<phoe>
Hmm.
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<phoe>
I'm refactoring CCLDOC now, and I need to be able to check if a condition is of type "external symbol BAR not found in package FOO".
<phoe>
I know that these should be all READER-ERRORs but I want to be more specific.
<phoe>
This will most likely mean that I come into implementation-defined territory.
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<phoe>
Is there any service that will allow me to quickly evaluate some code on X different implementations?
<phoe>
I literally want just a codesnippet that will attempt to read a non-existent external symbol and then print information about the condition that gets signaled.
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<Shinmera>
phoe: pjb wrote a cl-all script, but it'll still require you to have all implementations installed locally.
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<phoe>
Shinmera: which I don't have at the moment. I'd need to set up an environment myself to test that, and it seems a little bit too much for a simple snippet like this.
<Shinmera>
roswell can help
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<jeosol>
morning everyone
<beach>
Hello jeosol.
<jeosol>
morning beach, long time.
<jeosol>
been away hacking on my challenge code. very stable, had to fix many bugs, deadline soon
<jeosol>
i have a question, for those who have used clsql and postmodern for use with postgres. I have used clsql more but since i am subscribed to postmodern's mail list, it seems there is a lot of activity there
<beach>
Well, many of us have been away for some time, attending ELS.
<jeosol>
especially to meet new postgres features
<jeosol>
ok, beach, i wish I could have attended, I did plan to, but this challenge has given me many grey hairs already
<jeosol>
definitely, next one, I will look to attend, and may be have a contribution
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<drmeister>
I have auto completion enabled for slime - and I use M-tab to activate it. That's normal right? There is no good reason to bind it to tab because tab is used for indentation. Is that correct?
<drmeister>
I ask because I've added tab completion to cl-jupyter notebooks and I use tab there. I'm rethinking key bindings.
<MichaelRaskin>
In the web browser Tab could also mean focus control…
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<MichaelRaskin>
I guess the main example of using Tab for completion is interactive shell (readline etc.)
<drmeister>
In jupyter notebooks it is overridden then - it is used for tab completion.
<MichaelRaskin>
Oh well, if Jupyter makes a questionable choice…
<drmeister>
Thank you - that's a valuable perspective - that jupyter might be making a poor choice and it's best not to propagate it.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you integrate with it, it is reasonable to follow its conventions
<MichaelRaskin>
I am not sure what is a _good_ choice in the browser. Alt-Tab is annoying when it is window switch, Tab is focus control, Ctrl-Tab is browser Tab control, Shift is a modifier to switch direction in these cases.
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<drmeister>
We need more keys - damnit!
<MichaelRaskin>
I use Ctrl-Space for in-browser completion, which is not obvious for people who haven't used enough IDEs with that choice. Also, catching Ctrl-Space correctly has to be tested separately on all the platforms.
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<MichaelRaskin>
When I was using an Asus 15.6'' notebook, it was nice to rebind the numpad to arrows and a ton of modifiers…
<pjb>
phoe: you probably need to use your own lisp reader (eg. com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader), so you can define your own set of precise conditions.
<jeosol>
I believe some of you know my Mike Maul, or maintainer of CLML. I was hoping to do some ML tutorials and still undecided on the libraries to use. Someone here (jmercoursis(?)) suggested clasp
<pjb>
phoe: you may also want to revise the CL standard, to define a precise (potential) condition ontology.
<pjb>
and using your own lisp reader (or at least, your own reader macros), will let you define comments as lisp objects, which may be useful when you want to process them, as in documentation generator.
<phoe>
pjb: I can't, yet.
<phoe>
scymtym: I will think about it. To give you some context, I am refactoring CCLDoc which uses the standard Lisp reader for the time being to parse files. I'm cleaning up and documenting the code for the time being; changing the reader would be a pretty big change and I don't want to do such big leaps just yet.
<phoe>
uh, not scymtym - pjb
<phoe>
sorry
<pjb>
phoe: you can do it by defining a reader macro bound to all constituent characters, to read symbols.
<phoe>
that would uglify the code much more than I would like.
<pjb>
It would be hidden in a nice abstraction :-)
<pjb>
This is the standard hack for such things. The alternative, is to patch all the CL implementations to provide a readtable-parse-token function, or something similar.
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<jeosol>
nice
<phoe>
I wish it had no side effects
<mfiano>
Does anyone know how hard it would be to calculate a list of all the package names a particular system defines apart from parsing all the lisp files myself? My use-case is that I need to feed them into to the SBCL deterministic profiler, and there are currently about 50 packages in this project that are constantly changing/being added so manually listing them is a no go. To make matters worse there are multiple
<mfiano>
several where packages are defined, not just one.
<mfiano>
multiple files rather
<phoe>
mfiano: everything can define a new package. The best thing you can do is load all the dependencies of a system, take a snapshot of the package list, load your system, take a new snapshot of the package list, compare the two snapshots.
<mfiano>
That is a decent idea
<phoe>
I bet you can do that from ASDF level.
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<mfiano>
Come to think of it, I think Shimera did something similar with Staple documentation generation
<mfiano>
Shinmera. Man I can't type today
<phoe>
I have just made the most edge-case type of Common Lisp library that I can think of
<Shinmera>
This is why you should only load staple and then just run generate on your system, so that it ensures the other system is loaded later and the packages can be recorded accurately.
<MichaelRaskin>
phoe: not crazy enough
<MichaelRaskin>
Wouldn't it work to just cause the error (using your examples) and save the type (at load-time)?
<MichaelRaskin>
Then it would automatically port itself to most implementations
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<phoe>
MichaelRaskin: not really.
<phoe>
You don't want to match all SIMPLE-ERRORs.
<phoe>
Because of how the implementations handle this type of errors, I actually have to do string matching.
<Xach>
phoe: i have found it profitable to do string-matching of pretty error strings and use satisfies types for error handling.
<Xach>
phoe: and if in the glorious future the string matching is unnecessary, the satisfies check goes away but the error handling code remains the same.
<phoe>
Xach: I see. I have a satisfies type in there.
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<phoe>
gaaaaaaaaaaaah
<phoe>
there is no specific condition type for "package FOO not found" errors!
<phoe>
Luckily I can check if (find-package (package-error-package foo)) is NIL.
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<pjb>
mfiano: stricto sensu, computing this list of packages is equivalent to the halting problem.
<MichaelRaskin>
phoe: hm, cannot you just test all the natural cases, then string-match them, extract package/symbol names and verify what is going on?
<pjb>
mfiano: but if you restrict yourself to the set of package defined effectively by a system when it is loaded in a specific implementation on a specific platform on a specific computer, then you can just use list-all-packages before and after, and use set-difference.
<mfiano>
Yup, thank you.
<phoe>
MichaelRaskin: hm
<phoe>
theoretically I could, but I have no idea what *really* caused the condition to be signaled.
<phoe>
All I get is a condition which can be of any type, have any kind of readers, and may or may not have sensible arguments to retrieve with them.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if there is simple-error and someone throws simple-error with the same text for a different reason, you have lost anyway
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Errors are not "throw"n in Common Lisp. They are "signal"ed.
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<phoe>
Yep, that's why I copy what implementations do right now. The only sane thing to do would be to submit PRs to all the implementations so they instead signal specific condition types.
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah, yes, my bad. Given that it is feasible to throw a simple-error in the Common Lisp sense, I should mind the words.
<phoe>
But that won't really happen, I think. Mostly because I don't have the energy or will to do that.
<pjb>
At best, they're received and pulled by the handlers, but they don't fly all over the place.
<MichaelRaskin>
phoe: backtrace parsing…
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: It is not feasible to throw a simple error in Common Lisp.
<Shinmera>
err, should be 0s0, not 0f0 in my snippet
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<_death>
0s0 is short-float
<oleo>
hmmmm, i tried plisp
<oleo>
it's floats are screwed.....
<oleo>
lol
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<oleo>
(define f 3.14) -> 3.00000
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<pelle>
hi, i'm a bit new to common lisp, but find it great. trying to put a GUI on this program I made, and for that I've been checking out McCLIM. Works great, but troubel is: It needs to recompile *everything* everytime it loads. That takes about 10 minutes and makes it inconvenient to use. Other libraries I've loaded, like Hunchentoot, seem to only need to compile once (after I've set ASDF_OUTPUT_TRANSLATIONS to
<pelle>
a folder to cache the compiled files). Anyone has any idea how to avoid getting McCLIM to flippin recompile on every load? (Using SBCL on Debian)
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<phoe>
pelle: #clim might be able to answer sooner since they specialize on CLIM
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<oleo>
pelle: maybe just create an image via save-lisp-and-die ?
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<pelle>
@oleo and then load that image later?
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<pelle>
@phoe thanks. (wondering if anyone would really check such a niche IRC channel?)
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<phoe>
pelle: not so niche. (:
<phoe>
the McCLIM developers and maintainers are there.
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<pelle>
@phoe: happy to hear that!
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<cess11_>
pelle: If you have experience from C++ you might want to hang out in #clasp too.
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<pelle>
@cess11_ I'm coming more from Racket/Clojure perspective :-/ But might give it a look.
<oleo>
pelle: well i do it that way, i.e. use an image
<oleo>
if you don't have the .sbcl_completions file you can create it
<oleo>
either by touching it or using another instance of lisp and some code to generate the symbols in it
<oleo>
.sbcl_history can be empty anyway
<oleo>
but you might want to fill the completions
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<pelle>
@oleo: Uh, that sbcl_completions was something I was wondering about (since only CLISP appears to have built-in REPL completion)
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<oleo>
no pelle
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<phoe>
pelle: you might also want to pick up emacs+slime for interactive Lisp development; a terminal REPL will not give you a full experience.
<oleo>
pelle: just load this one http://dpaste.com/1JZDJV4 once you are in your image with all the packages loaded of which you want to create the symbols for completion
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<pelle>
useful with that completions file!! thanks! I've installed slimv in vim and seems to work quite well also ... just takes a bit getting used to.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Anyone good at music?
<Pixel_Outlaw>
ah wrong channel sorry
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<light2yellow>
khrbt: thanks
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<gonzojive>
I'd like a convenient method of quoting common lisp source code within a lisp file without having to use lots of escape characters. Anyone have a special literal reader for that sort of thing?
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<MichaelRaskin>
What do you mean? How it differs from ' or maybe ` ?
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<gonzojive>
MichaelRaskin: I want the code as a string, not as a lisp form. For a triple quote syntax, it'd be something like """(format nil "~A" x)""" => "(format nil \"~A\" x)"
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<MichaelRaskin>
Are you sure you don't want just to (format nil "~s" code-form) ?
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<rme>
you could use uninterned symbol syntax like #:|your stuff here| and then get the "your stuff here" via symbol-name.