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<pmc_>
SBCL is so much faster than CLISP. I ran a ray-tracer program on both compilers and what ran 4.5 minutes on CLISP only took 18 seconds! in SBCL.
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<pierpa>
no news here
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<iqubic>
Is that good?
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<pierpa>
that's only 15 times faster. Not much. Have you used any type declarations?
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<pmc_>
pierpa: no, I just ran the code as is. The code doesn't use declaim or declare either. Maybe there is room for improvement.
<pierpa>
ok. then is expected
<pierpa>
Clisp ignores type declarations, while SBCL makes good use of them
<pierpa>
a factor of 100 would be more typical
<pmc_>
interesting...
<pierpa>
in numerical code like a ray tracer, that is.
<pmc_>
I didn't know CLISP ignores type declarations. Earlier I was only using clisp and could not figure out why the code didn't run faster when using floats. :)
<pierpa>
Clisp is always in "safe mode"
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<pierpa>
it also ignores any optimization advice
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<pierpa>
to make it short, it ignores all declarations with the exception of SPECIALs
<pmc_>
wow
<pierpa>
otoh, it's a very simple compiler, and this has some advantages too
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<pfdietz>
I was still able to turn up some interesting bugs in it, back in the day.
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<loke>
pfdietz: WHat bigs did you find in SBCL, ABCL and ECL? (those are the implementations I use)
<pfdietz>
I don't have a full list of the SBCL bugs, but you can look up the recent ones on the bug tracker site. https://launchpad.net/sbcl
<pierpa>
phadthai: that's absolutely not the case
<loke>
pfdietz: Recent? Since the bug report for CLISp was in 2004, I assumed that this is something you did long ago.
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<phadthai>
pierpa: that's good to know
<pierpa>
clisp has always been a compiler, from the start
<pfdietz>
Recent for SBCL, not recent for Clisp.
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<loke>
I searched the bug database for dietxz, but noh its. What username do you have?
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<pfdietz>
Eric Marsden was running the random tester on SBCL a couple of years ago; I recently spruced it up a bit and started running it again (and another approach).
<beach>
My immediate reaction is to say that it is not valid.
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<loke>
beach: It's valid.
<flip214>
I've used an empty first argument list for macros a few times already, and saw more examples in other people's coed
<flip214>
*code
<loke>
Me too
<beach>
Yeah, it appears to be valid.
<flip214>
#| This argument placeholder intentionally left empty |#
<drmeister>
Ill file an issue
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<beach>
drmeister: I am not going to do anything about it before ELS.
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<drmeister>
Sure
<drmeister>
Is this going to be an eclector issue (lambda lists) or sicl?
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<phoe>
I often do this in my own macros.
<phoe>
(with-foo () ...)
<phoe>
The parens are there for possible further expansion of the macro's arguments. If you have no parens there, then you have no means of adding arguments to the macro later.
<phoe>
This empty list is a trick that people often use to make their macros extensible later.
<drmeister>
Thank you.
<loke>
phoe: I often do it.
<phoe>
So later you can things like (with-foo (frobnicate t) ...)
<phoe>
err
<phoe>
So later you can things like (with-foo (:frobnicate t) ...)
<phoe>
Or just put any kinds of optional/key args in there.
<drmeister>
Well, it's a bit of syntactic sugar that broke vlime on Cando (sigh)
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<drmeister>
It might be simple - just add ((null tree-or-lambda-list) tree-or-lambda-list) to parse-pattern in lambda-lists.lisp Testing...
<drmeister>
Good night all - thanks everyone and beach - I haven't said it in a while - thanks for Cleavir.
<flip214>
drmeister: you're a vlime user?
<phoe>
drmeister: sleep well!
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<beach>
drmeister: Good night and thanks.
<flip214>
hmmm, seems to be a different slime. Good night!
<flip214>
*vlime
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<phoe>
If an ASDF system emits warnings during tests, will its test-op nonetheless complete successfully?
<phoe>
I want to emit a warning to make a note to the user about a test that is broken on a certain implementation.
<Shinmera>
Typically such things are done within the test framework itself by conditionally skipping tests
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<phoe>
Yes, I skip the test, of course. But, when skipping a test, I want to emit a warning.
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<Shinmera>
I would just print one, not signal one.
<Shinmera>
Interactive things such as signals should be left for when the test suite is run interactively.
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<phoe>
Okiedokie.
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<johnnymacs>
If I have three mathematical functions called a b and c, and a maths paper says they are applied in this way: a b c , does that =>a(b(c)) or does it =>a(b)(c)
<johnnymacs>
I tend to think it means the result of a applied to b applied to see where the result of a applied to be is (a b)
<TMA>
johnnymacs: if that paper uses haskell as its pseudolanguage it means ((a b) c)
<johnnymacs>
thanks
<TMA>
johnnymacs: which is (a b c) when a is a two argument function; currying and such
<TMA>
johnnymacs: a(b(c)) is written "a $ b c"
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<johnnymacs>
I am really curious how I can use lambdas to generate new lambdas
<White_Flame>
same as always: (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))
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<White_Flame>
and of course, a lambda that returns a lambda can always be seen as currying,
<White_Flame>
depending on picking some nits
<White_Flame>
especially if you're being pure functional
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<phoe>
@everyone: no need to click that link, it's some sort of spam.
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<flip214>
"BUT I LIKE SPAM"
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<attila_lendvai>
hi! drmeister: if i have the necessary rights, i can look into setting up those clasp branches in the forked repos. i think it would also make sense to fork/move every dependency into clasp-developers
<jackdaniel>
this is M-7 window, I'm sure you want M-9 which is #clasp ;-)
<attila_lendvai>
jackdaniel: oh, right, thanks!
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<jmercouris>
hello everyone!
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<jmercouris>
I'm having issues thinking about an abstraction
<jmercouris>
I have an object that possesses several kinds of objects
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<jmercouris>
to make it a little bit more concrete, let's do the archetypical car abstraction
<jmercouris>
I have a car that contains several door objects
<jmercouris>
these door objects have different behaviors, so the front and rear doors are of a different class
<jmercouris>
I would like to invoke operations on the car level rather than the door level
<jmercouris>
for example I would like to be able to say (roll-down-window car rear-window)
<jackdaniel>
if they differ in how you handle each window in each model, then you'll always need to have NxM code paths
<jmercouris>
Yeah, there is no way around that...
<jmercouris>
at least with the object model in this language
<phoe>
keep a collection of all windows that you have in a hashtable
<jackdaniel>
you may squeeze it in one function or spread around NxM functions, but it will be the same in CL and C neverless
<jmercouris>
phoe: I will do that yes, thank you for the idea
<phoe>
you seem to want a simple map from window types to window objects, which is not unlike a JSONy object, { front-window: #<window>, rear-window: #<window> }
<phoe>
and hash-tables are exactly these.
<jmercouris>
Yeah, I'll have a public dictionary
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<jmercouris>
that way one can also query the car and see which windows it supports
<jmercouris>
well, public in the OO context
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<phoe>
sure, make class-allocated slots that specify the available window types
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<phoe>
instead of instance-allocated slots
<jmercouris>
so the car should be responsible for instantiating its own windows and assigning them into its own dictionary
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<jmercouris>
ok, I've got a good vision in my head, now thanks everyone
<phoe>
sure, that's doable, for each symbol in (window-types automobile) do (setf (window automobile symbol) (make-instance symbol))
<phoe>
where (setf window) is analogous to the #'WINDOW function I mentioned above
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<jmercouris>
yep, thx
<phoe>
as in, it expands into STEF GETHASH
<phoe>
SETF*
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<phoe>
Has anyone attempted to implement the ActivityPub protocol in Common Lisp?
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<Xach>
What is the ActivityPub protocol?
<dlowe>
the one underlying federated social networks
<dlowe>
like Mastodon
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<schweers>
I have a (hopefully) quick format question: I want to output double float values. I’d like them to have maximal precision, but don’t want to have a trailing d0 or d-5 or something like that. Is there a quick solution to this?
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<Bike>
function name is a string: GET-CXX-DATA-STRUCTURE-INFO. guessing i have to distclean
<Bike>
whoops wrong channel
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<sjl>
schweers: (format t "~F" pi) ?
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<schweers>
really, that is it? could you please shoot me for this?
<sjl>
> If w is omitted, then if the magnitude of arg is so large (or, if d is also omitted, so small) that more than 100 digits would have to be printed, then an implementation is free, at its discretion, to print the number using exponential notation instead, as if by the directive ~E (with all parameters to ~E defaulted, not taking their values from the ~F directive).
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<schweers>
the point is: these double-floats are intended to be the input for postgresql
<schweers>
okay, I’m fine with a dirty hack, so something along the lines of ~1000F should be fine.
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<schweers>
no, that is not what I want
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<Shinmera>
Wait, if you're passing data to postgresql why are you serialising it to strings?
<Shinmera>
You should use prepared statements to pass data.
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<schweers>
Shinmera: I don’t pass it directly. It’s a dirty hack my collegue came up with. So I have no choice here. This stuff isn’t mission critical or anything, so I’m fine with his approach.
<schweers>
but yes, normally you would be right :D
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<jeosol_>
morning guys
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<phoe>
hey jeosol_
<jeosol_>
Anyone working with CL on machine learning projects. I looked at Gabor's ML code several months ago and now trying to get back to it and similar projects.
<jeosol_>
hi phoe
<jeosol_>
been a while. I finally was able to get my challenge code to be stable and it's running now. Unfortunately, I may not have enough time to run all cases
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<phoe>
I can't help you with ML projects since it's completely not what I deal with.
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<phoe>
Maybe someone else though - or maybe you could make your questions more concrete
<jeosol_>
phoe: I work in ML but with other languages.
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<jeosol_>
my question is around the tools/libraries that are being used for those in the projects. I recently took the Coursera ML course and was thinking of replicating the examples in CL (SBCL) for those who may be interested
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<jmercouris>
jeosol_: I've looked and I've honestly not seen too much support for ML in Lisp
<jmercouris>
which is ironic in a sense
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<jmercouris>
I'm sure there are some tools, but most stuff seems to just be in C wrapped in another language
<jeosol_>
jmercouris: thanks for that feedback
<jeosol_>
I did try to compile clml library a while ago while I was looking neural networks and clustering algorithm codes. I was able to get it to load and all, but the interface was not clean enough for me to test cases.
<jmercouris>
I think it would be a fun exercise to implement some of these algorithms/data structures in Lisp, shouldn't be too hard
<jmercouris>
I'm not sure you'll get amazing performance with a simple solution, but it would be fun
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<jeosol_>
I then looked at Gabor's code, I was able to get it to with latest SBCL after some minor modifications (not code, just some quicklisp related things). I didn't have cuda though. The test case for the Higgs Boson challenge was running over a day so I had to kill it back then.
<jeosol_>
From Gabor's site, I think he mentioned that he used cuda and was able to get the training and test done in a day.
<jmercouris>
I'm not sure how experienced you are in the ML space, but I only run extremely small data sets on my own machine
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<jmercouris>
large and big data sets I leave for the server
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<jmercouris>
I also like to work with algorithms that don't require a lot of memory
<jeosol_>
I have run fair big problems, not the big data types, with Spark (clustering), and C++ code (on linux)
<jmercouris>
yeah, clustering for example, so much memory required...
<jeosol_>
This was a while back before all the big data/data science stuff. Most of the applications was just on linux, eg., clustering large data sets.
<jeosol_>
But with CL, I have small code snippets for doing kNN, and clustering, not optimized for large problems.
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<jmercouris>
You know what you could do, CFFI in Lisp is actually really good and easy to use, you could wrap one of the big libs in CL
<jmercouris>
that would be pretty useful for others as well
<jeosol_>
I plan to pick up Gabor's code again. My initial test then was to replicated his results for the Higgs Boson challenge and just go from there.
<jmercouris>
maybe even make a Lispy API
<jeosol_>
jmercouris: big libs?
<jmercouris>
jeosol_: I don't mean big in terms of file size, I mean popular
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<jeosol_>
Oh I see what you mean
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<jmercouris>
for example, you might do opencv using something like clasp
<jeosol_>
I have seen a few matrix related libraries on cliki back then and I am trying to see what people use. In my initial review of the Gabor's code, he has some optimized data structures for different computation, e.g., if cuda is enabled. I have to look at it again
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<jeosol_>
I am sure I can search one of the libraries and get some numeric optimization algorithms which would be what I would need for the simpler examples (linear and logistic regression) in the course.
<capitaomorte>
Hi, does anyone here know how to crash sbcl on purpose, i.e. make it drop into ldb?
<jmercouris>
I've never worked with the FFI for C++, only for C
<jmercouris>
so I can't say much about it, but the C one is really quite good
<jmercouris>
it took me about a day to get used to it, I just looked at some examples, and I was able to use it
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<jackdaniel>
ECL may be compiled with C++ compiler and then it can interact with C++ world (and vice versa)
<jeosol_>
jmercouris: read the clasp page. Seems very interesting. Since there are very efficient codes for C/C++ that approach makes sense. I will wait to hear back from Mike so as not to be duplicating efforts. Kind of see what they are doing if any in this space.
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<jmercouris>
that makes a lot of sense, I'd be interested to know how that conversation goes :)
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<jeosol_>
jmercouris: sure, I will definitely get back to you. Likd I said, it will be good to get reviewers in the space. I like the approach of wrapping existing functionalities which means one can starting using those libraries within CL
<jeosol_>
and bring the rapid development and prototyping of solutions to that space.
<jmercouris>
Yeah, that would be the really big benefit
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<jmercouris>
the REPL cannot be overstated
<jmercouris>
I've been frustrated by even languages that purportedly come with a REPL
<jmercouris>
the one in Python drives me crazy for example
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<rpg>
jmercouris: ditto for JavaScript
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<jeosol_>
jmercouris: lol on python repl
<jeosol_>
hahhaha
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<jeosol_>
I agree, the REPL can not be overstated, there is a just a different way of developing software with CL. I came from C/C++ background: edit-compile-link ... blah blah
<jmercouris>
rpg: we can go on and on, nothing compares to the CL REPL
<jeosol_>
You can build large by those small updates, here and there, and you test your ideas and get rapid feedback. For me for the challenge I talked about, I often have to load my data set that can take 10 mins to just to load
<rpg>
jmercouris: Agreed. And I wish SLDB didn't hide it from me. :-(
<jmercouris>
that's the worst loading and reloading the data set when your program crashes
<jeosol_>
once I do that, I don't have to reload that data, and I can just keep working, and working
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<jmercouris>
especially when you find that it is just a simple logic mistake, and there you are, waiting another 10 minutes
<jeosol_>
jmercouris: exactly
<jmercouris>
this is why I especially don't understand companies that not only use tools that require compilation but *ALSO* have complex building and deployment requirements
<jeosol_>
it would have been impossible to get my project done.
<jmercouris>
how do your engineers get anything done?
<rpg>
I have to admit that I'm getting pretty grumpy about not having some kind of type-checking, though. Seems like partial type checking has never really caught on. But I end up with a ton of stupid errors that way.
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<jmercouris>
s/require compilation/cannot be partially recompiled in a live image/
<jeosol_>
I actually have to put up slides to convince colleagues in the future on the benefits
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<jmercouris>
It doesn't matter, you can't convince them, too much organizational inertia usually
<jmercouris>
the best you can do is found a new company and start with CL
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<jeosol_>
rgp: That could be true. My code uses CLOS
<jeosol_>
yeah, jmercouris
<jeosol_>
I actually worked on a product on my own, and I used CL (SBCL specifically) for everything
<jmercouris>
it goes back to that old adage as well, "nobody got fired for picking IBM"
<jeosol_>
in a former job, I told a boss I was tired of looking at an excel sheet with 1000 rows and > 200 columns and I have to pick data manually. He said they don't want change. I get the requests daily and it can take me 3-4 days for data extraction
<jeosol_>
eventually, I wrote something with SQLITE and CLSQL, converted the excel file to CSV and can load the columns I need. Less than a day and all requests (queries as functions) takes seconds to get back
<jeosol_>
they were amazed how fast I am able to return the queries that they need.
<jeosol_>
jmercouris: Liberating doesn't do justice. For me, CLOS, the debugger, etc, was instrumental to my development style.
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<jeosol_>
If a code is blowing up, I have the object or argument to that function call, and can test as much as I want still it is resolve.
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<jeosol_>
I agree, the organizational inertia is too much to overcome. Colleagues have seen my screen emacs and asks what's is this strange language I am using.
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<jmercouris>
I think it is best to just stay under the radar, and work more efficiently
<jmercouris>
in the past, people have made a big deal about me using emacs, despite me never talking about it
<jeosol_>
that was what I did eventually.
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<jmercouris>
same thing with using CL in the workplace, if you can write something quickly in CL, just make the tool and expose the API in the form of your colleagues making requests of you, they don't need to know the underlying implementation :D
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<jeosol_>
jmercouris: That is a good way to deal with. No one really needs to know the implementation as long as there is some interface.
<jeosol_>
Btw, the python and JS REPL comparisons :-)
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<rpg>
Thing I'm wishing right now -- that it was easier to pass information from one SHOP image to another. Packages make this hard, of course, but it still seems harder than it should be.
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<didi>
I just realized the function is called `LIST', not `list'. I wonder if a package, any package, would survive a change on reading case conversion.
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<rpg>
didi: Do you mean the code in the package, or the package definition itself?
<didi>
rpg: I mean loading a package.
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<didi>
rpg: But your questions makes it even more interesting.
<rpg>
didi: so you mean something like a package that has been saved in a FASL file? because I don't think you can actually serialize a package (or print it readably), at least not with a lot of effort.
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<didi>
rpg: No no (more good questions). I mean (load "file-with-package.lisp"). But we can go further and think about an ASDF system.
<rpg>
I suppose one could send stuff back and forth by printing stuff readably back and forth between two communicating lisps, and hope that you haven't accidentally transmitted something that requires context that the other doesn't have.
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<rpg>
As I find myself wanting to do more in parallel, this kind of hurts.
<phoe>
you can use swank for interlisp communication (pun intended)
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<rpg>
phoe: That's pretty cool.
<phoe>
rpg: it is. There are swank clients written in pure CL, too.
<phoe>
so swank isn't just a backend for slime, it's a general backend for lisp-lisp communication.
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<rpg>
phoe: Interesting -- I have always thought of it more as a backend for elisp-lisp communication
<phoe>
rpg: yes. it's more powerful than that though.
<phoe>
it's essentially an engine for RPC. and you know what is achievable with RPC. (;
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<rpg>
phoe: Yes, Chaos! No! I mean Great Things!
<phoe>
why not both?
<rpg>
Let's make distributed object systems great again
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<phoe>
rpg: actually it seems that each object for which you can define MAKE-LOAD-FORM can be transmitted over to other nodes
<rpg>
phoe: Yes, that should work.
<rpg>
My application involves symbolic computing, which makes things more tricky than they would otherwise be.
<phoe>
symbolic computing, as in, you use symbols in your data structures?
<phoe>
because if they are interned, then you need to use :: to make sure they are interned
<phoe>
and if they are not, you're in trouble
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<rpg>
phoe: if I make sure that both sides have the same packages, and I don't do anything scary like use property lists, I can make it work.
<phoe>
rpg: yep, that is correct.
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<phoe>
also limit the packages where you intern everything to some kind of FOO-USER package
<phoe>
so all the namespace pollution that might happen is restricted to that package.
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<rpg>
phoe: the issue is that I'm doing things like building symbols for logical variables. If I do the reasoning in one image, and only export the conclusions, I can avoid ending up with a lot of un-collectable garbage.
<phoe>
that's the tiny tool that I wrote for using READ in it.
<phoe>
after the package is deleted, all symbols that were read become uninterned.
<rpg>
phoe: Yes, that would work, I think.
<phoe>
make sure to explicitly :use () in your scrap package though to avoid getting implicit uses.
<rpg>
For me, though, it may be hard to identify what symbols can be put in a temporary package and what are conclusions ("outputs"), since I'm producing what are effectively proofs.
<phoe>
You could try iterating over your output and interning all symbols in that output in some other package.
<phoe>
This would clean up the symbols that get lost in the computation.
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<pierpa_>
there's the WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX macro which takes care of all these things
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<phoe>
pierpa_: uh, no, it does not create a temporary package
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<phoe>
it always binds to CL-USER
<pierpa_>
but it takes care of aetting things in the same way at both ends
<pierpa_>
*setting
<phoe>
ohh, right - you mean this
<pierpa_>
yes
<phoe>
for things that are printable, yes; I was thinking of things which are dumpable into FASLs and loadable from FASLs
<phoe>
because you could implement a mechanism that compiles something, dumps it into a FASL, sends the FASL over the network; the other node downloads and loads the FASL, gets an object
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<phoe>
and this would work for sending arbitrary data between Lisps, as long as everything is FASL-dumpable
<pierpa_>
FASLs should think by themselves about interning in the right packages, I think? I never tried this.
<phoe>
yep, that's correct - except FASLs might always fail to load if some dependencies aren't met for example
<Bike>
consequences are undefined if the package system isn't in the same state during load as it was for the compiler
<Bike>
i think
<phoe>
such as a missing package
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<phoe>
or perhaps an undefined class when you try to load an instance of that class
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<phoe>
if you make sure that the two images have the same* packages then you should be good
<phoe>
*the same enough that is, I wouldn't count silly things like ones created via WITH-TEMP-PACKAGE