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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
jcowan: I don't understand your question. Cleavir is designed to be used to build the compiler(s) of Common Lisp, i.e. COMPILER-FILE, COMPILE, EVAL. So the unit to compile is either a file or a top-level lambda expression.
<jcowan>
When you are using the SBCL back end, and you compile a file, do you get a file?
<beach>
No, I just do it by the top-level expression. And it stays in memory.
<beach>
But I could.
<beach>
I could translate to Common Lisp, write it to a file, call the SBCL compiler on it.
* jcowan
nods
<jcowan>
I read the LispOS paper
<beach>
Oh, good.
<jcowan>
Something it lacks is a means to undo mutation at the user level
<beach>
I think I have a phrase in there somewhere, but I haven't designed any general mechanism.
* jcowan
nods
<beach>
It might be tricky to do.
<jcowan>
Definitely. One possibility is to use a trail a la Prolog
<jcowan>
I thought at first the chapter on checkpointing would address that
<beach>
Not really. That's more about keeping the system consistent in case of a crash.
<jcowan>
Is a compiled top-level lambda compiled into an SBCL lambda, then?
<beach>
It's more involved than that...
<beach>
First the top-level lambda expression is turned into an AST, then to HIR, and that process returns a lambda expression that corresponds to a FASL file. So it has to be "tied" (or linked if you prefer) to a first-class global environment.
<beach>
That lambda expression is then compiled and executed on some arguments, like the environment.
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<beach>
The side effects from executing that function will create the functions, variables, and other side effects that would normally happen when a FASL is loaded.
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<jcowan>
Some of the historical section of the LispOS paper contains errors, but I'm not going to fuss over them now
<beach>
Great! If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
<beach>
jcowan: OK, but I would like to know at some point.
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<beach>
Can you give me a hint?
<jcowan>
Processes predate Unix by many years: they were already available in OS/360 (1964)
<beach>
Right.
<beach>
I didn't think I hinted that Unix invented them.
<jcowan>
The only real novelty in Unix is pipes
<beach>
But I'll check. Thanks.
<jcowan>
You say that processes exist because of the limited memory of minicomputers, but they were born on mainframes
<beach>
I knew they existed before. In fact Multics had them too.
<beach>
That remains true though.
<beach>
Oh, I should not have said mini.
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
I'll fix it.
<jcowan>
Multics had typically one process per user session
<beach>
It did, yes.
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<jcowan_>
HODIE NATUS EST RADICI FRATER
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<beach>
jcowan_: Were you also a Multics user?
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<beach>
jcowan_: I re-read that paragraph, and as a result, I removed the "mini" prefix. Thanks for pointing that out.
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<bjorkintosh>
one process per user session? what do you do with that??
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<ldb>
sup
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<beach>
bjorkintosh: You have been brainwashed by UNIX.
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<beach>
bjorkintosh: For example, when a program fails, in Multics, you have access to the stack. Then you can try to to fix the problem, say an attempt to call a function that does not exist, type `continue' and the execution continues.
<beach>
bjorkintosh: In many ways, the Multics development environment was similar to our Lisp environment, and in many ways better than what our free Common Lisp implementations can do.
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<ldb>
Which has been said from `the Arise of Worse is Better', included in the appendix of the UNIX Haters Handbook
<ldb>
As for Multics, I prefer TOPS-20 instead.
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<bjorkintosh>
interesting.
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<bjorkintosh>
ldb, TOPS-20? was it any good?
<shrdlu68>
I call CL the "undead language" - it's alive, only with an unholy, supernatural vigor.
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<beach>
ldb: I find it more interesting to compare Multics and TOPS-20 on the one had to UNIX, Windows, MacOS, Android on the other hand, than to compare Multics and TOPS-20. My point in the LispOS specification is that we can do much better than what current systems do, and we have a good model for it, namely our Common Lisp environments.
<beach>
on the one HAND
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<ldb>
beach: do you think it is a good idea to mix RAM and Disk in LispOS?
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<beach>
"mix"?
<beach>
I see RAM as a cache for disk.
<bjorkintosh>
a VERY fast one.
<beach>
bjorkintosh: What do you mean?
<ldb>
ok, i see
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<ldb>
however i would like to see specialized device for such an environment
<epony>
Not much changed since the time the paper got written, except maybe NUMA if it's not mentioned there.
<ldb>
beach: beacause von neumann machine has limitations on abstraction extent
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<beach>
ldb: That is way to vague for me to understand.
<bjorkintosh>
beach isn't RAM access faster than disk access by definition?
<beach>
bjorkintosh: Yes, so?
<flip214>
bjorkintosh: only if the RAM being accessed is "present" and not paged out...
<beach>
bjorkintosh: It is about virtual memory. We know how to do that.
<bjorkintosh>
well that's its point then!
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<beach>
bjorkintosh: We have been able to do that for half a century.
<flip214>
and if your swap device is a remote iSCSI disk, the local trash /tmp might still be much faster than that
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<bjorkintosh>
:-)
<ldb>
beach: I mean, as long as we are working on it, we have to sacrifice either performance or convenience, can't detach from heavy work of dealing with ugly hardware interface
<bjorkintosh>
I'd never really heard of TOPS-20. What sort of lisp did it run?
<bjorkintosh>
Maclisp?
<beach>
ldb: I don't believe that's true.
<ldb>
yes, and interlisp
<bjorkintosh>
interlisp. Interesting. you've used it, ldb?
<ldb>
sure. i also looked eulisp
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<epony>
I still think it's a funnily stupid idea to consider double trickery in application virtualisation against the host OS for the same resource abstracting away the hardware to absolutely irrelevant ideas like "unlimited transparent secondary storage".
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<ldb>
i agree
<epony>
Either context switch in the OS, or the OS is the language interpreter and be done with the OS concept once and for allllllll.
<epony>
(kbd stuck on l)
<ldb>
common lisp's file io is poor
<ldb>
any suggestions on effcient way of reading a file until certian char or EOF?
<ldb>
currently i use a buffer to read each 8192 bytes into vectors and search on it
<ecraven>
mmap it
<flip214>
ldb: use structured data instead? Eg. via a length tag at the beginning?
<ecraven>
also, I've read recently that mmap is not significantly faster than just reading, it just might be more convenient
<ldb>
flip214: ecraven: i could do mmap, but i also want to process stream data like UNIX stdin
<on_ion>
no binary stream lib ?
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<ldb>
good point
<flip214>
ecraven: the IO access is mostly the same... spinning platter means 4-12 msec, etc.
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<verisimilitude>
Hello there.
<beach>
Hello verisimilitude.
<ldb>
hi
<phoe>
heyyy
<beach>
I think I must study this interesting psychological phenomenon that I am frequently confronted with. Like in our "incremental parsing" paper, we do orders of magnitude better than Emacs, but we are told that we must also solve the halting problem at typing speed.
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<verisimilitude>
I've been writing some Common Lisp programs others may find interesting and figured I maybe should mention them here, if you're interested.
<verisimilitude>
Unfortunately, these aren't yet added to quicklisp, but that's in process.
<ldb>
great
<beach>
And in my LispOS specification, I suggest something that is way better than what we now have, and I am told I also need to solve the Von Neumann bottleneck.
<verisimilitude>
So, you'd be interested, ldb?
<ldb>
verisimilitude: i'm urging for text processing realated things
<verisimilitude>
In that case, here are the three links:
<verisimilitude>
The latter two relate to control of terminal devices, ldb.
<verisimilitude>
So, in order, the first is SHUT-IT-DOWN, which is a single symbol package that can be used to exit the implementation; one of the nicknames is QUIT and so you can call it as (QUIT:QUIT).
<verisimilitude>
The second is an implementation of the ECMA-48 standard, Control Characters for Coded Character Sets; surprisingly, it doesn't seem like anyone had implemented this in Common Lisp, before me.
<ldb>
verisimilitude: splendid, that mean i dont have to use ncurses
<verisimilitude>
Exactly, ldb.
<verisimilitude>
The third and last is ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, which as an abstract program for controlling terminals; it uses CL-ECMA-48, the second.
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<verisimilitude>
Follows is an early excerpt from the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL documentation:
<verisimilitude>
>I also have a large disgust with the use of Curses varieties in Common Lisp programs, as this unnecessarily and substantially complicates using such a program. Risking memory leaks shouldn't be necessary to control a terminal.
<shrdlu68>
verisimilitude: Nice.
<verisimilitude>
Thank you.
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<verisimilitude>
In designing the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL interface, I naturally found myself using SETF for some functionality and so decided this was best for all functionality.
<verisimilitude>
So, all current functionality can be expressed in terms of SETF, naturally.
<verisimilitude>
As an example, (CURSOR) returns the cursor location corresponding to the stream argument, which defaults to *STANDARD-OUTPUT*; (SETF CURSOR) is used to reposition the cursor, similarly.
<ldb>
setf is so good even emacs have absorbed it into language core
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<flip214>
beach: "if you're going to start work on that, do it RIGHT" is the general assumption, I guess.
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<shrdlu68>
verisimilitude: If I understand this right, acute-terminal-control simply spits out ANSI control codes, right?
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<shrdlu68>
s/control/escape/
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<verisimilitude>
It uses ECMA-48 control functions, yes.
<shrdlu68>
verisimilitude: What's currently missing is one such library that also has low-level control of the terminal, which would reqiure making syscalls to the OS.
<verisimilitude>
I've already taken a look at several of these projects, shrdlu68, and they all either use a Curses or a simply inefficient.
<LdBeth>
shrdlu68: you never need syscalls to operate on terminal devices
<verisimilitude>
I've been in #quicklisp trying to have it added for months now, phoe.
<verisimilitude>
I don't use github.
<phoe>
verisimilitude: you don't need to use github
<verisimilitude>
You may be interested by taking a look at CL-ECMA-48; I implement all 162 control functions that optimize the representations sent and the code to do this is also optimized.
<beach>
flip214: Yes, but that's not how things work. Incremental improvement is the key.
<phoe>
simply put them on any host from where they can be cloned by git, and then ask someone who uses github to make an issue on quicklisp-projects
<verisimilitude>
I know, phoe, which is why I've been using #quicklisp.
<phoe>
multiple QL projects are cloned from git repos that are not hosted on many of the big git services.
<verisimilitude>
I don't use version control.
<verisimilitude>
I do, however, provide each of these as a gzipped tar file; currently, the latest issue Xach informed me of was that they didn't decompress into their own directory, which has been corrected.
<phoe>
okiedokie.
<verisimilitude>
Regardless, I appreciate your help, phoe.
<LdBeth>
verisimilitude: one thing I most concern, which is lacked in ncurses, does it support Unicode display?
<verisimilitude>
Does it permit sending Unicode?
<verisimilitude>
There's no reason it shouldn't.
<verisimilitude>
It only sends control functions through Common Lisp streams; anything that can be sent through should be fine.
<jdz>
verisimilitude: Just out of curiosity: why don't you use version control?
<verisimilitude>
Each of these projects is a single file; why would I?
<jdz>
To do experiments, for instance.
<verisimilitude>
That's what I take backups for.
<LdBeth>
👍 thumbnail up
<jdz>
Git is basically a tool to make snapshots of a directory.
<verisimilitude>
I also simply dislike the idea that I should manually run a version control tool; it should be handled for me, but it isn't.
<verisimilitude>
Now, you touched on something interesting, shrdlu68.
<jdz>
How would a tool automatically DWIM (do what i mean)?
<shrdlu68>
LdBeth: Yes you do, see man 3 termios.
<verisimilitude>
Here's an excerpt from the end of the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL documentation:
<verisimilitude>
>The preceding functionality both cannot be implemented with purely ECMA-48 functionality nor in portable Common Lisp and so the utility of adding it is put into question. It is thought, perhaps, the functionality will always pretend to be present or not available to the environment otherwise, but this is undecided.
<verisimilitude>
>Functionality which may be added is as follows: control over input echoing; control over whether input is buffered by the system and whether reading will block or not.
<verisimilitude>
Well, for one, jdz, a file system should regularly take backups.
<jdz>
I'm not talking about backups.
<verisimilitude>
However, UNIX certainly doesn't do this and probably never will.
<verisimilitude>
Then what do you mean, jdz?
<jdz>
For instance, working on two different implementations of the same feature at once.
<jdz>
Switching between them, merging parts eventually.
<verisimilitude>
I use comments for that.
<verisimilitude>
If I don't necessarily need to run the program yet, I don't even need comments.
<jdz>
The next step is when your code is released, people may contribute improvements. This activity is concurrent by definition.
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<LdBeth>
shrdlu68: well it’s OS’s job to provide a try, but I don’t think controlling display and move cursor around requires more syscalls except write to the device
<verisimilitude>
That's true, but I would simply manage that manually until it became unwieldy.
<epony>
verisimilitude try cvs a spin, it is designed to track progress on simple files
<LdBeth>
Just like in the old days
<jdz>
epony: really? CVS in 2018?
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<verisimilitude>
I'd prefer to avoid complicating my setup until it's absolutely necessary, but I appreciate the suggestion, epony.
<LdBeth>
Even artists use GitHub
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<verisimilitude>
Now, the issue with adding that functionality to ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL is that it does require syscalls; there is, however, the fact that this could still be done in a way that avoids UNIX shared library garbage does make it seem appealing if it's utterly necessary.
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<jdz>
I personally like Git because it is a dumb tool to manage snapshots of a directory tree, with a lot of tooling built around it (including Emacs integration).
<verisimilitude>
Most implementations provide some manner of syscall interface.
<verisimilitude>
If I ever used version control under UNIX, it would probably be required that I could use it only from Emacs, while avoiding the tool itself as much as I can.
<verisimilitude>
How many of you are using Emacs as your IRC client?
<schweers>
friends don’t let friends use CVS in 2018
<verisimilitude>
For one, it supports very few implementations.
<LdBeth>
Use Wanderlust for mail and feeds
<verisimilitude>
I'll keep it in mind, epony.
<epony>
verisimilitude actually rcs is pretty much sufficient for per file revisioning and is the easiest thing ever
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<verisimilitude>
Well, there's also the point that SHUT-IT-DOWN and CL-ECMA-48 probably won't see much change now; the latter in particular is rather finished, unless I discover a flaw.
<verisimilitude>
So, there's no point in handling those files, now.
<LdBeth>
My irc is a small script and I was looking for a good terminal interface lib for a while, and that’s why I get excited today
<verisimilitude>
Regardless, I'm curious as to what you all think of these three programs, so far.
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<verisimilitude>
That's nice, LdBeth.
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<phoe>
verisimilitude: SHUT-IT-DOWN is duplicated by UIOP:QUIT, the other two are pretty fun. I might use them when I write a terminal application.
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<verisimilitude>
Xach also expressed this concern, phoe, but SHUT-IT-DOWN has a better interface (I think), supports far more implementations, is significantly smaller and more targeted, and is under a more permissive license.
<verisimilitude>
With these arguments, Xach didn't seem opposed to adding it.
<loke>
There is also a QUIT in trivial-shell
<loke>
I know, because I merged that :-)
<loke>
(or maybe it's called EXIT, i can't remember)
<verisimilitude>
I wasn't aware of that, but would be inclined to believe SHUT-IT-DOWN supports more implementations than that as well.
<loke>
I can't remember which impelemntations trivial-shell supprots.
<loke>
verisimilitude: Looking at the code, I can see it doesn't support exit codes.
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<antoszka>
huh, what's POPLOG?
<verisimilitude>
I'd support MOCL, but I can't find any documentation and the developers won't respond to my emails.
<antoszka>
Never heard of such an implementation ;)
<verisimilitude>
Asides from MOCL, there's just Movitz and the Lisp machines I'd want to support, but those are in odd states for searching for this.
<verisimilitude>
Exit codes are irrelevant to Common Lisp and I find it inelegant to have an interface like this pay them any mind.
<verisimilitude>
Would an exit code make any sense under MOCL, as one example?
<verisimilitude>
It's just a UNIXism.
<epony>
Like processes and files.
<LdBeth>
antoszka: prolog is not even Lisp
<epony>
And what is this hardware that we must use then, let's run on paper.
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<jackdaniel>
LdBeth: poplog is not the same thing as prolog
<verisimilitude>
UNIX didn't invent processes nor files, epony, but it's done a good job at implementing them poorly.
<jackdaniel>
poplog is a common runtime and a compiler suite for a variety of languages, Common Lisp included
<jackdaniel>
not sure how complete CL implementation in Poplog is, I'd bet on ClTl2
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<jackdaniel>
CLtL2°
<verisimilitude>
Well, it also supports Emacs-CL, which certainly isn't finished.
<epony>
Good ideas stick around. Missing on an idea can always be corrected.
<jackdaniel>
verisimilitude: sounds like a solid task you have acomplished – congrats
<LdBeth>
jackdaniel: I remember it is a implementation of several languages including prolog
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<jackdaniel>
sure, but looking at antoszka question prolog is not very relevant, is it?
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<antoszka>
Yeah, I've read up, now I know what poplog-CL is.
<antoszka>
Thanks, jackdaniel.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<LdBeth>
I admit I misread that
<LdBeth>
Sorry about that
<jackdaniel>
nothing to be sorry about, there were no malicious intent
<verisimilitude>
It's the same reason you should use USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME instead of simply hardcoding "~/", epony.
<verisimilitude>
It's Common Lisp, not Common UNIX Lisp.
<epony>
Right, I need a boot loader.
<jackdaniel>
being correct is a matter of forward compatibility
<jackdaniel>
being almost correct is a matter of current needs
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<jackdaniel>
code ceases to be maintained, but well written code works longer
<loke>
jackdaniel: Like the Maxima code I'm digging through now :-)
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<jackdaniel>
heh
<loke>
It was well written back when it was written. These days, it's... aged.
<loke>
But, it still works. :-)
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<loke>
When was macsyma written by the way? *0's?
<loke>
80's?
<LdBeth>
It is by Symbolics
<blurgh>
I installed stumpwm from source using make, and it gave me a warning from cl-ppcre. Nevertheless, it compiled and I set up .xinitrc. startx gave me a blank window. loke: early '70s IIRC. It predates Symbolics. I think it was made on the ITS.
<blurgh>
Is that the oldest app still running? That's older than Emacs. O.O
<LdBeth>
phoe: congratulations
<loke>
phoe: For what?
<loke>
blurgh: When it comes to Open Source software, yes. I think it's likely.
<loke>
At least it's up there.
<loke>
There aren't many other software packages that old that are still being maintained and developed.
<phoe>
loke: I basically have a server to which clients can connect, and objects that represent operations that are permitted to be done in my system by clients.
<verisimilitude>
Would it be too forward of me to mention another Lisp community and see if any of you may have used it before?
<LdBeth>
blurgh: we have teco, the earliest editor
<loke>
LdBeth: there is a difference though. Modern versions of TECO are full rewrites. I don't think anyone maintaining the original code base.
<phoe>
They need to have some state, but it also makes sense to me that they're operations, so they should be funcallable on some arguments.
<phoe>
So I thought, hell, why not a funcallable instance.
<loke>
phoe: Congratulations! I've never needed funcallable instances myself :-)
<blurgh>
LdBeth: Have you tried entering your name as a command?
* loke
actually knows a bit of TECO. I also use ITS sometimes.
<loke>
Videoteco on Linux is pretty good actually.
<LdBeth>
blurgh (IRC): ldb is nothing, same to eth
<blurgh>
*: You can still use ITS? Is someone running an instance?
<loke>
blurgh: Sure. its.pdp10.se
<loke>
for example
<loke>
ITS doesn't use passwords, so anyone can log in :-)
<phoe>
loke: an alternative is a standard object that holds some slots, and a method specializing on that object's class. But it's a bit inelegant in my case to have a separate method if I can just invoke that.
<verisimilitude>
I'm curious as to how old this channel is.
<blurgh>
loke: Maybe. I've heard that Lisp Machines had persistent environments (similar to Smalltalk images) and were interactive throughout. Is there documentation on the design choices for implementing this? Gap buffers and system images like Emacs?
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<ecraven>
blurgh: there are various lisp machines available as virtual machines, you can try one of them
<loke>
blurgh: The closest in terms of current code implementing this would be CLIM.
<phoe>
10:32 -!- Channel #lisp created Sun Aug 3 23:30:32 2003
<phoe>
verisimilitude: ^
<ecraven>
the Open Genera sources can be found on the web, you can look at the actual source code
<loke>
It's not older than that?
<phoe>
I have no idea how old it is, I only know when it was registered on Freenode
<blurgh>
ecraven: I thought it was still unreleased! I'll go check it out. Thanks.
<ecraven>
blurgh: well, as I said, they can be found... depending on your country, that finding may be legal or illegal
<ecraven>
you might still be able to buy them, too
<verisimilitude>
Alright; it's appreciated, phoe.
<phoe>
verisimilitude: well, it's *at least* this old
<verisimilitude>
Alright.
<blurgh>
ecraven: legal in USA? I remember hearing about how someone at MIT said they would release the source code for one of the machines (MIT CADR?) but hadn't followed through at the time of writing.
<ecraven>
blurgh: the mit cadr sources are freely available, as far as I know, but Symbolics' Open Genera sources haven't been open sourced, I think
<verisimilitude>
It's interesting; what other Lisp communities do you all use?
<verisimilitude>
I've been meaning to setup a GNU Social instance on my server, but Debian issues want a kernel upgrade and it's a mess.
<LdBeth>
Yeah, usim
<verisimilitude>
Now, Mastodon works with some manner of hashtag like grouping, right; is it simply #lisp, then, loke?
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<phoe>
loke: which mastodon instance?
<LdBeth>
With CHAOS support
<loke>
verisimilitude: You have to follow the right people. Check the local timelines on functional.cafe and icosahedron.website. Or just search for #lisp
<phoe>
okay. thanks.
<verisimilitude>
I'll keep that in mind; it's appreciated, loke.
<loke>
phoe: What's your name over there?
<loke>
Am I following you?
<verisimilitude>
Now, what of you in particular; do you use Mastodon for this as well?
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<loke>
what is “this”?
<verisimilitude>
I meant do you use it for Lisp purposes or is it more tangential to what you usually do there.
<loke>
verisimilitude: I'm not sure how to answer that.
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<phoe>
loke: none yet, I must register on one of these instances.
<epony>
I find the choice of words community and use together confused.
<loke>
verisimilitude: It's not that. I simply don't understand your question.
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<verisimilitude>
I'll rephrase, then.
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<verisimilitude>
Do you use Mastodon primarily or often for Lisp discussion or not?
<verisimilitude>
I suppose, in a more general way, I'm asking how the Lisp community there is.
<loke>
verisimilitude: It's a group of peple, all different. Arguably there are more than one community :-)
<loke>
Just follow some peopple and see.
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<loke>
verisimilitude: Mastodon is the onlt “social” media I use with any regularity.
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<loke>
I also check G+ once in a while, but the mountain bike community is flooded with spammers at the moment.
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<loke>
phoe: Create an account and follow me: @loke@functional.cafe
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<verisimilitude>
Alright.
<shrdlu68>
LdBeth: I said "low-level" control of the terminal, i.e buffering, echoing, etc.
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<LdBeth>
shrdlu68: so ncurse uses syscalls to archive these behaviors... humm
<shka>
hello to all wonderfull people!
<Shinmera>
No hello for me? Rude.
<verisimilitude>
Hello, shka.
<verisimilitude>
Hello, Shinmera.
<shrdlu68>
Hello, fellow human.
<verisimilitude>
My current solution to this, shrdlu68, is to simply call stty in the sh program I use to launch the Common Lisp program.
<LdBeth>
Hemlock
<shka>
Shinmera: and hello Shinmera
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<verisimilitude>
Yes, LdBeth; for a supposedly file-based operating system, UNIX certainly does prefer syscalls passing C structs to files for a great many things.
<schweers>
under which circumstances are calls to BREAK ignored? I am trying to debug a piece of code and can’t get it to enter the debugger anymore. Yesterday it still worked.
<schweers>
it does run in a background thread, but that wasn’t a problem yesterday. I’m using sbcl and slime. any ideas?
<verisimilitude>
Does INVOKE-DEBUGGER work?
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<schweers>
Before someone asks: i optimize for debug and safety, both on level 3, nothing else
<schweers>
um. dunno, never used that. let me check
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<schweers>
I also sometimes have the contrary behaviour: I have a breakpoint somewhere, but the debugger (also) enters at some other time, which I did not intend.
<verisimilitude>
Have you tried other Common Lisp implementations, as well?
<schweers>
not yet, as I cannot use ECL, and CCL does not support single stepping, which is the point of this excersise
<schweers>
INVOKE-DEBUGGER does not seem to be what I want.
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<verisimilitude>
Alright.
<verisimilitude>
Will you give more context, then?
<schweers>
I’m not sure which context is relevant, that’s my problem
<verisimilitude>
Give all of it, then.
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<schweers>
I’ve got a piece of code which runs in a separate thread, which I’d like to single-step. Yesterday this worked, but now it just seems to skip the BREAK call :/
<verisimilitude>
If you don't want to, simply omit date of birth and SSN information; we've trimmed the context already.
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<verisimilitude>
Well, if it worked yesterday, then what changed since then?
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<schweers>
nothing, that’s what I find so weird
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<verisimilitude>
Something's obviously changed if it once worked and now doesn't.
<schweers>
well, nothing I can think of. something must have changed
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<verisimilitude>
How long is this program running?
<schweers>
not long, at least for small inputs
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<schweers>
why?
<verisimilitude>
Has it been running since you last debugged it?
<verisimilitude>
That is, when it behaved as wanted.
<schweers>
I’ve tried to run/debug it several times
<verisimilitude>
So, how large is this program?
<schweers>
it has not behaved as I’d like since I started working on this new feature in an extra git branch
<schweers>
a few Klines or so
<verisimilitude>
How many lines have been added in this branch that seems suspect?
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<schweers>
not many, 10?
<verisimilitude>
Does it work without those ten?
<schweers>
you mean the program itself, or the breakpoint?
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<schweers>
the program itself works, I might try what happens on the other branch with an added breakpoint
<verisimilitude>
I meant the breakpoint.
<schweers>
works
<schweers>
weird
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<schweers>
interesting. I forgot to change the optimization settings on the master branch to debugging. it still entered the debugger
<verisimilitude>
I figured your carefully selected OPTIMIZE settings were being changed somewhere.
<verisimilitude>
So, that solves that, right?
<schweers>
not sure, let me try something
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<schweers>
I don’t get it. the debugger works on the master branch, but not on the branch where I need it
<schweers>
I put a (break) call directly into the MAIN function, as the first statement, and I still don’t land in the debugger :/
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<verisimilitude>
What is actually being loaded into the Common Lisp implementation?
<verisimilitude>
Surely, it's a simple matter of locating the offending difference between these two and it doesn't seem like it's a very large difference.
<schweers>
what do you mean? I have a bunch of systems and I load one of them. Now, I found out something new. Because of a bug in one of the changes I made, the code which contained the breakpoint I actually wanted to debug was never called. So that mystery is solved. BUT: the breakpoint directly in the toplevel function I called is still not triggered.
<LdBeth>
I guess cached fasl files causes problems
<schweers>
Also, now that I fixed the aforementioned bug, the breakpoint I was interested in all along enters the debugger.
<schweers>
hm, fasls …
<schweers>
let me try something
<kammd[m]>
Hey guys is there any syslog (log shipper) implemented in lisp??
<schweers>
I deleted the sbcl directory in ~/.cache and I still have the same situation. While I am happy for the moment, as I can debug the code I am really interested in, I am a little confused that a previous call to BREAK does not enter the debugger, although said code is run in the repl thread and comes earlier (it’t the first thing it should do)
<verisimilitude>
I was also going to mention you should clear caches, schweers.
<kammd[m]>
LdBeth: I am more interested in reading logs and shipping it over to some remote entity.. Like logstash
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<verisimilitude>
This is an interesting excerpt from the HyperSpec:
<verisimilitude>
>The user interface aspects of break and cerror are permitted to vary more widely, in order to accomodate the interface needs of the implementation. For example, it is permissible for a Lisp read-eval-print loop to be entered by break rather than the conventional debugger.
<verisimilitude>
I'm still fuzzy on precisely what the issue could be, schweers, due to insufficient context.
<LdBeth>
kammd: seems you have to assemble a reader, a parser, and a mail program
<myrkraverk>
Is it possible to make a local binding, something like FLET, for a function created by a macro?
<schweers>
the heavy lifting is done in WAYSPLIT, which obviously calls a myriad of other functions. In one of these other functions I have a breakpoint which now works just fine (it was never reached, which was my own fault), but this is not the point. See that the very first expression in MAIN is (BREAK)? that is not triggered when I call MAIN.
<myrkraverk>
That is, when the macro returns a function, can I make it a local binding for the function space?
<verisimilitude>
So, Cloudflare prevents me from viewing this, schweers.
<schweers>
how so?
<kammd[m]>
LdBeth: Yep.. Was wondering if there is any library/tool which does some of that.. Don't want to reinvent the wheel..
<verisimilitude>
Cloudflare seeks out and blocks several types of VPN and whatnot and pastebin uses Cloudflare.
<schweers>
I call MAIN directly, so I know for a fact that the function is called. It’s in the same file as the other code I was discussing here, i.e. same optimizations. Any ideas why this (break) call does not enter the debugger?
<verisimilitude>
I'd recommend you try to use a different implementation and see how that debugs.
<schweers>
mind you that I don’t need the breakpoint there, I just put it there to see if it would trigger
<verisimilitude>
SBCL sometimes has bugs.
<verisimilitude>
I don't know enough about this particular issue of yours to know if it's a bug, but it's a possibility.
<LdBeth>
kammd: there’s not much wheels 😏
<myrkraverk>
Is there a way to SETF a function, which is created by a macro, to some kind of local (not top-level) binding?
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<verisimilitude>
Give an example of your earlier question, myrkraverk.
<kammd[m]>
LdBeth: heh.. I was afraid of that..
<myrkraverk>
verisimilitude: to be explicit, I want to bind locally a function (if possible) returned by postmodern:prepare
<verisimilitude>
So, you want something resembling this:
<verisimilitude>
(let (f) (lambda () (setf f (macro))))
<myrkraverk>
yes.
<verisimilitude>
Well, then do that; I don't see the issue.
<myrkraverk>
the macro returns a function.
<verisimilitude>
For an example of a macro that returns a function, see FORMATTER.
<verisimilitude>
So, simply MACROEXPAND-1 FORMATTER.
<LdBeth>
Macros is expanded before eval
<LdBeth>
So from the point of view of SETF it is just a function
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<myrkraverk>
The function created by the macro has arguments according to $Ns in the statement.
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<verisimilitude>
I'm not seeing the issue, myrkraverk.
<LdBeth>
Like Clojure’s anonymous function?
<verisimilitude>
Well, it's been fun; I'll probably return at some point.
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<myrkraverk>
Is what I have right now; since (prepare...) returns a function that takes indeterminate number of arguments, I don't know how to avoid the funcall, which I personally find ugly.
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<myrkraverk>
As in, in the general case; just wrapping it isn't what I wanted originally.
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<LdBeth>
myrkraverk: I would rewrite prepare to allow ignoring arguments
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<phoe>
myrkraverk: I use CL-YESQL that automatically turns SQL queries into CL functions.
<myrkraverk>
phoe: I'm quite happy with postmodern for the most part; it's only this slight "blight" when I don't want global functions that bother me.
<phoe>
myrkraverk: I remember there was a construct that allowed to lexically bind an anonymous function to a function name
<phoe>
YES
<loke>
phoe: (labels ((foo () (funcall fn))) ...)
<phoe>
serapeum:fbind
<flip214>
also, there's the (:select ...) syntax that would allow to fetch the number of parameters...
<phoe>
(fbind ((my-fn (prepare "select $1::text"))) (format t "~a" (my-fn)))
<phoe>
myrkraverk: this avoids an explicit funcall.
<loke>
phoe: doesn't FBIND expand into something similar to what I did?
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<phoe>
loke: not really. I remember that FBIND is much more complicated than that.
<loke>
phoe: Yes. I'm looking at it. It expands your FBIND into a MACROLET
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<loke>
I'm not sure that's what you'd expect
<loke>
You won't be able to do (fbind ((foo ...)) #'foo)
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<flip214>
ain't it easy to have a macro that uses a local inline function to do the FUNCALL (GENSYM)?
<loke>
I guess the macro stuff will be faster, but I'd much prefer a LABELS expansion.
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<loke>
flip214: exactly.
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<phoe>
beach: Have you thought about protocols in case of funcallable instances?
<phoe>
Because suddenly the object itself is funcallable, which does not fully fit in the definition of protocol described as a set of generic functions and protocol classes.
<pierpa>
I find PCL's style too condescending for my taste
<beach>
pierpa: Did you read it when you had no Common Lisp experience?
* jcowan
's reader skipped over "OS" and read "what you are on"
<pierpa>
No
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<jcowan>
I wanted to get permission to rewrite it as Practical ISLisp, but apparently the rights are very tangled.
<pierpa>
It came some 20 or 30 years too late for that :)
<Shinmera>
PCL, condescending? really?
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<jcowan>
eventually I should get back to my ISLisp effort
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<pierpa>
Unknown a lot of people likes it. That's just my taste.
<pierpa>
*I know
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<Shinmera>
I don't care whether you like it or not, I'm debating your assertion that it is condescending.
<jcowan>
I don't see how that can be usefully argued when it depends on perspective. One person's condescension is another person's welcomed handholding.
<Shinmera>
Or questioning, rather.
<beach>
Also, pierpa was in a very different situation when he read it, compared to that of shangul.
<shangul>
beach, decide on an implementation?going with something other than common lisp?
<beach>
shangul: Common Lisp is a language with many implementations.
<ldb>
i use clozure cl on mac
<shangul>
I thought Common Lisp is a Lisp implementation.
<beach>
It is not.
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<beach>
It is a standard.
<jcowan>
beach: I have tried to build the papers in the SICL tree, but some have no Makefiles, some don't build, and some build but don't produce the whole paper
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<jcowan>
I see from your links that some are on metamodules, but there seems to be no index of them
<shangul>
beach, the book(PCL) probably has picked one up. someone could go with that.
<beach>
shangul: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so that's the only language you will see discussed, but there are at least 3 reasonable general-purpose implementations, and a few more for special situations.
<beach>
shangul: It pretty much follows the standard.
<jcowan>
or rather there is an index, but it does not include either the LispOS or first-class environments papers
<shangul>
beach, And about editor, someone could pick what they are already good with it.
<beach>
shangul: That might not be a good idea for Common Lisp. Depending on what you are good at of course.
<beach>
jcowan: OK, let me check...
<shangul>
beach, I think you should explain these more to me.
<ldb>
and you don't necessarily need emacs
<beach>
shangul: Anyone here can explain it.
* jcowan
is insane enough to edit Lisp with "ex"
<beach>
shangul: Emacs with SLIME is probably the best environment for editing Common Lisp code.
* ldb
is a TECO user
<jcowan>
Coolness
* jcowan
was a Teco user but not lately
<beach>
shangul: If you use something else, you are not only depriving yourself of some important functionality, but are also likely to submit code that does not follow widely accepted conventions.
<beach>
shangul: And that is not polite to the people you are asking for help.
<beach>
shangul: So they are likely not to be polite back.
<shangul>
beach, are you talking about code's cleanness?
<jcowan>
Emacs sets the standard for "readable Lisp code"
<beach>
shangul: To begin with, simple things like indentation and spacing.
<jcowan>
or rather, its standard formatter does
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<beach>
shangul: corresponding to typographical conventions in a natural language.
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<beach>
shangul: Idiomatic code is at a higher level.
<ldb>
jcowan: emacs doesnt work well with heavy dispatch characters
* jcowan
nods
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<jcowan>
IIRC it also has problems with vertical-barred symbols that contain spaces
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<beach>
jcowan: The Bootstrapping paper is embryonic, but it has a Makefile and it builds for me.
<beach>
I am doing one at a time here.
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<beach>
ELS is not really a paper. It seems to be some kind of presentation, but it is probably not important.
<beach>
Control-flow is not yet a paper. I'll get back to you when it becomes one.
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<beach>
Environment-info is embryonic. You don't have to worry about it at this point.
<beach>
Generic-dispatch builds here.
<beach>
Global-environments builds here.
<beach>
LOOP build here.
<jcowan>
trying those three
<beach>
Merge-sort is embryonic. We don't have the research results yet. You can safely forget about it.
<beach>
Partial-inlining builds here.
<jcowan>
Are you familiar with Shivers's algo for mergesorting lists in constant space? It has problems when the implementation has a write barrier, as you might expect, but is very interesting
<beach>
jcowan: I can ask my favorite coauthor to do the commits so that it builds, but it won't be today.
<jcowan>
Thanks
<beach>
Sliding-GC builds.
<jcowan>
I wouldn't call the above trivial
<verisimilitude>
On the topic of how Emacs formats Common Lisp, I'm disappointed with how LOOP is done; I always manually format it.
<verisimilitude>
What do you think?
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<Bike>
there's a slime contrib that indents it differently
<dlowe>
I've changed the way I break up loop statements to look pretty on emacs
<beach>
verisimilitude: That's because you are not using the slime-indentation contributation.
<jcowan>
beach: Obviously I gave up prematurely
<beach>
Type-inference builds.
<beach>
I believe that's all of them.
<verisimilitude>
I'll look into that, beach; it's appreciated.
<beach>
verisimilitude: Anytime.
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<beach>
jcowan: He is optimizing by not breaking runs of ordered objects.
<beach>
jcowan: But that optimization is not necessary for it to be constant space.
<jcowan>
Indeed
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<beach>
Again, my research is about using merge sort on vectors. There are algorithms that use constant space already, but the overhead is often great.
<verisimilitude>
On that further topic of looping forms, which do you find yourself using often? ITERATE is nice, but its being a library makes it much less usable in many instances. LOOP is often most brief if you can fit your loop perfectly to it. I find myself using PROG and PROG* for many loops with complex control flow needs, but also with very simple loops that aren't perfectly expressed with the other macros.
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<beach>
jcowan: The point of the research is similar to that of the Reverse-order paper. Check how much stack is available, and use a big chunk of it. That way you avoid the overhead. If little stack is available (which almost never happens), then use the high-overhead constant-space algorithm published in the literature.
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<beach>
verisimilitude: I use LOOP a lot. It is very rare that I have such a complex control flow that LOOP can not express it. In fact, even control flow that LOOP can express perfectly well can be too complex for the maintainer.
<beach>
verisimilitude: For the others (typically state machines) I use TAGBODY.
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<jcowan>
Is the high-overhead constant-space algo you mention stable, and if so, is it natural?
<LdBeth>
verisimilitude: (loop (throw))
<pierpa>
ITERATE is nice, and if you want to maintain readability for LOOPers you can restrict yourself to the common subset
<beach>
jcowan: There are both stable and non stable algorithms in the literature. I don't know what "natural" means in the context of an algorithm.
<beach>
I mean, algorithms are made by people who are part of nature, so in that sense they are natural.
<jcowan>
exploits existing ordering, in the manner of Shivers's algorithm
<sjl>
verisimilitude: I use LOOP in my libraries to avoid forcing another dependency on users, but ITERATE in my own personal code
<jcowan>
which is O(n) when the input is already sorted
<beach>
But some people remove people from their concept of "nature" and then no algorithm is found in nature.
<verisimilitude>
Another reason I'd use PROG or PROG* over LOOP is to avoid needing to deal with the formatting issues or precede any Lisp with DO, so I'd call that a further advantage.
<beach>
jcowan: I don't remember. I think getting constant space is probably hard enough as it is.
<verisimilitude>
What about the algorithms animals use, beach?
<beach>
verisimilitude: I think that is off topic.
<verisimilitude>
Well, alright.
<pierpa>
jcowan: I have seen that property called "smoothness"
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<LdBeth>
The normal distribution of random typing
<verisimilitude>
I'd simply argue that algorithms are everywhere in nature, but I can see how that would diverge too much.
<jcowan>
beach: AYC can you send me a pointer to a stable constant space vector merge sort, either code or description?
<beach>
jcowan: You are asking a lot, especially since dinner is minutes away. I'll do my best, but you may have to remind me.
<jcowan>
AYC = at your convenience
<jcowan>
I will try and remind you
<beach>
jcowan: Fast Stable Merging and Sorting in Constant Extra Space.
<beach>
jcowan: Bin-chao Huang and Michael A Langston.
<jcowan>
ta
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<beach>
24 pages.
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* jcowan
fetches it with thanks to seagoing individuals everywhere
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<jcowan>
failed, but found elsewhere
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<beach>
jcowan: If you continue with this level of intellectual curiosity, you might even want to contribute to SICL one day. :)
* jcowan
is a busy, busy bee these days
<jcowan>
f/t industrial job, Scheme cat-herder
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<jcowan>
But I always have time to learn new things
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<jcowan>
if nothing else, while commuting
<beach>
Heh.
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<verisimilitude>
I'm curious if any of you discuss Lisp on imageboards, as there's one area in particular I believe some of you may find interesting.
<ldb>
SICP, Industial Common Lisp and purity in Scheme
<jcowan>
Purity of what?
<ldb>
of the S stared word
<ldb>
actually neither Scheme nor CL can be considered as "Pure" in my mind
<fourier>
pure only haskell and io and the family ?
<fourier>
and "Pure" language itself ofc
<ldb>
the only and true purity is not in haskell my friend but in data flow languages
<jcowan>
"Pure" is not pure
<jcowan>
nevertheless I love it; it is ML on the outside, Lisp on the inside
<jcowan>
ldb: FBP ftw
<dlowe>
yawn. purity isn't a worthwhile goal. it's a butterfly to amuse the idle.
<fourier>
ha indeed pure is not pure, i can see it now :) confused with Clear
<fourier>
*Clean
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<jcowan>
Pure purity is not a good thing, but mostly purity is, I think
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<jcowan>
how many people actually exploit the mutability of conses?
<jcowan>
Oh, Clean
<ldb>
i guess it is a pun
<jcowan>
I should learn about that some time
<jcowan>
"Pure" is like "SICL"
<jcowan>
not the name of anything else, sounds good, meaning irrelevant/unknown
<jcowan>
pervasive laziness is unmitigatedly a bad thing (as opposed to facultative laziness which is sometimes useful)
<jcowan>
Haskell is lazy only to force it to be pure
<Bike>
mutating conses isn't rare. messing with alists and such
<verisimilitude>
I agree, dlowe.
<jcowan>
Eh? The whole point of alists IMO is that you can push and pop things off them, which only works if they are pure. Plists are another matter.
<verisimilitude>
I use RPLACA and RPLACD a decent amount, jcowan.
<jcowan>
eek
<Bike>
i mean, in theory, yeah, but sometimes you have an alist where you know a key is there, like a cheap structure kind of deal
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<jcowan>
Sounds more expensive than an actual structure, but I see your point
<jcowan>
Racket switched to pervasive immutable conses and almost nobody noticed
<ldb>
jcowan: the first time i do prog i used a list to store data in emacs lisp and get f**ked by mutating conses
<jcowan>
(in the sense of "code broke" as opposed to "people made a fuss"
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<jcowan>
)
<verisimilitude>
You should look at the source to ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL as an example. To explain, I use the SGR, SELECT GRAPHIC REPERTOIRE, control function to change colors; this is a variadic control function and I express this in Common Lisp by requiring a list as the parameter; I didn't want to allocate a new list every time the relevant functions are called, so I have a CONS cell bound that I use RPLACA with to recycle whenever necessary.
<dlowe>
99% of the time, when I start by using nested generic sequences, I eventually end up converting it all to structures.
<jcowan>
One advantage of immutable pairs is that rest-lists need not be copied, nor do you need to do data flow analysis to make sure they are not mutated
<jcowan>
Rest-lists are the only point (in Scheme at least) at which the PL touches the data structures
<jcowan>
Despite this, we felt they were way too revolutionary for R7RS
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<ldb>
dlowe: in my opinion structs and arrays should be always choosed over lists
<Bike>
CL rest lists are already unmodifiable, it's just not enforced strictly
<Bike>
immutable conses would definitely be nice to have
<jcowan>
R7RS-large does have them with a complete parallel library
<jcowan>
parallel to the mutable-list lib, I mean, not parallel in the sense of parallel computing
<jcowan>
we also have random-access lists
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* ldb
hates trees
<verisimilitude>
That's not strictly true, Bike.
<verisimilitude>
With my understanding of the way the standard is written, you can modify rest lists, but only do so well if you make certain to never do this with APPLY.
<verisimilitude>
Even then, it seems like you could do even that, so long as you don't use a constant as the rest list.
<Bike>
"constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be freshly consed, nor modify that list structure" says apply
<Bike>
a few years ago i spent time implementing a scheme like language with immutable conses
<Bike>
handled circularity very well also, which was annoying to do and mostly pointless
<verisimilitude>
The beginning of that sentence is important.
<verisimilitude>
>Because a function can neither detect whether it was called via apply nor whether (if so) the last argument to apply was a constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be freshly consed, nor modify that list structure.
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<verisimilitude>
So, it seems fair game to modify the rest list, so long as it's not a constant and it doesn't need to be freshly consed.
<Bike>
i don't think it's relevant
<Bike>
i think if an implementation did whatever with rest lists and a user modified one and didn't get what they expected and complained, the implementors probably wouldn't care
<verisimilitude>
Well, they'd be within their rights to not care.
<verisimilitude>
If it pertained to this, anyway.
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<verisimilitude>
In practicality, constant modification is usually permitted and lists are probably simply usually freshly consed.
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<TMA>
verisimilitude: the whole sentence does not permit conforming programs to modify or expect freshness, there is no exceptions for programs that can provably avoid the APPLY
<verisimilitude>
It's the ``because'' that makes me believe this, TMA.
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<TMA>
verisimilitude: the emptines of the latter notwithstanding. an implementation is permitted to use APPLY during evaluation of all function calls
<verisimilitude>
It seems clear to me that it's saying that, since APPLY can recycle the rest list, it can't be expected to be freshly consed and, in addition to this, it's possible a constant may be used in this way, and so only because of this should it not be done.
<verisimilitude>
So, it seems to me that it simply derives from the constant modification rules.
<TMA>
verisimilitude: the 'because' is just a supporting argument in that case. it does not limit the prohibition in any way
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<verisimilitude>
I can also see that reading of it, yes.
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<verisimilitude>
I suppose, either way, it's splitting hairs, as an implementation is likely to only ever try to detect this statically and not care, otherwise.
<TMA>
verisimilitude: the other part is that if your interpretation of the standard were true, then adding (apply #'foo '(1 2 3)) to your *conforming program would render it nonconforming. It seems absurd that this is the intended reading. This could make any program with (APPLY ... constant) nonconforming.
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<verisimilitude>
That would only be the case if FOO modified its rest list, TMA.
* jackdaniel
this that this interpretation simply doesn't hold and there is no point in arguing for it
<jackdaniel>
(but has better things to do than fight for it)
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<jackdaniel>
thinks*
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<verisimilitude>
Well, alright. I thought it was a fun discussion, either way.
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<drmeister>
Hey - any vlime users online at the moment?
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<drmeister>
I'm trying to get it up and running. I have a server running and I'm trying to get vim to connect to it.
<drmeister>
vlime is installed (apparently correctly) in my vim.
<drmeister>
Typing \cc within vim generates an error message
<sjl>
drmeister: what message?
<sjl>
(I use vlime)
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<drmeister>
Hitting \ makes my vim say "doot" (error)
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<drmeister>
I'm editing a .lisp file
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<drmeister>
Are there any tests you recommend to see if things are configured properly?
<sjl>
drmeister: what does `:let maplocalleader` say?
<sjl>
I think all the Vlime shortcuts are prefixed with localleader, which most people have set as \ these days, but I don't know what the default actually is
<drmeister>
sbcl is saying: vlime-usocket - Server created: (#(127 0 0 1) 7002
<sjl>
try putting `let maplocalleader = "\\"` in your vimrc
<jackdaniel>
I see vim is as much fun as emacs
<drmeister>
sjl: Thank you for your time. I added that to .vimrc and restarted vim - no errors
<drmeister>
Now: :let maplocalleader --> \
<sjl>
yeah
<sjl>
are you familiar with leader and localleader?
<drmeister>
Hitting \ still makes vim say *boop* through the speaker.
<sjl>
Hrm
<sjl>
Just the \ on its own? or \cc?
<drmeister>
Just the \ on its own.
<drmeister>
\cc makes it delete the current line and puts it into insert mode.
<drmeister>
Not what I think it should be doing.
<sjl>
huh, that's odd.
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<sjl>
Well, if it's not mapped that's what it should be doing (\ -> unmapped, beeps, cc-> change current line)
<drmeister>
Yeah - definitely using :let maplocalleader I get...
<drmeister>
maplocalleader \
<sjl>
But Vlime should be mapping these keys in .lisp files
<drmeister>
I understand - something is not right.
<sjl>
You're saying it beeps/deletes in .lisp files, right? Vlime only maps in .lisp files
<drmeister>
I tried changing the localleader to _ (underscore) - and restarting - same behavior although no *bloop* but _cc puts it into change current line mode.
<sjl>
> 1. Add Plugin 'l04m33/vlime', {'rtp': 'vim/'} to your vimrc, then run :PluginInstall in Vim.
<drmeister>
I just assumed I needed Vundle - I haven't done plugins with vim.
<drmeister>
I haven't used vim in 6 years (but did for 20 years prior to that).
<drmeister>
Yeah - but what does 'l04m33/vlime' mean? That looks like a relative path - but relative to what?
<drmeister>
Is there a vim plugins directory?
<sjl>
drmeister: I assume that's the github user/repo which Vundle will clone down for you
<drmeister>
Yeah - but where is it supposed to go? I'm going to put it in ~/.vim/bundle for yucks
<sjl>
Like I said, I don't use Vundle. I know Vlime works great with Pathogen and I prefer installing plugins like that
<drmeister>
Pathogen?
<sjl>
let me PM you, this is veering more into Vim territory than #lisp
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<drmeister>
Thank you
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<jeosol>
morning guys
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<makomo>
evening :-)
<makomo>
jackdaniel: just wanted to let you know i enjoyed your McCLIM demo video, it was pretty cool! keep going! :-)
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<oleo>
did anyone solve the problem with reader-macros not working on clim-listener ?
<oleo>
it actually works it's just i can't call something like [1 .. 3] for createing say a list (1 2 3) by inputting that
<oleo>
i have to always use a extra () around it
<oleo>
like in ([1 .. 3])
<oleo>
i suppose i have define an extra command-table for it and/or command-translator....
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<didi>
Hey, I found out the greatest use of `result-form' from a `dolist' ever: A `push' form, which is only evaluated if the `dolist' doesn't eval a `return' form.
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<jackdaniel>
makomo: I'm glad you've liked it :)
<jackdaniel>
I plan to record video on creating gadgets (and since mirroring branch has been merged after two weeks of development I can get back to it)
<makomo>
that sounds exciting, looking forward to it
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<jeosol>
Anyone working with long running applications, how do you protect or account for failure before completion. A related problem, yesterday we had rain + thunderstorm in the night, woke up my computer tripped up -- UPS didn't last long
<jcowan>
Run on multiple machines, preferably in a commercial cloud
<jcowan>
If your house had been bombed, no amount of "reliability" would have helped.
<jeosol>
I am interested in options for saving state and possibly restarting. I have not done much, but have a small prototype that uses CLOS, saves the state in the object and writes to disk each step. Then I pick it up later and continue.
<jeosol>
jcowan: hahahaha
<jcowan>
OTOH perhaps you would not have cared so very much.
<shangul>
phoe, so pdf has its price and reading online is free, is it legal to download the htmls?
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<jcowan>
In practice you cannot read them without downloading them into your browser cache, so yes.
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<shangul>
And I suppose doing anything with those htmls for personal use is legal.
<nydel>
howdy phoe. i love to search the logs and see how even-dumber-than-today i was a while back
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<jcowan>
shangul: Depends on your country, but in practice, who's going to find out? Just don't redistribute the results.
<shangul>
jcowan, in my country there isn't any copyright at all. it is myself who tries to.
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<jcowan>
Then no worries, but if you do publish some derivative work, you should mark it as unauthorized to warn off any law-abiding people in Berne Convention countries
<jcowan>
(if any are left)
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<jcowan>
I don't understand this requirement in the HyperSpec under generic function lambda lists: "Zero or more required parameters must be specified." I don't see any circumstances in which this MUST could be violated.
<Shinmera>
(&optional foo)
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<jcowan>
That has zero required parameters, which is permitted by the MUST.
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<Shinmera>
Hmm, right
<Shinmera>
Could be another copypaste thing.
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<phoe>
well
<phoe>
jcowan: that's equivalent to "2 + 2 MUST equal 4"
<phoe>
just a meaningless sentence, happens in such written documents
<phoe>
big written specs and such
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<jcowan>
I carefully went through every instance of MUST, MAY, and SHOULD in R7RS-small and made sure they all referred to implementation requirements or non-requirements
<jcowan>
missed a few, though
<jcowan>
as opposed to user requirements, which are expressed as "It is an error if/unless ..."
<jcowan>
alternatively: An error is signaled / An error satisfying <predicate> is signaled
<jcowan>
The Google CL stylesheet appears to require that code spell "connection" as "connexion", since it is (a) British and (b) shorter.
<jcowan>
I bet they don't, though
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<blurgh>
Can "sbcl --load" take multiple files? (ex: sbcl --load ~/lisp/stumpwmrc.lisp ~/lisp/startstump.lisp)
<Shinmera>
yes, just write --load for each file
<sjl>
blurgh: you have to use --load before each, but yes
<blurgh>
sjl: so "sbcl --load ~/lisp/stumpwmrc.lisp --load ~/lisp/startstump.lisp" will work?
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<sjl>
blurgh: it should
<sjl>
works for me
<Shinmera>
It's often much faster to just try something rather than asking people about it.
<blurgh>
sjl: thanks
<sjl>
yep
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<blurgh>
Shinmera: I'd have to restart my computer if I did that right now. It's complicated. Sorry about bugging you guys.
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<sjl>
blurgh: he means doing like `echo '(print 1)' > a.lisp && echo '(print 2)' > b.lisp && sbcl --load a.lisp --load b.lisp`
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<sjl>
not necessarily rerunning your actual command
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<ldb>
#help
<ldb>
do we still have a message bot here?
<phoe>
ldb: which message bot?
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<ldb>
phoe: something i can leave a note to other offline users
<Bike>
minion: memo for ldb: i think like this
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell ldb when he/she/it next speaks.
<phoe>
minion: memo for ldb: there's minion and this is his syntax
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell ldb when he/she/it next speaks.
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<didi>
There's also /msg memoserv
<ldb>
thanks
<minion>
ldb, memo from Bike: i think like this
<minion>
ldb, memo from phoe: there's minion and this is his syntax
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<Shinmera>
::help notify
<Colleen>
Documentation: Send a notification message that will be displayed as soon as the user speaks again.
<ldb>
minion: memo for verisimilitude: seem you used something like `&aux (&optional ...)' in `cl-ecma-48', but Clozure CL I use complains about that because lambda list keywords are specially treated in ccl
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell verisimilitude when he/she/it next speaks.
<k-hos>
now this makes me wonder if you can get a bot chain going between these two
<Shinmera>
Please keep such experiments out of this channel.
<k-hos>
:>
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<antergos>
hello
<ldb>
k-hos: usually that can be solved by a black list
<ldb>
antergos: greeting
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<fourier>
how to create a constant hash-table? I've tried alexandria's define-constant + (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ..), but on any attepmt to recompile the file (sbcl) i got an error on define-constart for my hash-table
<fourier>
the error is like: +TIMESTAMP-FORMAT-MAPPING+ is an already defined constant whose
<fourier>
#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUALP :COUNT 0 {100479A723}> under
<fourier>
equal to the provided initial value
<fourier>
value #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUALP :COUNT 9 {10032D0563}> is not
<fourier>
#<FUNCTION EQUALP>.
<fourier>
[Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
<fourier>
so obiviously since i have filled the hash table in (eval-when) it is different from initial value
<fourier>
so the question is how to fill it without using the eval-when
<Bike>
define-constant has a :test argument
<fourier>
I know the list of keys and values beforehand
<Bike>
what are you using as the test?
<fourier>
hm let me roll out something real quick...
<Bike>
i'm not sure i understand what "copies" are involved
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<Bike>
meaning at load time?
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<Bike>
i suppose it's possible
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<fourier>
ok off for now, will think about all organization tomorrow. the problem is even more annoying as it seems to work with LW but fail with SBCL :(
<fourier>
will ask here for help tomorrow if couldn't solve it
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<Bike>
sbcl is strict
<Bike>
probably just use defvar like people said, though
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<aeth>
I run into plenty of things that run in SBCL but fail with CCL.
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