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<k-hos>
adding code from anonymous people seems like a bad idea to me
<k-hos>
not that having an account somewhere really means anything
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<jasom>
is there a library that provides atomic increment/decrement operations across implementations?
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<sukaeto>
quicklisp competitor.
<sukaeto>
(good luck with that)
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<Xach>
i think competitors are good! for real. there are different needs and priorities.
<jasom>
In this case a separate distribution makes more sense though.
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<sukaeto>
Let's just say that verisimilitude hasn't been making the best impression on me since they've showed up here. I'll try to hold my tongue from here on out.
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<Bike>
i am curious if/when quicklisp will be non-beta. of course it works pretty fine as-is, and i vaguely remember the block being documentation
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<Xach>
Right now I'm trying to finish download verification
* Xach
hopes to break not much when that rolls out
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<p_l>
Xach: I've been thinking recently about possibly packaging QL into separate static executable, kinda like roswell, to provide an environment a bit more familiar to newcomers (and to be able to easily link with TLS libs for verification)
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<Xach>
p_l: many years ago i thought about using clisp for that
<p_l>
I'd probably go with ECL :|
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<Xach>
solidarity
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<z3t0>
hi all
<z3t0>
does anyone here have experience writing qt applications on osx?
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<z3t0>
I am using QTools with SBCL and am having the application and sbcl crash once a window receives focus
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<iqubic>
lets say I have an alist.
<iqubic>
like prettify-symbols-alist and I want replace the entry ("<->" . 8596) with ("<->" . 8660).
<iqubic>
Or if "<->" is not associated with anything, then I want to just add ("<->" . 8660)
<iqubic>
How can I do that in lisp?
<Bike>
(setf (alexandria:assoc-value "<->" alist :test #'string=) 8660) is how i'd do it probably
<iqubic>
What the heck is alexandria:assoc-value?
<Bike>
something from the alexandria library
<iqubic>
I see. Why do you have to pull in a library for what I assume would be a simple operation.
<Bike>
you don't, it's just slightly easier than writing it out yourself
<iqubic>
And an alist is just a list of cons cells. Sorta like a map.
<Bike>
an alist is an implementation of a map, yea
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<iqubic>
Now, what is a plist?
<Bike>
an alist is ((key1 . value1) (key2 . value2)), a plist is (key1 value1 key2 value2)
<iqubic>
I see. Why do people ever use plists?
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<Bike>
they have basically the same performance characteristics as alists, and match function call syntax
<iqubic>
Oh I see.
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<iqubic>
So I can interchange (cons a b) and (a . b) anywhere in my code, right?
<iqubic>
That has no functional difference, right?
<Bike>
no
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<Bike>
(cons a b) is a function call that creates a cons
<Bike>
(a . b) is the display syntax for a cons
<Bike>
'(a . b) will evaluate to a cons, but it won't be freshly allocated at runtime, and as pierpa alluded to, a and b won't be evaluated as they would be in (cons a b)
<iqubic>
so I should use (cons a b) then?
<Bike>
probably.
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<iqubic>
Now, this is going to sound stupid, but the THEN and ELSE arguments of the if macro can only ever be one s-exp, right?
<iqubic>
Or is it a list of s-exps?
<iqubic>
No. Emacs tells me that COND is only ever one s-exp, but ELSE can be as many as I want.
<loke>
beach: Thanks. I'd appreciate even the slightest hint as to where the problem could originate.
<beach>
Sure. This is an important issue.
<beach>
Oh, so it has nothing to do with text?
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<beach>
OK, I can reproduce the problem. That's a start.
<loke>
beach: not this one, no. There are actually two separate issues relating to output records. I stumbles on both of them at the same time, but I discovered they are separate.
<beach>
Oh, yes, might as well fix this one first.
<loke>
The onw I posted just now is actually independent of the text. I'm still researching a good proposal for the other one.
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<beach>
loke: I'll start working on this one.
<loke>
The text issue has to do with the fact that DRAW-TEXT is underspecified in that the output record can't draw transformed text. I have some ideas how to fix that one.
<loke>
But issue #476 is just baffling to me. :-)
<beach>
The first thing I will do is to stick a call to Clouseau in there and examine the output-record hierarchy.
<beach>
That is usually one of the first things I do.
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<loke>
What is cluseau?
<loke>
The really weird part that I don't understand is why the second box gets revealed as I resize the window.
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<beach>
Clouseau is the inspector.
<beach>
[of course]
<loke>
Well of course. :-)
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<beach>
Crap. Someone seems to have modified the inspector so that it now writes to standard-output, and it modifies the output history.
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<beach>
loke: My tools are failing me, so this is going to take more than a few hours. I'll work on it during the day.
<loke>
beach: Thanks!
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<z3t0>
this is odd, for some reason qTools works just fine using ccl on macos whereas sbcl fails horribly
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<mfiano>
It's a known bug, and stassats recommends opting in to the mac beta (he said he won't fix it)
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<xieyuheng>
just finished reading chapter 4 of `the little prover` :)
<xieyuheng>
wish to help to maintain acl2 ~
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<jasom>
z3t0: the issue also affects cl-sdl2 and glfw
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<hajovonta>
hi
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<beach>
Hello hajovonta.
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<xificurC>
in sbcl, the implications/limitations of `eval` are the same as of `compile` right? The manual states that `eval` is mostly just (funcall (compile nil (lambda () ...)))
<xificurC>
is there a good, down-to-earth explanation of lexical and dynamic environments? I understand the concepts from other languages but am failing to extrapolate the knowledge here. E.g. to understand why `eval` cannot see the lexical scope and how is the lexical and dynamic scope actually implemented
<xificurC>
next: the sbcl manual states that fasls are binary compatible only with the version they were compiled with. Can I write a load-compile function that will always load a fasl compiled version of the given file by recompiling the source code file when necessary?
<xificurC>
I'll hope for someone smart to chime in :) Oh and the topic needs updating sbcl version :)
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<phoe>
xificurC: if you use ASDF to load your systems, it will automatically recompile the files when necessary.
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<xificurC>
phoe: we are using sbcl as a scripting environment right now, loading asdf for each invocation is too costly
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<phoe>
xificurC: you can make an SBCL image with ASDF pre-loaded.
<xificurC>
phoe: I can make an image with all the libraries pre-loaded, can't I. I'm saying we are using a clean image as the distribution provides and loading things as needed
<hajovonta>
phoe: thanks for the contribution, I'll test it asap
<phoe>
hajovonta: woop, which contribution
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<hajovonta>
cl-expect
<xificurC>
the moment we start creating our own image is the moment we have moved from distributing scripts to distributing compiled units
<phoe>
xificurC: I see.
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<xificurC>
I for one don't see a problem with that but my manager disagrees, so :)
<phoe>
xificurC: in layman's terms, dynamic environment consists of everything on the stack; lexical environment consits of everything inside a given pair of parentheses.
<phoe>
this is why when function A invokes function B, the lexical environment of A does not move over to B, because B is defined in a different pair of parens, but the dynamic environment from A moves over to B, because A and B are both on the stack now.
<xificurC>
phoe: I would expect lexicals to be on the stack too :o
<phoe>
xificurC: lexical environment no longer exists after compilation.
<xificurC>
never mind, stupid remark
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<phoe>
an implementation can keep some symbol references for debugging purposes, but other than that, the lexenv disappears after compiling code.
<xificurC>
phoe: this leaves the implementation the option of e.g. keeping the lexical env in registers?
<aeth>
Lexical variables can be optimized, and they're known. Usually even the type is known. SBCL is only really "fooled" by numbers and sequences.
<phoe>
xificurC: sure, but why? It is no longer required.
<phoe>
An implementation *can* keep it for debugging, etc., but other than that, it's a by-product.
<aeth>
It's implementation-specific, but they're probably kept at (debug 3) and not at (debug 1) (speed 3)
<aeth>
That's at least a reasonable decision for implementors
<xificurC>
phoe: ok i see what you mean I think, you're saying the compiler can optimize the usage so that the resulting assembly will have no trace of it
<phoe>
xificurC: yes, exactly.
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<aeth>
xificurC: Consider the case of a constant value.
<xificurC>
poor eval
<phoe>
"poor"? not really
<aeth>
(let ((x 42)) ...)
<phoe>
EVAL behaves just as defined in the standard
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<xificurC>
I mean "poor eval, now he can't see the lexical"
<xificurC>
left behind to allow optimizing
<xificurC>
thanks, that cleared things up
<xificurC>
now for load-compile :)
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<blep-on-external>
how can i get a rust writer to pick up lisp?
<blep-on-external>
i can't find many selling points nowadays
<beach>
You probably can't.
<xificurC>
rust is *huge* and compiled only, with no normal REPL (last time I checked). CL is not just compiled, fully interactive, garbage collected... Hard to compare the 2 isn't it?
<capisce>
huge compared to CL?
<blep-on-external>
that's true
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<blep-on-external>
i'm not selling it to a compsci student or a mathematician: this is a person neckhigh in modern bollocks
<blep-on-external>
they
<blep-on-external>
*they're afraid of the GC, want thread safety, blahblah
<xificurC>
capisce: CL is huge in a different way. If you learn parentheses and a couple more things you know the language and can start reading about what's in the standard.
<aeth>
blep-on-external: Show them something that normally is written in C++, but is written in CL instead. (Which of course implies that the GC doesn't matter that much in the end.)
<xificurC>
tell me how long will it take for a newcomer to learn all of rust's syntax and semantics
<blep-on-external>
right
<blep-on-external>
i dunno, but i didn't get the macro syntax (and still don't)
<blep-on-external>
cl macros are just more cl
<xificurC>
I'll circle back to my question about load-compile - I can imagine the logic being: if no fasl or incorrect version or older than .lisp recompile, then use fasl. How can I check for the incorrect version?
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<jackdaniel>
there is no portable way
<jackdaniel>
cdr has been defined for that afair
<jackdaniel>
some implementations will warn you and reject such fasl with error when you try to load it
<jackdaniel>
others will simply load it (ecl khm), even if version doesn't match
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<jackdaniel>
on my todo list™
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: I'm talking strictly sbcl here
<xificurC>
blep-on-external: I think rust macros were at least partially based on racket's syntax-parse
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<jackdaniel>
where? I fail to find it, you say CL everywhere (except the last one)
<jackdaniel>
I encourage you to type (apropos "FASL") in your implementation of choice
<xificurC>
jackdaniel: the first time I asked, which was when I joined. Not sure if you were around at that point
<jackdaniel>
also spending 30s on looking in sbcl's manual yields the answer
<blep-on-external>
looks pretty pattern-matchy, which is what i saw looking at them first
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: I found that in the manual in 30s too, but it's a mixture of sbcl's internals and various asdf operations. I couldn't find docs for invalid-fasl
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<phoe>
xificurC: you could try a very silly way
<jackdaniel>
sb-ext:invalid-fasl is signalled, when you try to load invalid fasl
<xificurC>
jackdaniel: thanks, that's all I needed to go on :)
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<xificurC>
phoe: re lexical environment and its existence - how does let-over-lambda work?
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
Xach: Thank you for mirroring so much of the lisp usenet posts. Google groups has been very annoying lately.
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<phoe>
xificurC: it creates closures
<phoe>
(let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))
<phoe>
(funcall *) ;=> 1
<phoe>
(funcall **) ;=> 2
<phoe>
(funcall ***) ;=> 3
<phoe>
and so on
<Petit_Dejeuner>
xificurC: Are you asking about how it's implemented?
<phoe>
Petit_Dejeuner: he's been having questions about how lexenvs and dynenvs work
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
"lexical environment no longer exists after compilation." probably worth saying that lexical environment means the same as static environment
<Petit_Dejeuner>
or at least that lexical/static are user interchangably, (static is the opposite of dynamic)
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
user/usually/s
<Petit_Dejeuner>
Wow, I can't type at all.
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<White__Flame>
more practically, the mappings from symbolic names to lexical variable locations no longer exists after compilation
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<White__Flame>
at least, in ways you can use. The internal debuggers probably remember
<DemolitionMan>
hi
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<phoe>
Hey
<DemolitionMan>
please is there a way to allow/prevent the reader to read code depending on *features* contents? I need to read source code depending on :x86 or :x86_64 keyword. Thanks
<White__Flame>
re
<phoe>
DemolitionMan: *read* code?
<phoe>
you can use #+x86
<phoe>
if the reader conditional does not exist, the reader will read over the next form and treat it as non-existent
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<xificurC>
Petit_Dejeuner: so when e.g. a defun is being compiled (let's talk sbcl) it checks it's lexical env scope and compiles everything necessary in? Where does such a lexical env exist after compiled? stack? heap? register?
<jackdaniel>
xificurC: term you are looking for is closure
<jackdaniel>
check it out on the web. common lisp (as a programming language) has closures
<Petit_Dejeuner>
xificurC: I'd imagine heap, but it's probably implementation dependent.
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
I wouldn't know. I don't hack SBCL.
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<xificurC>
jack_rabbit: I know the term, thanks, doesn't answer the question
<xificurC>
fix jackdaniel: ^
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<phoe>
xificurC: these variables live on the heap afterwards.
<phoe>
they are normally garbage-collected.
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<xificurC>
phoe: thanks
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<drmeister>
Does anyone know how to write debugging output from slime that doesn't interfere with its regular communication?
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<jackdaniel>
xificurC: if you know the term, then you should read about closure allocation strategies.
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<jackdaniel>
I'm aware that I may sound not nice, but I suggest it because looking up things indivudually is a useful skill
<jackdaniel>
not because I want to be the bad guy, don't get me wrong
<xificurC>
jackdaniel: is it really such a sin to ask for a tldr in an IRC channel? If I wanted to attain deep knowledge of the topic and couldn't find good resources I would ask for resources. If I'm looking for a short answer for a short question "go google [xyz]" is really not that helpful
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: it's hard to read someone's mood or character from text but it started to seem to me you like what you're doing to me :)
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<jackdaniel>
I think that asking for a tldr is a big distractor and a noise, yes
<xificurC>
jackdaniel: re looking up things - my usual process is: 1) look it up; 2) if couldn't find look it up another way; 3) if couldn't find look it up another way; 4) ask for help. For a thought on that I'm coding something for a week and this is the first time I came for advice
<phoe>
_death: I am applying the changes to PROTEST that you suggested
<jackdaniel>
yet your question create an impression, that you didn't bother to look things up. either way, I've already stated my opinion on the matter
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: I agree that my language or usage of terms might give that impression. Thanks for the link, I'll give it a look
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<phoe>
in SLIME, ow can I make a symbol highlight the same way as the symbol ERROR?
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: interesting read, thanks
<ebrasca>
Xach: Why you think it is good to have competition to quicklisp? (ql is good)
<phoe>
competition is always good because it creates growth and ideas.
<ebrasca>
And fragmentation
<dlowe>
Given the current size of the userbase, I think I'd rather have more people contributing to the quicklisp infrastructure than more infrastructures.
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<DemolitionMan>
phoe: thanks
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
tbh, I'd rather just have a more modular quicklisp
<Petit_Dejeuner>
different package lists
<Petit_Dejeuner>
also, irrc, quicklisp is rather insecure
* Petit_Dejeuner
should probably be hacking something together
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<dlowe>
Sure. Being able to subscribe to, depend on, and maintain multiple repos would be key here
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<dlowe>
that's infrastructure work
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
Were M-, and M-. never bound by default?
<dlowe>
I think it's a common binding for many modes
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
Er, what I mean is I used to be able to use them in slime without any configuration, but now they aren't bound.
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<Petit_Dejeuner>
I can still jump with the corresponding M-x command.
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<pyc>
Is buildapp necessary? Isn't sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die enough to build a distributable executable binary?
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<jackdaniel>
pyc: buildapp is meant to be portable and make things easier. it works on sbcl and ccl
<jackdaniel>
I'm presonally using net.didierverna.clon which works on more implementations, provides good abstraction for command line options and on top of that is well documented
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<jackdaniel>
note that asdf also provides make for building binaries
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<Xach>
pfdietz: I am putting together a docker image that contains all the necessary foreign libraries for building everything shipped in quicklisp.
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<hajovonta>
Xach you are a hero
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<Xach>
this will be mostly useful for testing, i think?
<jackdaniel>
having superpowers certainly helps ^_^
<Xach>
pyc: i made buildapp because i wrote the same type of lisp file to load stuff and call save-lisp-and-die all the time
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<Xach>
it is a program that automates writing that kind of lisp file and loading it. i also could not figure out how cl-launch worked.
<Xach>
now there is cl-launch, net.didierverna.clon, asdf built-ins, and probably more besides.
<Xach>
so many options
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<pfdietz2>
Xach: nice!
<pfdietz2>
(re docket image)
<pfdietz2>
docker
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<Fare>
I noticed, too late, that there was a difference in calling convention between cl-launch and buildapp -- cl-launch calls a main function with argv[1..] while buildapp calls it with argv[0..]
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<beach>
It just occurred to me, the Intel "bug" where speculatively executed instructions do not check for permission, wouldn't that bug also affect Common Lisp systems that rely on the hardware to for GC write barriers?
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<Xof>
beach: the real problem in that bug was read permission of sensitive data that the user process shouldn't have been able to read
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<phoe>
beach: this bug may affect any operating system, including a possible LispOS.
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<jasom>
beach: I'm not sure why that mattters; it's a data-exfiltration bug, not something that affects the correctness of programs
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<Bike>
the idea is something like, a write is speculatively executed in a way that ignores the write barrier,which fucks up whatever that fucks up?
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<phoe>
the idea is: you guess a number, and try to check if some value at a memory address X is equal to that number. You are forbidden from reading that value by the system security.
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<phoe>
But the CPU optimizes things in order to be fast. It pre-executes the instruction and keeps parts of it in its cache, so it can return the result as soon as it checks that you are allowed to read from that address.
<yoel>
roswell question: How may I make my .clisprc.lisp loaded by default?
<Bike>
i meant the idea of it affecting gc.
<phoe>
yoel: ~/.roswell/init.lisp
<phoe>
oh. How could it affect GC though?
<phoe>
You need to execute lots of instructions to be able to exploit that bug, and then you can only read memory that you have pointers to.
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<rme>
the spectre/meltdown bugs wouldn't affect gc write barriers implemented via the vm system
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<beach>
Ah, OK.
<beach>
But why not?
<yoel>
phoe: thanks
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<phoe>
yoel: this file is read by all implementations. you might want to #+clisp some code.
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<yoel>
Yes - that what I did. However, now quicklisp doesn't find any system (I used it to load a newer version of ASDF)
<rme>
memory reads made by speculatively executed instructions affect micro-architectural state (namely the L1 cache), enabling a side-channel leak. the defined architectural behaviour of the processor remains correct.
<rme>
In other words, unsuccessful speculatively-executed instructions leave evidence behind (in L1 cache) that they should not.
<Xach>
yoel: where is your system located?
<phoe>
yoel: doesn't your quicklisp come from roswell?
<yoel>
I tried both for systems in the repository and in local-projects
<phoe>
ros should automatically pull and install quicklisp and your systems should be located in ~/.roswell/local-projects
<yoel>
it seems that now ONLY the .clisprc is loaded. The content of my init.lisp is: #+clisp(load (compile-file #P"~/.clisprc.lisp"))
<yoel>
verified with -- --verbose.
<phoe>
yoel: how do you run your clisp now? `ros run`?
<yoel>
ros run -L clisp
<phoe>
are your systems in ~/.roswell/local-projects ?
<yoel>
yes
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<yoel>
bot setup.lisp isn't being loaded
<yoel>
*but
<phoe>
weird.
<phoe>
you could try purging and reinstalling roswell from scratch.
<beach>
rme: I think I got it. Thanks.
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<rme>
it's hard to explain well in a few lines of irc
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<yoel>
phoe: my mistake - setup.lisp IS being loaded but it can't find components (such as: *** - Component "alexandria" not found )
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<light2yellow>
I don't understand the picture from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression . why is it branching to the left at the third empty node? why does it have nil as the right child?
<yoel>
it probabley has nothing to do with init.lisp per se but for loading ASDF 3.3.1.7 at the end of the process (as clisp built-in version is 2.26)
<Xach>
clisp has no built-in version
<phoe>
light2yellow: NIL is the empry list in Common Lisp.
<Xach>
2.26 is what comes with quicklisp as a "last resort"
<light2yellow>
phoe: yes
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<Xach>
you may have better luck if you load asdf 3.<whatever> as early as possible
<phoe>
the list (1 2 3) is actually (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))) in cons notation
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<light2yellow>
phoe: yes
<phoe>
and (3 . NIL) points to 3 from its left side and to NIL from its right side.
<phoe>
as to why it branches to the left, it is because this expression is (* 2 (+ 3 4))
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<light2yellow>
phoe: yes. how does the list evaluation rules affect the representation?
<light2yellow>
do*
<phoe>
branching to the left means that you have another nested list.
<yoel>
Anyway I added the +#clisp to setup.lisp and it works.
<yoel>
I usually use SBCL on Linux and CCL on a Mac. I tried CLISP and it didn't work so I decided to learn from the problem. Thank you both!
<light2yellow>
okay, now that I see how to construct a (* 1 2) through cons (there couldn't be any other way anyway, sigh), I guess I am able to figure this out, thank you jasom
<jasom>
light2yellow: of course most of the time you'd just do (list '* 1 2) but what's happening under the hood is the cons
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<light2yellow>
yes, I know, spent quite some time trying to understand the recursiveness of all the definitions. in the end it's very simple
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<light2yellow>
the eye-opener this time was that I can use an operator quote (which is just a function, which is just a symbol, which is an atom) in the cons
<phoe>
light2yellow: actually QUOTE is not a function but a special operator
<phoe>
it could not work as a function because of Lisp evaluation rules.
<phoe>
because, if it was a function, it would have its argument evaluated, which is exactly what we want to prevent.
<jasom>
you could always use (cons (intern "*" "COMMON-LISP") ...) instead
<jasom>
and do it without quote, but that's a bit silly
<light2yellow>
no, I mean an arithmetic operator, phoe. by "operator quote" I meant (quote op), where op is some operator
<phoe>
oh, okay
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<jasom>
light2yellow: ah in this case op more properly is a symbol that names an operator
<light2yellow>
aha
<jasom>
'+ is a symbol. That symbol names a function
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<light2yellow>
jasom: that intern usage, is that to prevent name clashing or smth? if smb redefines * for me?
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<light2yellow>
I mean, I suppose I know what intern does - it returns an object given a string
<jasom>
light2yellow: that intern is what the reader does for you when it encounters a symbol. (read-from-string "*") will intern "*" in the current package
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<light2yellow>
I see
<jasom>
assuming the current package has used the common-lisp package, then it will yield common-lisp:*
<jasom>
it's different from '* because the symbol gets interned at run time, not read-time
<jasom>
but the function returns the symbol, so it was a silly trick to get a symbol without having to use QUOTE
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<light2yellow>
oh, it makes sense now
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<jasom>
lisp does some really fancy things with some really simple primitives, so the first 3 years or so I used it I overthought *everything*
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<light2yellow>
is sequential evaluating guaranteed by ANSI CL? I suppose it isn't? otherwise progn wouldn't exist?
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<light2yellow>
evaluation*
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<Xach>
light2yellow: it is specified as left-to-right.
<Xach>
light2yellow: to put more than one form in IF branches.
<Xach>
and other places that allow for only one form.
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<jasom>
also to have macros return more than one toplevel form
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<light2yellow>
a question about slime. with this snippet https://pastebin.com/LgrXKbZa , if I slime-eval-buffer, I get the correct NIL in the end, but if I select everything and slime-eval-region, it returns T. what's going on?
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<phoe>
light2yellow: are you sure that your *a* is not modified across your checks?
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<phoe>
try defvaring and setting *b* instead of a
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<light2yellow>
phoe: I guess I figured it out. if I select the line after the last one too (which is the end of buffer or whatever), it returns T for some reason.
<light2yellow>
if I select just the lines containing code, it works
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<rme>
defvar only sets the value if the variable in question is not already set
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<light2yellow>
right, never mind, it returns nil and t in sequence after each evaluation - once former, once latter. so, thanks, rme, defparameter solves it
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<phoe>
_death: I've applied your solution to PROTEST and it works much better now. Thanks for pointing the issue out to me!
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