<Bike>
(t) is a call to the function called t, which doesn't exist.
<insi>
ah
<insi>
how do i just return "t"
<Bike>
just write t
<Bike>
(if (eq s sempty) t nil)
<insi>
ohhhh
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<insi>
nice
<insi>
thank you
<insi>
that makes sense
<Bike>
of course, eq already returns a boolean, so you can just do (eq s sempty)
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<insi>
even better! :O
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<Bike>
also, it's traditional to name constants as +sempty+ to distinguish them from run of the mill variables.
<insi>
ohok cool, didn't know that
<insi>
so am i to understand, if an expr. is surrounded by () it is a function call ? ie (T)
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<Bike>
i wouldn't phrase it as "surrounding", but (foo ...) is an operation, and if foo is a function it's a function call.
<Bike>
it could also be a macro form, like (defun ...) is, or a special operation, like (if ...)
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<k-hos>
you will eventually come across things like; '(1 2 3) which isn't a function call, because of the single quote
<Bike>
'(1 2 3) is short for (quote (1 2 3)) which is a special form/operation.
<insi>
ahh i seeok
<Bike>
if you want to understand the semantics in detail i recommend writing a simple evaluator
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<PuercoPop>
hello #lisp!
<iqubic>
Morning PuercoPop.
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<LdBeth>
Hi, is there any way to run a external program with interactive interface in CL
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<jasom>
LdBeth: most lisp implementations provide a way to run a program. It is possible that uiop:run-program will do what you need
<PuercoPop>
jasom: I think they mean something like htop
<jasom>
PuercoPop: run-program should handle htop just fine, right?
<jasom>
hmm (uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive) didn't work as I expected, so maybe not
<PuercoPop>
jasom: My knowledge of terminals is not very deep. But I would imagine that the REPL wouldn't play nice with a program that takes the whole screen for a while. Like htop or vim.
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<jasom>
PuercoPop: the REPL is uninvolved until the form returns in most implementations, so I wouldn't think that would be a problem
<jasom>
(uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive :input :interactive) ;; works on sbcl on MyMachine(tm)
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<jasom>
It does not work on CCL, which makes at least some sense because ccl has a separate REPL thread IIRC
<jasom>
It works on abcl 1.5
<PuercoPop>
ah so if the REPL doesn't write to stdout it won't interfere with htop.
<jasom>
PuercoPop: right
<LdBeth>
Yes, I mean something like htop, or an editor
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<ealfonso>
is Hunchentoot recommended?
<LdBeth>
Is it possible with CFFI?
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<jasom>
PuercoPop: for fancy REPLs there is a good chance that the program won't return the tty to the same state as before it was run, so those might have a problem. SBCL's REPL is so minimal it's not a problem
<jasom>
LdBeth: this works on every lisp I tried except ccl: (uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive :input :interactive)
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<LdBeth>
jasom: Thank you
<PuercoPop>
I've ran into issues with two programs writing to the same terminal (webpacker and vis, the editor).
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<ealfonso>
what is a recommended modern restful service library/framework?
<jasom>
There's a patchset for CCL that doesn't spawn a separate thread for tty interactions, but it's not maintained anymore
<jasom>
ealfonso: there are several, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I usually just write directly on top of clack because I'm a control freak.
<jackdaniel>
so I suppose it is some off-the-shelf widget for editing
<edgar-rft>
CCL has a GUI editor that runs only on mac
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<jackdaniel>
ah
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<makomo>
morning
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<shrdlu68>
Morning makomo
<makomo>
beach: it seems that your psychology essay uses 2 different fonts (at least on my machine). the paragraphs around the list and the list itself: https://i.imgur.com/Vkd79qN.png
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<makomo>
beach: what works is adding the same "font-family" rule for the "body" tag (and perhaps you can then remove it from the other tags?)
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<beach>
makomo: Oh, thanks.
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<beach>
Not sure how to do that, though.
<makomo>
beach: i added the "body { font-family: font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; }" rule to your css
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<beach>
makomo: Thanks. I'll put it in.
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<makomo>
:-)
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<beach>
I uploaded a new css file. Can you check whether it made a difference?
<beach>
I didn't see the problem you saw, so I can't check it.
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<light2yellow>
is atom a symbol as per hyperspec?
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<beach>
Anything that is not a CONS is an atom.
<beach>
So a symbol is an atom, but there are atoms that are not symbols, like arrays, hash tables, streams, standard instances, etc, etc.
<light2yellow>
iiuc, while reading McCarthy's '60, they use 'symbol' in a casual way, e.g. they use 'atomic symbol' to say 'atom', so what is the additional terminology burden on the term 'symbol' since their work?
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<beach>
It's the other way around. At the time, the only atoms were symbols and number (as I recall). So to preserve the relationship between atoms and CONS cells when new types were added, they all because atoms.
<beach>
The current concept of a symbol is pretty much the same as it used to be.
<beach>
Symbols these days have packages and some other stuff they may not have had at the time.
<light2yellow>
okay, so, the definition of atom got much broader. I read both definitions (per '60 and per hyperspec), but didn't realize that got that much broader
<beach>
If you look at the Notes part of the function definition, you will see: (atom object) == ... == (not (consp object))
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<beach>
Or you can look in the glossary: atom n. any object that is not a cons. ``A vector is an atom.''
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<light2yellow>
yes, it is more clear now. okay, how are symbols connected to symbolic expressions? sexp is an atom or cons of sexps, and cons contains car and cdr, which each are defined recursively, i.e. "car is a first argument to cons", so, can I say that symbol is an sexp? or what is the logical conclusion between these two?
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
The term S-expression is used in two different ways. Either as a nested structure in memory of objects. Then any Common Lisp object is an S-expression.
<beach>
The other use of it is for surface syntax.
<beach>
In the second case, you will see things like parentheses mentioned.
<light2yellow>
which is what I'm missing for the glossary
<light2yellow>
i.e. I also want such index for the glossary
<beach>
I don't understand.
<beach>
You want all terms on one page?
<light2yellow>
I see where it's coming from, it's because the glossary is a separate chapter
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<light2yellow>
yes, either that, or a separate one-page index for glossary
<light2yellow>
I'm saying this because some of the terms are already included in the symbol index, for example, 'atom' has a cross-reference to the glossary
<light2yellow>
as a proof that there aren't all of them there, try to find 'expression'
<light2yellow>
it is in a glossary and only accessible through the letter E
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<beach>
How are you trying to find `expression' that fails?
<beach>
`expression' is not a standard Common Lisp symbol.
<light2yellow>
I know, but I guess there might be people here who are somehow related to the hyperspec, so they might see it and implement one day
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<light2yellow>
I know it's not a symbol
<beach>
So why would you want it on a page entitled "Symbol Index"?
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<light2yellow>
so, that's why I said that "either that", 'that' being putting all terms into one index, "or" creating a similar index for glossary terms
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<beach>
light2yellow: My I suggest you help phoe create the CLUS then. Then you can fix this yourself.
<light2yellow>
CLUS is hardly ever googleable
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<light2yellow>
(that means I have no idea what you're mentioning, and it doesn't ggl)
<edgar-rft>
learn howto Google, found it at the first try: phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/
<loke>
edgar-rft: Someone who doesn't usually google for lisp stuff might not find anything clus-related
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<light2yellow>
I never go to the second page, so maybe that. also, that link returns 522, rip
<edgar-rft>
light2yellow, it was the very first link after the ads
* loke
just tried searching in a disposable VM in Qubes (i.e. completely clear environment), and the real CLUS doesn't show up in the first 4 pages of Google at least. Didn't search further than that.
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<edgar-rft>
then help google by asking for "Common Lisp CLUS" or something
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<edgar-rft>
there are many lisp programmers at google and they don't want to tell you their inner secrets :-)
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<light2yellow>
I even found "clonal lymphocytosis of uncertain significance"
<light2yellow>
but yeah, appending "lisp" found it
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<loke>
Right
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<knobo>
Is sly the recommended over slime, now?
<jackdaniel>
I don't think so. there is a community around sly, but slime is still more commonly used
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<jackdaniel>
as a side note, when I improve ecl backend, I usually contribute to slime, not sure if they backport these changes
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<light2yellow>
what is the official name of standard library? the one which contains e.g. cons, car, cdr functions
<light2yellow>
is there any at all?
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<light2yellow>
or is it being put like "the implementation of the dialect should define blablabla"?
<jackdaniel>
"standard library" is part of CL standard, so there is no need to load anything
<jackdaniel>
standard symbols are all in "CL" package
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<jackdaniel>
(and in CL-USER, which imports all symbols from CL)
<light2yellow>
yes, but how are they called in the standard? "standard symbols"?
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* jackdaniel
does not understand
<jackdaniel>
any conforming implementation must have these two packages and symbols defined in the standard
<jackdaniel>
it may have more
<light2yellow>
I also find it hilarious that ANSI publishes a "standard", and then sells it for money. how is this a thing? same with C
<light2yellow>
is there any explanation to this?
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<jackdaniel>
I don't understand many things as well, but texinfo sources are public domain and there are freely available standard resources build from them
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<light2yellow>
"I will publish a standard, proclaim one to be so, but make it closed-access so that..." what? I doubt they earn any money, that's firstly, secondly, why are you called ANSI, you should be a non-commercial org
<light2yellow>
yes, of course, finding it or downloading from speacial resources is not an issue
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<light2yellow>
the issue is the motivation behind their actions
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<light2yellow>
ah, texinfo is available
<jackdaniel>
well, this is not a good place to complain, I suggest #lispcafe instead
<light2yellow>
that's better
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<light2yellow>
yeah, got carried away
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<edgar-rft>
light2yellow, the "Common Lisp Standard" already includes the standard library. The symbols of the standard Libary there are called "the symbols in the COMMON-LISP package".
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<edgar-rft>
from former conversations I knew light2yellow wants words Google can find :-)
<light2yellow>
jackdaniel: I wanted to hear what is understood under standard library in CL, in more or less official form, since there's no such term as "standard library". now I know that there are packages, and COMMON-LISP is the standard package (i.e. not technically called "library"), and that is where standard "symbols" are defined. that's what I wanted to know
<light2yellow>
exactly :)
<theemacsshibe[m]>
If you write symbols without in-package, they go in COMMON-LISP-USER
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Functions that you define live there too
<theemacsshibe[m]>
CL-USER also imports the CL symbols
<Xach>
cl symbols are visible in cl-user by inheritance!!
<theemacsshibe[m]>
That's probably wrong actually, I don't get cl packages that much.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Oh, I see
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<edgar-rft>
AFAIK sympols are imported, not inherited. So it's a matter of importance, not inheritance :-)
<light2yellow>
now, another question. is it up to implementation and/or interpreter to define what cons (as a function: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cons.htm) yields? for example, (cons 1 nil) => (1) -> a list, okay. (cons nil nil) => (NIL) -> same as (), an empty list, okay. (cons nil 1) => (NIL . 1) -> so, specifically a dotted pair. I know that cons is a dotted pair and a list is implemented
<light2yellow>
using cons, but won't it break somewhere if I was to pass it somewhere else, something that expects a list - since this is not a list, because a list ends with nil
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
cons takes any two types. Other conses can just be printed nicely.
<Xach>
light2yellow: yes, it can break.
<Xach>
light2yellow: in some cases it is specified that something will error if the object is not a "proper list"
<theemacsshibe[m]>
A list is just some nice conses where each CDR is just more of the list or nil
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
List recursion like mapcar and loop .... in will fail because the final cdr isn't another cons, saying it's not a proper list.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Oh wow
<light2yellow>
thanks
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<light2yellow>
regarding first part of the question, is it up to interpreter's pretty-printer to show me either a list, or a dotted pair, or does it show me exactly what objects will be yielded and passed?
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Hi GNU_PONUT
<GNUPONUT[m]>
Hi
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
I believe implementations have to make a fancy list printout if possible, dotting the last cdr if needed.
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<Xach>
light2yellow: the pretty print dispatch table generally controls it.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Also what books can I give GNU_PONUT to learn Lisp? They know some C(++) and Python already.
<Xach>
light2yellow: that is why '(defun foo () bar) at the repl prints as (DEFUN FOO () BAR) and not (DEFUN FOO NIL BAR)
<Xach>
theemacsshibe[m]: i like practical common lisp and paradigms of ai programming, both available for free.
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
I see. I've finished PCL and started Norvig's works, and they're great, but idk how accessible they are for people used to algol syntaxes.
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<Xach>
it takes time to get used to new syntax no matter what. some people take less time, some more.
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
That's true.
<light2yellow>
so, then I guess interpreters will yield a list if car of the last cdr of the last list cons is nil
<Xach>
light2yellow: "yield"?
<light2yellow>
"return"
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<light2yellow>
but I think "yield" also should make sense in CL?
<Xach>
light2yellow: i don't really understand what operation you mean by "yield" or "return" - if the data structure exists, it exists.
<light2yellow>
during evaluation, that is
<Xach>
what happens with a list (whether proper, dotted, or circular) depends on what you try to do with it.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Also, reading A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation made me see NIL technically isn't (NIL . NIL) since NIL is just a symbol with odd traits
<jackdaniel>
yield is usually used in coroutine context, it is more related to execution than returning anything
<jackdaniel>
generators may yield values
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<jackdaniel>
in CL you return 0 or more values
<light2yellow>
okay then, I'll replace all "yield" usages with "return" in my head
<splittist>
light2yellow: the 'interpreter' is doing three things: reading, evaluating, and printing. It might be easier to think of them separately. The reader returns an object or signals an error, for example.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Aren't yield and return different in python?
<light2yellow>
well, that's a repl
<light2yellow>
can't by CL interpreted? only compiled?
<light2yellow>
like, a .lisp file
<light2yellow>
s/by/be/
<theemacsshibe[m]>
It can be both.
<jackdaniel>
lisp code may be interpreted, most implementations do at least minimal compilation though
<jackdaniel>
C code may be interpreted too btw, I don't remember the project name
<theemacsshibe[m]>
CLISP (is dead, and) interprets bytecode. It's not very fast and does type checks all the time, so it seems interpreted basically.
<phoe>
theemacsshibe[m]: not actually dead, it has some recent commits although it does not have a recent release
<light2yellow>
jackdaniel: yeah, actually, true. I remember reading smth on this (regarding C interp)
<jackdaniel>
isn't interpreting bytecode an execution?
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<jackdaniel>
and you compile to bytecode
<jackdaniel>
so I wouldn't call clisp an interpreter
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Nice. CLISP is a friendly common lisp imo
<theemacsshibe[m]>
CPython compiles to bytecode too, but it's an interpreter.
<jackdaniel>
also clisp does a lot of optimizations before it produces bytecode (and it has jit infrastructure etc etc)
<phoe>
theemacsshibe[m]: a lot of the CLISP friendliness comes because it comes with readline bundled
<jackdaniel>
I would think twice before calling clisp an interpreter, but sure, lines are blurred at some cases
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Interesting.
<light2yellow>
so, it translates input to an internal representation? if so, it's more like jvm, which isn't considered an interpreter. but python vm (despite the name) is, since it just eval()s stuff. so, I suppose CL interps can do both - translate into IR (internal representation) or eval()?
<theemacsshibe[m]>
That's true. readline is the only thing I miss from SBCL (without slime)
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Yep.
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
The only parts of the system that cares about how the code is run are the user, their patience and any nearby clocks.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
s/cares/care. I hadn't thought of the speed joke before writing that.
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<shrdlu68>
Given that there's this much interest in readline support in sbcl, how come it hasn't been implemented yet?
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<jackdaniel>
linedit gives you readline support
<jackdaniel>
with symbol lookup etc
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<jackdaniel>
it works on sbcl and ccl (though it has its warts afaik)
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<light2yellow>
Xach: you said it can break (see my question about pretty-printing the object which cons returns), but I've discovered there's type-of function, and (type-of (cons 1 nil)) and (type-of (cons nil 1)) both return CONS, so I rpobably don't understand how it can break, since type of a list is CONS
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<jackdaniel>
list is a cons, cons is not necessarily a list
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<jackdaniel>
if you call a function, which is meant to work on lists, on a cons (which is not a list)
<jackdaniel>
it may break
<light2yellow>
ah, okay
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<jackdaniel>
like: cat is an animal doesn't imply, that animal is a cat
<light2yellow>
shrdlu68: that actually makes sense, since if I nest conses, the only way for them to be a proper list is to have cdr of the cdr of the cdr... until the innermost cons's cdr to be nil (that's from experimenting with interp)
<shrdlu68>
Ok, so a list is a cons whose cdr is a cons or nil.
<jackdaniel>
NIL is also a list
<jackdaniel>
but it is not a cons
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<jackdaniel>
as flip214 pointed out (and the glossary entry says)
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<light2yellow>
yes, because this is (cons nil nil)
<jackdaniel>
no, NIL is not (cons nil nil)
<jackdaniel>
(cons nil nil) will evaluate to (NIL), while NIL will evaluate to NIL, which is an atom
<light2yellow>
ah, nil
<jackdaniel>
and atom by definition is not a cons
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<light2yellow>
yes, makes sense
<shrdlu68>
So a list need not be defined in terms of conses.
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<jackdaniel>
well, it could be: proper list is either NIL or a cons chain with the last element being NIL
<shrdlu68>
> list n. 1. a chain of conses in which the car of each cons is an element of the list, and the cdr of each cons is either the next link in the chain or a terminating atom. See also proper list, dotted list, or circular list. 2. the type that is the union of null and cons.
<light2yellow>
nice recursion
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<light2yellow>
since NIL is a list
<jackdaniel>
or even better: it is either nil or a cons where car is list's head and cdr is list's tail (and must be another list)
<shrdlu68>
Someone update the glossary.
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<jackdaniel>
glossary is correct
<shrdlu68>
But then how does one construct nil using cons?
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<jackdaniel>
see 2.
<shrdlu68>
Ah, either 1 or 2.
<jackdaniel>
it may be empty chain
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<verisimilitude>
It shouldn't be difficult to write a Readline replacement purely in Common Lisp; maybe I should do that soon.
<verisimilitude>
Anyway, hello.
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<verisimilitude>
Since #quicklisp is rather dead, I'll ask here: Would you tell me why my packages haven't been accepted into quicklisp yet, Xach?
<jackdaniel>
common question would be: did you create an issue on quicklisp-projects repository & do they work on at least two CL implementations
<dlowe>
it shouldn't be difficult. haha.
<dlowe>
maybe if you only want it to work for one terminal emulator
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<phoe>
or unless you don't use github or git at all
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<shrdlu68>
It shouldn't be difficult, certainly, but won't be possible purely in CL.
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<jackdaniel>
so, if we are presenting our opinions (because why not!) it will be difficult and even harder in pure cl ;-). but I will back down if someone will ask me for any arguments to support my opinion
<verisimilitude>
I don't have a github account, jackdaniel.
<phoe>
then you should. it's what you describe as a "readline replacement purely in Common Lisp"
<shrdlu68>
I assert that it would be impossible without using some sort of FFI.
<verisimilitude>
I appreciate it, phoe.
<shrdlu68>
...as linedit does.
<verisimilitude>
As for the portability, jackdaniel, it works on anything supporting a full seven bit character set, as the only nonstandard dependency.
<jackdaniel>
shrdlu68: why would it be impossible? I mean – do you have an example of an operation which wouldn't be possible?
<jackdaniel>
note that I'm not saying it will be a time well spend ;)
<verisimilitude>
You don't need C just to control a terminal device; as I'm gradually showing, Common Lisp clearly does it better.
<shrdlu68>
jackdaniel: Yes, disabling echoing and buffering.
<dlowe>
we... have posix bindings already
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<verisimilitude>
That's a good point, shrdlu68; now, I wanted to entirely avoid providing that, but I've begrudgingly done so and support several implementations so far.
<dlowe>
and they aren't FFI, they're syscalls
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<dlowe>
(which shares a lot of machinery by nature, sure, but there's no library importing)
<verisimilitude>
Currently, I have support for Allegro, CMUCL, SBCL, ECL, and am working towards it for CCL and others.
<shrdlu68>
Yes, of course, but one would have to add these syscalls to each implementation individually, or use FFI.
<verisimilitude>
However, I don't believe this should be done in Common Lisp; it should be done before it's entered, instead.
<shrdlu68>
verisimilitude: How have you done it?
<verisimilitude>
So, it mostly looks the same across implementations.
<verisimilitude>
Either the implementation has functionality specifically for this or I end up using bindings to tcgetattr and tcsetattr.
<verisimilitude>
For ECL, I wrote C code to do it with FFI:C-INLINE.
<jackdaniel>
verisimilitude: this is not pure CL
<shrdlu68>
Thought so.
<verisimilitude>
I know, and I very much dislike that.
<verisimilitude>
I don't use this functionality, I'm merely providing it because some interested parties wanted it.
<verisimilitude>
After all, why have echo streams and READ-CHAR and whatnot when you can use disgusting POSIX code, instead?
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<verisimilitude>
It's a disgrace.
<jackdaniel>
shrdlu68: OK, you are right on that, you can't use escape sequences to control certain things apparently
<beach>
light2yellow: ANSI is a commercial organization just like most standard organizations in the world. They publish standards for money.
<dlowe>
if you run on a C OS, C makes the rules
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<verisimilitude>
It's disgusting that UNIX breaks just about every programming language that has character granular input.
<verisimilitude>
The very notion of line discipline is stupid.
<verisimilitude>
But, so are most POSIX design decisions.
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<verisimilitude>
My suggestion, since the Common Lisp program is launched by something else, is to disable system echoing and buffering beforehand, if you need it disabled; this is what every program should do, unless it truly needs control over this during program execution, which it probably doesn't.
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<jackdaniel>
I say: go for it, prove your point (especially since it is easy)
<phoe>
^
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<verisimilitude>
That's what I'm doing, yes.
<verisimilitude>
So, that linedit only claims to work well on SBCL; what poor form.
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<shrdlu68>
verisimilitude: What does "character granular input" mean?
<verisimilitude>
So, some languages don't provide a character input primitive.
<verisimilitude>
As an example, APL doesn't.
<verisimilitude>
Common Lisp, however, has READ-CHAR, which is such a primitive.
<shrdlu68>
Oh, so supposedly one can only read a line in APL?
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<verisimilitude>
So, Common Lisp has character granular input as a primitive, whereas other languages don't; this is a good example of Common Lisp providing functionality real programs need.
<verisimilitude>
Yes, APL only has a primitive for that, shrdlu68.
<phoe>
verisimilitude: SBCL and CCL it seems.
<dlowe>
verisimilitude: it's common to focus on one implementation and then branch out to other implementations as needed
<shrdlu68>
I also don't understand "The very notion of line discipline is stupid.", as opposed to what?
<shrdlu68>
What is "line discipline"?
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<verisimilitude>
So, UNIX doesn't send you the actual characters typed in, by default; that would be too simple.
<verisimilitude>
The line discipline says things such as ``Translate this character to that character.'' or ``Only send input after this many characters have been typed or so much time has passed.''.
<shrdlu68>
I see.
<verisimilitude>
If you think of POSIX like a retarded Microsoft, it's as if a fool's way of inconveniencing everyone else.
<light2yellow>
is a term "s-expression" used anywhere in the spec?
<verisimilitude>
It doesn't seem to be, light2yellow.
<verisimilitude>
Now, ``expression'' is, certainly.
<light2yellow>
yes
<light2yellow>
thank you
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<beach>
light2yellow: It is not. I just grepped the TeX sources. It is in a comment but not in the specification text.
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<beach>
light2yellow: Did you see what I wrote about ANSI?
<beach>
light2yellow: You seem to have a strange idea about what the word "standard" means.
<light2yellow>
beach: I saw, yes
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<light2yellow>
I don't think it should a commercial act
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<beach>
light2yellow: Because it has "American" in it?
<verisimilitude>
Well, you can get a last draft gratis, light2yellow.
<beach>
Like American Broadcasting Company?
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<verisimilitude>
Besides, the version sold by ANSI is a scanned copy of poor quality.
<light2yellow>
if it's a programming language which is supposed to have an open specification, and be allowed to implement, the specification shouldn't be paywalled
<beach>
light2yellow: That is not how standards work.
<light2yellow>
no, I don't have any prejudices against USA, beach
<beach>
light2yellow: The C standard is also standardized by ANSI and then ISO.
<beach>
ISO is also a commercial company.
<shrdlu68>
light2yellow: The standards body supposedly needs to pay for pencils and paper clips,
<verisimilitude>
Technically, wouldn't only the implementors need a copy, necessarily; I don't know if implementors received a free copy or not, but they probably didn't.
<beach>
light2yellow: Nobody has to pay to implement the standard.
<verisimilitude>
I believe it was Lispworks that said the final draft was equivalent and so should just be used.
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<beach>
light2yellow: You seem to only now discover how standards work in general.
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<tfb>
verisimilitude: no, it wasn't LW, they did not even exist at the time
<light2yellow>
beach: yes, I don't know how the standards work. it would be great if you link or expain
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<phoe>
verisimilitude: not LW but members of the X3J13 committee.
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<beach>
light2yellow: The important aspect of a standard is that it is published by an organization independent of those who then apply it. So if Microsoft publishes the specification of C#, then that is not a very good standard at all.
<jackdaniel>
light2yellow: I believe some effort on your side (like trying to look yourself in wikipedia for that instance) would be more polite than asking for explanation
<phoe>
also, they *are* equivalent. The standard is just dpANS3 with new labels and front page attached to it.
<shrdlu68>
I think light2yellow's point is that the specification itself should be freely available.
<verisimilitude>
I meant I believe Lispworks had such a notice on its website.
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<beach>
shrdlu68: But, as I said, that is not how standardization organizations operate.
<beach>
shrdlu68: They are commercial companies.
<phoe>
it is freely available enough with dpANS3 and CLHS. the ANSI standard itself is not available but for all practical purposes its readable representation does not even have to exist.
<cess11_>
beach: Or non-profit associations.
<phoe>
for reference, there is CLHS and slowly-crawling CLUS; for original text, there is dpANS3.
<light2yellow>
jackdaniel: if I knew what to look for, I would have already looked. as I said, I don't understand why ANSI pdfs are paywalled, I think they should not. that's what I said
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<phoe>
light2yellow: ANSI make money off them. Simple.
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<cess11_>
light2yellow: They need to pay their bills.
<beach>
cess11_: Sure, that is another option. Like I said, the important aspect is that the standard be published by someone other than those providing implementations.
<jackdaniel>
yes, but can you honestly say, that you did try to look? (my pre-last remark, the last one is that this discussion belongs to #lispcafe)
<cess11_>
beach: It is the option ANSI chose.
<tfb>
verisimilitude: there was in fact a big saga about whether the final draft of the standard (which circulated freely at the time and which I'm sure all implementors had copies of) could be published in the way it now has been. I don't know if the details of that saga are now readily available. For CL the question is moot now.
<beach>
cess11_: Yes, I see that. Thanks for the correction.
<light2yellow>
jackdaniel: okay, sorry for the off-topic
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<verisimilitude>
Well, Microsoft did push their OOXML or whatever through an independent standards body, but it was clear what really happened.
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<verisimilitude>
So, it's not enough to just be published by an independent organization. It needs to pass a common sense ``smell test'' of sorts.
<verisimilitude>
I dislike that phrase ``smell test'', but there's not much of a better way to put it, I suppose.
<verisimilitude>
Still, I suppose that's a tad off-topic, the OOXML nonsense.
<beach>
The fact that the standard should be published by an independent organization is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it to count.
<foom>
tfb: FWIW, that's the same compromise that's in place for C and C++ standard documents for a few decades now.
<tfb>
foom: yes, for the same reasons I bet, it may even be that the CLHS was the test case in some sense
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<phoe>
tfb: dpANS3 was placed in the public domain by members of the X3J13 committee.
<phoe>
Pitman didn't release CLHS without getting enough approval stamps on it.
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<tfb>
phoe: This is off-topic but I don't think it was. That was certainly the intention but I think the copyright situation is less clear than it might be (KMP's document talks about this I think)
<tfb>
(was placed in public domain I mean)
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<phoe>
tfb: you are correct. For me, for all practical purposes, dpANS3 is public domain enough. Even ANSI does not care about Common Lisp - see the sorry excuse for the standard that they sell.
<Xach>
When I talked to Kent Pitman, he said his intent was that people could create derived works of the dpans without limit.
<tfb>
phoe: yes, agree
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<Xach>
this was in the context of creating a bound version of the spec
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<verisimilitude>
Hello, Xach.
<beach>
I have started converting the dpANS files into something that can be compiled with a single call to `pdflatex'.
<beach>
jackdaniel: First time I see it, I am pretty sure.
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<jackdaniel>
OK, then it may be worth looking at, Currell Berry did work on TeX sources and produced a very nice-looking pdf document from them
<beach>
jackdaniel: Nice thanks. I'll examine whether that is usable to me.
<jackdaniel>
and all his work with this regard is available
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<rme>
1. incorrect usage of foreign pointers; 2. bugs in code compiled at (safety 0); 3. (more rarely, but it has been known to happen) bugs in ccl.
<beach>
jackdaniel: My purpose is to modify it and add an appendix that explains changes from dpANS to WSCL.
<jackdaniel>
(especially Draft B – pdf document which has an outline)
<Xach>
rme: ok, thanks.
<jackdaniel>
uhm
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<rme>
also, beware that some libraries have been known to do things like (declaim (optimize (safety 0))). In ccl, those are pervasive. (declaration-information 'optimize) will show current settings.
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: what do you mean "uhm"?
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: basically "I see"
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: I see :), "uhm" in english generaly has a connotation of thinking, like you're making a vocalized pause and haven't finished your thought, just a heads up
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<verisimilitude>
Since #quicklisp is rather dead, I'll ask here: Would you tell me why my packages haven't been accepted into quicklisp yet, Xach?
<beach>
jackdaniel: Thanks for pointing me to it. I will definitely check whether it is usable.
<jmercouris>
beach: you wish to amend the standard?
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<jmercouris>
or have you decided that changing the standard means changing the language, and therefore you are creating a new language with cl as its basis?
<beach>
jmercouris: I am a bit busy. The README says it all.
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<jmercouris>
beach: ok, will read
<jackdaniel>
[rather heads down, that train departed already ;)]
<Xach>
rme: It looks like I'm in that situation - (speed 3) (safety 0) in effect.
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<Xach>
Oh, hmm, I read it backwards, never mind.
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<rme>
you can set ccl:*load-preserves-optimization-settings* to t if you use libraries that do that sort of thing.
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<phoe>
rme: is it currently possible to do an equivalent of sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy in CLC?
<phoe>
CCCL*
<phoe>
CCL*
<rme>
one more thing: default optimization settings are tested the best
<Xach>
rme: I have a function that is signaling an invalid memory operation but it's not clear to me which specific form is causing it. I don't see obvious foreign calls and it's compiled with high safety. Will keep digging.
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<phoe>
Xach: which system is it in?
<Xach>
The top of the backtrace is CCL::%CALL-NEXT-METHOD-WITH-ARGS
<Xach>
phoe: private.
<rme>
phoe: there's a thing in ccl called a compiler-policy that can be manipulated, but it's not documented in the manual
<rme>
OK. That's the development branch. Could you possibly try the release branch (https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/tag/v1.11.5), and see if it works there? Maybe you've found a bug in the development branch.
<Xach>
rme: I can try it. But I was hoping to have the complex float bug fix too.
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<rme>
I understand. But if we can determine that the bug is in 1.12-dev, then I can try to fix it.
<Xach>
Ok, will try & report
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<Xach>
rme: Ok! Yes, it is a bug in 1.12-dev. But it is in private code. Not sure how I can properly reproduce and report :(
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<beach>
jmercouris: Anything you find unclear about the README?
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<jmercouris>
beach: Yeah, I am wondering how this is different from some projects that aim to "extend" the lisp language by adding some standard "modernizaion" features
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<jmercouris>
I can't remember the names of these packages, but I remember them being quite controversial
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<jmercouris>
s/modernizaion/modernization
<phoe>
cl21?
<jmercouris>
phoe: yes
<beach>
jmercouris: It is different in that I plan no extension whatsoever.
<Fare>
for standard modernization, see clojure
<phoe>
cl21 flips the language upside down, beach's wscl doesn't AFAIR change anything in the specified behavior
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<phoe>
and only focuses on what's unspecified and/or undefined
<Fare>
what does WSCL stand for?
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<beach>
Correct. Anything that is specified in the Common Lisp standard is specified in the same way in WSCL.
<phoe>
well specified common lisp
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<verisimilitude>
So, this seeks to restrict behavior further?
<Fare>
in ACL2 ?
<beach>
Fare: I take it you didn't bother to follow the link.
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<beach>
jmercouris: What happens if ARRAY is not an array?
<Fare>
what about pathnames? Will you scour the mess?
<jmercouris>
I'm not sure, it doesn't seem to say
<beach>
jmercouris: According to the Common Lisp HyperSpec, the implementation can then do anything, including erasing your hard disk.
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<verisimilitude>
What is your opinion on the permitted sharing behavior of Common Lisp, beach?
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<beach>
jmercouris: But there is a page that says, if the type of an argument is violated, then the behavior is unspecified.
<verisimilitude>
That is, many functions and whatnot of Common Lisp permit structure to be shared or objects to be freshly created or not.
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<Fare>
will you specify pathnames enough to make them usable on arbitrary Unix paths?
<beach>
Fare: Probably not.
<beach>
Fare: But I might consult someone to help me with it.
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<beach>
Fare: It would certainly be a good thing to do.
<Fare>
respectively Windows paths, on Windows, etc.
<jmercouris>
beach: I guess you will revise this and come up with some sort of type error?
<beach>
jmercouris: Yes, and probably only in so called "safe code" (which is formally defined).
<beach>
jmercouris: But all implementations already signal a type error anyway, so I am not doing anything controversial here.
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<jmercouris>
Yeah, I've raised it myself many a time :D
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<Fare>
(of course, paths become even more "interesting" if you have to deal with per-filesystem Unicode normalization...)
<beach>
"signaled". Errors are signaled in Common Lisp, not raised.
<jmercouris>
yes, sorry, I've been doing python for the past 2 weeks
<beach>
Sorry to hear that.
<verisimilitude>
I believe the users of Common Lisp are sufficiently different from the users of C that arguments that lead to a hellish interpretation of the standard won't happen or would be ignored.
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<phoe>
beach: you might also want to change 13.1.4.3.4
<verisimilitude>
That is, there's enough Common Lisp implementations that already follow the spirit of the language, as opposed to how C fares.
<Fare>
(and of course, you can never know for sure what file system will be used to interpret a given path)
<phoe>
because this subchapter is not followed by any modern CL implementation due to how Unicode works.
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<beach>
phoe: The good thing is that not everything has to be done right away.
<phoe>
beach: yep
<beach>
phoe: And that I can gather together a "standards committee" of experts that I can select myself.
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<Xach>
beach: have you read the emails on that topic from the early 80s? it is some interesting history.
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<beach>
phoe: I certainly won't take advice from the numerous newbies in #lisp who have opinions about how the language or the standard ought to change, without having the slightest idea about how languages are created, nor how they are implemented.
<Xach>
beach: because they thought they were private, they talked freely and frankly about who was unsuitable and why.
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<beach>
Xach: I think I must have read them, but I can't keep those things in my memory.
<beach>
Xach: That is no doubt an interesting read.
<Xach>
I worry that they will be lost from the internet's memory some time.
<beach>
Let's try to avoid that.
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<jmercouris>
The information if beamed into space, will never be lost
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<jmercouris>
I think people were onto something when they came up with that early memory that involved waves bouncing around in mercury
<loke>
jmercouris: mercury delay lines?
<jmercouris>
loke: yea
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<jmercouris>
the universe could make a very long "persistent" memory in the same way
<Bronsa>
Fare: I love clojure but "for standard modernization see clojure", is just nonsense, clojure is not standardized in any way
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<loke>
Bronsa: A lot of design choices in Clojure are outright bad. If those are called "modern" I'll stick with old thankyouverymuch.
<warweasle>
Bronsa: That's fairly common with lisp. Common lisp threw in almost everything from the existing lisps.
<warweasle>
loke: Same with Arc. Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon.
<ealfonso>
sorry if this seems trivial, but how do I get the address of a SB-SYS:INT-SAP: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD411ED00)
<Bronsa>
loke: I am not trying to sell clojure to you, feel free to stick with common lisp
<loke>
Bronsa: I've written quite a bit of CLojure.
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<Bronsa>
warweasle: "Common lisp threw in almost everything from the existing lisps" that's not really true, but not relevant. What I was saying is not that clojure is different (which it is), but that it doesn't have a standard or a spec, so suggesting clojure as a "modernized standard" is nonsense IMO
<Bronsa>
eugh, warweasle sorry I misread "threw in" as "threw away", ignore me
<ealfonso>
I tried (sb-mop:class-direct-slots (class-of my-ptr)), which returns nil
<Bronsa>
loke: cool, me too, so what? :) again all I said is that clojure is not standardized, I havent questioned your knowledge of clojure or promoted it so I don't understand the uncalled attack on it
<verisimilitude>
So, is poor debugging, which is still the case with Clojure from what I've read, considered modern?
<verisimilitude>
It's certainly modern if you look at C, Rust, Go, et al.
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<Bronsa>
clojure has some decent debugging experience now, certainly not at the level of CL restart system + SLIME but not println level
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<loke>
Bronsa: Well. I tend to take all opportunities to attack it, probably more often than necessary.
<schweers>
beach: why do you (and others?) insist on the terminology of a condition being “signalled” instead of being “thrown”? Is there a deeper meaning to the terms than I am seeing?
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<Arathnim>
It took awhile, but other languages are cathing up with CL's SLIME debugging, most notably Python + Jupyter.
<verisimilitude>
Firstly, there's THROW and CATCH, already.
<loke>
schweers: there is, actually. "throw" implies that the stack is unrolled.
<tfb>
schweers: signalling a conditon is different than tranferring control
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<verisimilitude>
Secondly, the function is called SIGNAL.
<ealfonso>
got it: (pointer-address my-ptr)
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<tfb>
schweers: and signal handlers can be called *before* the stack is unwound and decide if they want to unwind it or not
<Bronsa>
loke: if random attacks spawned for no reason w/o any argumentation or justification are your thing, keep at it. Not an attitude I like honestly
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<schweers>
you’ve got a point, raise or throw does imply things that signal does not do. and yes verisimilitude, you’re right about THROW existing
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<schweers>
I sometimes forget how limited “traditional” error handling is :/
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<DemolitionMan>
hi
<loke>
Bronsa: It's not usually my thing. There are a few things that causes an itch... Clojure is one of those. Mainly because it's not terrible. It's actually quite good, but fails in some spectacular ways. That's why it's a much more interesting thing to criticise than something that have absolutely no positive attributes whatsoever (like PHP or Mysql :-) )
<DemolitionMan>
is it possible to have a list of quantities or quantites symbols in antik?
<DemolitionMan>
or simply check a symbol to be a measure unit?
<verisimilitude>
Link to this Antik.
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<DemolitionMan>
?
<verisimilitude>
Is Antik some library?
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<Bronsa>
loke: see, but I don't know what you're talking about when you say it "fails in some spectacular ways" or "a lot of its design choices are outright bad", you've just thrown attacks at it and that's not a productive thing to say (not taking into account that what common lispers perceive as bad design choices simply aren't for what clojure targets). But ok, to each their opinions on languages, I could say the same things you've just said, with CL as a subject ins
<dlowe>
can we take lisp comparison threads to ##lisp please?
<verisimilitude>
Why would that be inappropriate for #lisp?
<dlowe>
it's only tangentally related to common lisp
<verisimilitude>
Right; it's easy to forget that #lisp is about Common Lisp and not Lisp in general.
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<dlowe>
also, consider the chances that something new will be expressed
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<loke>
Bronsa: Oh for sure. There are a few really bad things about CL.
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<beach>
schweers: What other people said. The term means something else, and the mechanisms are very different too, so it gives the wrong impression.
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<schweers>
I never really made this connection between the terms used in different languages, and the mechanisms. But yes, I get it now
<schweers>
At first it seemed to me like a C++ guy asking in a python channel about exceptions being thrown, and the python guys correcting him on his use of terms.
<beach>
Arathnim: Too bad that that's the best they can do.
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<Arathnim>
Yeah, further work would require (and be made much easier by) direct access to the compiler, which is largely unique to lisps.
<beach>
schweers: Terminology is utterly important. And since it is often language specific, it is even more important to use it correctly in the context of a specific language.
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<jmercouris>
Arathnim: Python and jupyter is nowhere near lisp
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<jmercouris>
schweers: I wasn't annoyed because as beach said, indeed there is a difference, and it is important to be precise
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<schweers>
I didn’t get the impression you were annoyed.
<jmercouris>
Indeed, I was not annoyed :D
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<jmercouris>
I'm just saying, if it was the situation you described, I would have been annoyed
<jmercouris>
just how python insists on the term "module" when deep inside, we really know they mean file, 99.99% of the time
<jmercouris>
Common lisp is a multi paradigm language
<schweers>
depends on how you define functional
<beach>
haduken: Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language.
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<haduken>
long ago I tried 'spells' is it still something for beginners?
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<beach>
haduken: Are you planning to learn Common Lisp?
<haduken>
another thing I recall was the awfully outdated snippets which where constantly corrected here.
<haduken>
beach: why not?
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
haduken: Do you already know some other languages?
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<jmercouris>
If so, forget everything you know
<haduken>
nope
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<schweers>
well, not everything
<haduken>
which material and exercises follow?
<beach>
haduken: If Common Lisp is your first language, many people here would recommend "gentle".
<beach>
minion: Please tell haduken about gentle.
<minion>
haduken: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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<beach>
haduken: Before you choose what programming tools to install, you should consult with people here. It is easy to get it wrong.
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<jmercouris>
minion: please tell haduken about portacle
<minion>
haduken: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
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<schweers>
I wonder for how many people (Common) Lisp is their first programming language.
<jackdaniel>
minion: chant
<minion>
MORE IMPORTANT
<jmercouris>
?
<haduken>
wow nice.
<Xach>
schweers: i am curious for how many it is their last
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<schweers>
heh!
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<Bronsa>
schweers: it was for me
<schweers>
Bronsa: your first or last?
<Bronsa>
first
<schweers>
how did it go?
<Bronsa>
fine
<jmercouris>
Only for people who cease learning will it be their last
<jmercouris>
There will always be at the least DSLs to learn
<Bronsa>
I had some minor knowledge of C and PHP at the time
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<schweers>
jmercouris: I also think that some languages have important ideas to teach, even if one never uses them in production
<schweers>
haskell would be such a language, to name but one.
<jmercouris>
schweers: +1, teaching you new ways to think
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<Bronsa>
schweers: but I don't recall having major difficulties learning it, I was reading PCL/ACL/On Lisp/SICP at the time and the union of all those made for a comprehensive learning experience
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<fraya>
I have a superficial knowledge so I ordered 'On Lisp' from Paul Graham.
<Bronsa>
this almost was a decade ago tho and I was 16 so I don't remember much
<schweers>
lucky you
<verisimilitude>
So, no response, Xach?
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<Bronsa>
schweers: re: languages having important ideas even if never used in prod -- I absolutely agree! my instance of this is shen, I'll never ever think of using it in production but it has some very interesting (and crazy) ideas
<Bronsa>
it does and they're quite incremental from what I remember
<beach>
Indeed.
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<verisimilitude>
Can you not do that, DemolitionMan?
<verisimilitude>
They're just Lisp objects.
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<verisimilitude>
It will be good when github dies; then Free Software projects won't be able to prioritize it at the expense of other venues.
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<verisimilitude>
So, are you still having your issues, DemolitionMan?
<haduken>
beach: thanks
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<beach>
haduken: Anytime.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Did something change about the way Quicklisp/ASDF handles symlinks in local-projects?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've been symlinking my projects into ~/quicklisp/local-projects for a while, but recently I been running into situations where ASDF can't find them.
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<jackdaniel>
did you change implementation by chance?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Not really
<jackdaniel>
SBCL/CCL/ECL behave differently wrt directories and symlinks
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'll occasionally upgrade SBCL, etc., but I've used both SBCL and CCL without problems for a long time
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<phoe>
I have a class with slots which have class allocation.
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<phoe>
If I subclass this class, will the new slots be allocated on the subclass instead?
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<pfdietz2>
phone: no
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<pfdietz2>
s/phone/phoe/
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<pyc->
!help
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<pyc>
What Common Lisp compiler should I use that would compile my LISP to machine code and is available on Linux, Windows and Mac?
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<Bike>
ccl or sbcl. and you can just say "lisp".
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<pyc>
Bike: Why do you recommend "lisp" as opposed to "common lisp"?
<Bike>
I meant "lisp" instead of "LISP".
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<Bike>
or "Lisp". just, it's not some 50s initialism
<makomo>
fiddlerwoaroof: if you made the symlink without restarting the lisp image, perhaps you have to use (ql:register-local-projects)?
<dlowe>
though I think perhaps a newcomer shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it compiles to machine code while learning
<Bike>
that page could be out of date. i believe it works perfectly well on mac and freebsd, and pretty well on windows.
<beach>
pyc: On Mac and Windows, you can buy a license for a commercial Common Lisp implementation.
<dlowe>
as long as it produces the correct results
<Bike>
http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html as you can see on sbcl's own webpage, freebsd, windows, and darwin are marked as "Available and supported" (on some architectures)
<makomo>
fiddlerwoaroof: another thing that caused problems for me was that i was violating ASDF's rules (afaik) by not having the system named "foo" in the file named "foo.asd"
<dlowe>
might as well just take the system name out of the form,
<makomo>
not sure if either of these apply to you since you said you've been using sbcl/ccl for a long time, but it doesn't hurt to check i guess
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<ealfonso>
can I have an extendable nx3 array? I'm getting "only vectors can have fill pointers"
<phoe>
ealfonso: extendable? what do you mean?
<ealfonso>
extensible
<phoe>
ealfonso: if you have to, you can always use ADJUST-ARRAY
<Bike>
meaning vector push extend works, i assume
<Bike>
i'm not sure what "nx3" is, though
<ealfonso>
Nx3 where N changes at run time
<jasom>
ealfonso: so what is x3?
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<Younder>
Remember the 'golden rule' if you have more data you usually have a *lot* more data so grow by a factor of 2^x
<jasom>
oh, you mean a 2 dimensional array? No. Fill pointers only apply to vectors
<ealfonso>
jasom I know in advance the inner dimension
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<Bike>
you can use adjust-array to change the size of an array (pass make-array :adjustable t), but vector-push-extend will only work on vectors
<ealfonso>
Bike phoe ok. thanks
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<sjl>
you could have a vector with a fill-pointer displaced to your 2d array
<jasom>
' is a reader macro QUOTE is a special operator
<sjl>
light2yellow: you mean when speaking about it to other humans?
<light2yellow>
yes, I know quote is a special operator. what is ' ?
<Bike>
a reader macro
<jasom>
though built-in reader macros are usually jsut called "syntax"
<light2yellow>
no, when formally defining it
<light2yellow>
a reader macro, yes. thank you Bike
<Bike>
you can do (get-macro-character #\') to get the function involved
<Bike>
takes uh... i always forget what parameters. maybe just a stream
<Younder>
Reader macro's are a part of the extensible syntax of Lisp allowing custom languages like Yacc and Lex
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<Younder>
sory so you dont need languages like Yacc or Lex
<ealfonso>
sjl thanks. I guess I would have to call vector-push-extend 3 times in my case. I can also just pack/unpack multiple small ints into one
<sjl>
ealfonso: you might just want to write a function that takes 3 elements and does 3 aref's
<sjl>
sometimes it's easy to be too clever
<Younder>
Extensible arrays is a hint of bad math
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<ealfonso>
Younder not much to do with math, I'm storing a game move that consists of a 3-tuple, and an arbitrary # of moves can be added
<jasom>
perhaps a vector of structs then?
<sjl>
yeah, I'd do a vector of structs for that
<ealfonso>
jasom yeah, probably
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<ealfonso>
not sure why I was thinking arrays/vectors could only hold ints
<phoe>
ealfonso: holy hell no
<phoe>
they can hold any Lisp data
<phoe>
How can I access a slot's value if the slot is defined with :ALLOCATION :CLASS and I only want to access the class metaobject and not an instance of that class?
<Bike>
class-prototype, i think.
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<Bike>
that's still an instance, but eh
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<phoe>
not a newly made one
<phoe>
Bike: that's what I was looking for, thanks
<light2yellow>
it says "The textual notation 'object is equivalent to (quote object); see Section 3.2.1 (Compiler Terminology).", but I didn't manage to find anything relevant
<light2yellow>
s/now/not/
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<phoe>
in standard syntax, the character #\' names a reader macro.
<phoe>
that reader macro expands to a form containing the quote special operator.
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<jasom>
fiddlerwoaroof: ql:list-local-projects may help debug the issue
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<verisimilitude>
So, I've experienced some issues with xterm I don't believe I'll be able to work around, but which I also don't believe are my problem at this point, with regards to my terminal library. I'll explain.
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<verisimilitude>
Xterm sends mouse events like this: ESCAPE [ M x y z
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<verisimilitude>
Here, x, y, and z are arbitrary bytes, with x denoting the mouse and y and z denoting the mouse position, plus thirty two.
<verisimilitude>
So, clicking the top left corner with the first mouse button sends ESCAPE followed by ``[M !!''.
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<verisimilitude>
In their wisdom, the xterm developers thought a limit below 256x256 was reasonable, but that's not the main issue.
<jasom>
what if the terminal is more than 96x96?
<verisimilitude>
The main issue is that xterm will send invalid UTF-8 sequences.
<verisimilitude>
It simply sends nothing, jasom.
<verisimilitude>
So, a Common Lisp that doesn't understand UTF-8 won't be able to read it properly.
<verisimilitude>
A Common Lisp that does understand UTF-8 will return a different character, since it's an invalid sequence.
<jasom>
verisimilitude: use binary I/O?
<phoe>
^
<jasom>
use binary I/O, strip out escape codes and then decode the UTF-8
<phoe>
don't use a character stream if you send binary data
<verisimilitude>
How am I to do this with, say, *TERMINAL-IO*, jasom?
<jasom>
verisimilitude: on sbcl *terminal-io* is already bivalent IIRC
<phoe>
this stream is a character stream and not an stream of (unsigned-byte 8)s
<jasom>
phoe: you can read-byte on it, because it's bivalent on sbcl
<jasom>
probably not on ccl though
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<verisimilitude>
Exactly.
<verisimilitude>
I don't care if it only works on SBCL.
<phoe>
hm
<verisimilitude>
So, this is why I don't consider it my problem.
<phoe>
in that case you could try using flexi-streams that *should* work
<verisimilitude>
One can already look at X11 and tell it was designed by idiots, but this is a great example of just how stupid they are.
<jasom>
doh! *standard-input* is bivalent, but *terminal-io* is not. You can get the underlying FD from sbcl though and make a new fd stream from it
<verisimilitude>
The ECMA-48 standards sends real control functions for reporting this kind of information, but I suppose they wanted to save a few bytes or spare C from parsing anything, since it would get that wrong.
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<verisimilitude>
I only care about what I can do in ANSI Common Lisp, jasom.
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<phoe>
verisimilitude: then the standard does not give you what you want
<jasom>
verisimilitude: you can't do binary IO to the teriminal in ANSI common lisp. Just like you can't invoke the GC or run an external program
<jasom>
or spawn a thread
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<verisimilitude>
So, it won't get done.
<verisimilitude>
The blame is on the idiots who designed xterm.
<phoe>
>idiots
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<phoe>
surely they haven't thought of everything that everyone would have been doing years after they've designed the protocol, have they
<jasom>
verisimilitude: there is a good chance that this protocol did not come originally from xterm. Many escape codes predate X by at least a decade.
<verisimilitude>
Again, even if I could do this, it still wouldn't work on a terminal larger than 224x224.
<verisimilitude>
It's the X10 mouse protocol, jasom.
<verisimilitude>
Now, the ECMA-48 ACTIVE POSITION REPORT sends the current cursor position, but it encodes this in decimal. So, you may get ESCAPE [ 1 ; 1 R or ESCAPE [ 100 ; 50 R, but this clearly works at any reasonable terminal dimension and technically has no limit.
<foom>
Going around calling everyone idiots is not a productive way to communicate.
<verisimilitude>
Meanwhile, xterm limits itself to 224x224 to save a few bytes and remove the need to parse things.
<verisimilitude>
I'm not calling everyone an idiot, just the idiot who designed this.
<jasom>
It's almost like they were writing this in C where parsing strings is hard, but treating characters like integers is trivial?
<verisimilitude>
It's broken and was designed with no mind to the future.
<verisimilitude>
Exactly, jasom.
<foom>
All day you've been saying this or that was disgusting, disgrace, these people are idiots, etc.
<jasom>
I try to design things with no mind to the future. 99% of the time it won't last so why waste the effort?
<phoe>
verisimilitude: no, it's the idiots behind CL who designed the language in a way that it's impossible to switch streams between binary and character modes. This thing is broken and was designed with no mind to the future. /s
<verisimilitude>
I'll agree that it's inconvenient, phoe.
<phoe>
And I'll disagree that calling them idiots is anyhow justified.
<verisimilitude>
Still, it's nice that Common Lisp isn't tied to ASCII or anything else.
<verisimilitude>
You're free to disagree with me on that, of course.
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<verisimilitude>
Well, I thought that was an interesting little tidbit; I hope some of you also found it interesting.
<jasom>
someone calling people idiots who built something 30 years ago that is still being used today seems a bit arrogant. All engineering decisions are imperfect, so finding an imperfection does not imply the decision maker was an idiot
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<verisimilitude>
I disagree that you can't make a perfect decision in any circumstance.
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<verisimilitude>
People always like to claim that every thing is broken or imperfect, but they get angry if their processor decides to stop adding numbers correctly.
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<foom>
I mean, I'm not sure why you're even complaining about this, when you could just use the other mouse-reporting mode?
<phoe>
verisimilitude: well, good luck with making your own decisions. if you fail, you'll likely get called an idiot by someone like-minded.
<verisimilitude>
The correct way to do this, jasom, would've been to send a control function similar to ACTIVE POSITION REPORT, which wouldn't have any of these issues.
<verisimilitude>
You see, that control function and others were designed by people with some foresight and brains.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, incorrect division is quite acceptable, though
<verisimilitude>
I'm supporting several mouse reporting modes, foom.
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<sukaeto>
<schweers> beach: why do you (and others?) insist on the terminology of a condition being “signalled” instead of being “thrown”? Is there a deeper meaning to the terms than I am seeing?
<sukaeto>
^ since (unless I missed it, in which case, sorry) no one else explicitly pointed it out - because that is the term defined and used in the Common Lisp spec
<jmercouris>
sukaeto: yes, there is a difference
<verisimilitude>
For one, there's already THROW and CATCH, sukaeto.
<sukaeto>
jmercouris, verisimilitude: I was quoting an earlier statement
<phoe>
verisimilitude: this was already answered before
<sukaeto>
I wasn't asking the question myself
<verisimilitude>
Oh, right; my mistake.
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<jmercouris>
sukaeto: your question is ambiguous, what is a "deeper meaning"?
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<MichaelRaskin>
jmercouris: ask the actual author of the question, I guess
<sukaeto>
jmercouris: again, I did not ask the question. I merely quoted schweers (who, it would unfortunately appear, is not in the channel right now) for context since it was asked a while ago in the back buffer
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<jmercouris>
ah, I see now, I misunderstood the message
<jmercouris>
you were literally quoting schweers, not addressing them
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<sukaeto>
well, I meant to address them
<sukaeto>
with the very next thing I said
<jmercouris>
well, it seems like your question is not a question then
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<sukaeto>
I didn't ask a question - I made a statement
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<jmercouris>
did I say something else just now?
<sukaeto>
the entire first thing I "said" was the quote from schweers
<jmercouris>
Yes, I understand
<sukaeto>
the second thing I said was my response to their question
<sukaeto>
oh, I see what you're saying :-)
<Xach>
Who is on first?
<verisimilitude>
Why not you, Xach; you can answer my question.
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<verisimilitude>
I like to think I've been more than patient.
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<verisimilitude>
I just want to know what the issue is so I can correct it.
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<sea>
How do I undo a (defpackage foo ...) ? I want to..un-defpackage it
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<Bike>
there's delete-package
<verisimilitude>
Have you tried DELETE-PACKAGE?
<sea>
It looks like (delete-package :
<sea>
Yeah I was about to type that
<sea>
Okay, seems like there aren't any other side effects to worry about. Thanks
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<Kevslinger>
Xach: What is on second?
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<k-hos>
no whats on first, whos on second
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<catern>
hmm
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<catern>
so many lisps drop the user into a nested-REPL when there is an error, and let the user handle the error and resume computation
<catern>
is there any syntax or usual way to handle, "I want some value but I don't know how to get it, I'll drop to a REPL and the human will return it to me"?
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<catern>
like, I'm essentially looking for syntax for handling "asking a human" for something
<Xach>
catern: I think clim might have some concept for that?
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<Xach>
y-or-n-p is part of CL and is kind of like that.
<catern>
yeah, it's a lot like any prompt presented to the user
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<catern>
but I'm talking presenting the user with a full-on REPL, where they might use data passed to them or inspect the stack or whatever, in their quest to produce the desired value
<haduken>
I love the diagrams in the lisp intro
<haduken>
helps understanding rather than having to imagine erroneous concepts on my own.
<catern>
verisimilitude: you can't call functions from READ
<verisimilitude>
Yes you can.
<verisimilitude>
Look into the #. syntax.
<Xach>
catern: interesting
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<catern>
verisimilitude: is there a name for that syntax?
<verisimilitude>
You can call it the ``octothorpe dot'' syntax.
<verisimilitude>
So, Xach, can I get an answer to my question, now?
<catern>
verisimilitude: oh... sure, but that's rather awkward
<catern>
you'd want an actual REPL
<catern>
so that the user can build up values incremental
<catern>
ly
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<verisimilitude>
I'm not mistaken, Xach is the quicklisp maintainer, right?
<verisimilitude>
Or is Xach and XachX two very different users?
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<ealfonso>
can I have a vector of structs that I can vector-push-extend?
<Xach>
ealfonso: sure
<Xach>
vectors of any object can be vector-push-extended.
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<verisimilitude>
You are the quicklisp maintainer, right, Xach?
<verisimilitude>
Yes, you are.
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<verisimilitude>
So, I'm not mistaken; that's nice.
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<ealfonso>
but how should I initialize the fill-pointer, which must be a fixnum?
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<ealfonso>
ok, I think I got it. I need to specify initial element
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<Bike>
(make-array ... :fill-pointer t) initializes the fill pointer to be the initial length
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<nickername>
Hey there.
<nickername>
Is this a good place to ask about adding to quicklisp, or should I use github?
<p_l>
nickername: well, there's a faq on website, iirc, github issues are AFAIK the actual final submission mechanism, but for stuff not covered there you can probably bug Xach ?
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<nickername>
Thanks p_l.
<nickername>
Is Xach here right now?
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<nickername>
I need to disconnect for just a minute.
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<nickername>
I'm back. :)
<nickername>
How are you guys?
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<cgay>
That was 3-4 minutes. I was getting concerned.
<pierpa>
not much change since a minute ago
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<nickername>
Cool.
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<Xach>
nickername: what's up?
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<nickername>
Not much. I was hoping you could add a project of mine, if that's alright.
<nickername>
Do you want the link?
<Xach>
Please email it
<nickername>
Email isn't too good to me right now. I hate to ask, but can I just put it here?
<Xach>
I prefer github, but email will be ok. IRC is not ok.
<nickername>
Okie dokie.
<nickername>
Can I ask you something else, Xach?
<Xach>
Sure!
<nickername>
Why have you been ignoring my questions, Xach?
<nickername>
I'm verisimilitude.
<nickername>
You seem to have been ignoring me and I don't quite care for that.
<Xach>
Oh, because you harassed me every day while I was thinking about an issue.
<nickername>
Oh, really?
<nickername>
So, you don't want to add my programs, then?
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<Xach>
I don't want to discuss them on IRC with you.
<nickername>
In that case, get ready for some healthy competition.
<Xach>
I'd be happy to discuss via email.
<nickername>
I can't talk to you on email, because you use gmail.
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<Xach>
Ok.
<nickername>
I don't like being forced to use Freenode, but it's the least objectionable option.
<nickername>
Now, you can either add my programs, as I've been asking for months, or I can create a quicklisp competitor.
<nickername>
Which do you want?
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<Xach>
If you email me about it, I'll look at them again, but if you don't want to email and don't want to use github, please do whatever you like.
<nickername>
Why even advertise the IRC channel, then?
<Xach>
I think it would be very challenging to work with a community if you don't want to interact with gmail or github, but life would be boring without challenges.
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<nickername>
Well, let's see how long you stay in beta now, then.
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<Xach>
Ok.
<jasom>
ebrasca: you were asking for examples of when defun (setf ...) doesn't work? I just thought of one; if you e.g. wanted to make a (setf (assoc ...) ...) that might add a new item to the front of the list without modifying the tail, you can't do that in a function (if you are okay modifying the tail then it's no problem because you could just add a cons after the head, and swap the CARs)
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<Bike>
a setf place that takes multiple values is another case.
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<Bike>
(setf assoc) would still be a problem if you want it to be able to add to a nil alist
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<Xach>
For those not in #quicklisp, verisimilitude/nickername is someone who wants to remain anonymous while submitting libraries to quicklisp. I told them I had to think about that a while, and every day, sometimes multiple times per day, they asked for status updates. I didn't want that pressure while thinking about it.
<Xach>
I decided I am ok with it, but I don't really appreciate the way it has been requested.
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<cgay>
You are very patient. I don't think I would have handled it as well.
<jasom>
I'm just happy I live in a different world from verisimilitude; he seems to live in a world with a lot more idiots in it than mine.