<drmeister>
It says when the second argument is t: Returns a documentation string specialized on the class of the argument x itself. For example, if x is a function, the documentation string associated with the function x is returned.
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<Bike>
the second argument of documentation is only not t when the first argument is a name rather than a thing
<Bike>
so you do (documentation 'name 'function) but (documentation #'name t)
<drmeister>
As does Clasp
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<Bike>
in clasp functions don't actually have docstrings, so if you have like (lambda () "docstring" nil) there's no way to get at the string, as it's destroyed during compilation
<drmeister>
Peter Seibel's "manifest" system doesn't work on Clasp - but parts of it - most importantly "toot" does.
<Bike>
which is kind of unfortunate
<drmeister>
They could have docstrings BuiltinClosure_O has a docstring slot.
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<drmeister>
Who destroys it during compilation?
<Bike>
we do. we don't use it. it's ignored
<Bike>
the lambda list too
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<drmeister>
fixable?
<Bike>
sure
<Bike>
just have to save it like the name
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<stylewarning>
Hello
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
hi beach
<beach>
stylewarning: Great videos. Are there more coming? I have seen 2 so far.
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<stylewarning>
beach: only had time for two Lispy ones
<beach>
OK.
<stylewarning>
One about quantum computation will come out too
<stylewarning>
I hope to make more when I make it back to England
<stylewarning>
Some with more code in particular
<beach>
That would be good.
<stylewarning>
Lisp is a fun thing to talk about
<beach>
It is.
<stylewarning>
But it’s hard to be comprehensible :D
<beach>
That too.
<on_ion>
easier in s-exps
<beach>
But a lot has to do with the enthusiasm of the speaker.
<beach>
theemacsshibe[m]: The #clim channel will answer questions about CLIM and McCLIM. I usually hang out there, but I am traveling at the moment. I'll be back online on Wednesday.
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
fancy
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<vtomole>
Hey beach, how is SICL coming along?
<beach>
I don't know. :)
<beach>
Bike is doing most of the work at the moment.
<beach>
I also haven't been hanging out in #clasp while traveling.
<beach>
That's where most of the activity takes place.
<vtomole>
With respect to Cleavir?
<beach>
Yeah.
<beach>
Also, scymtym is working on the reader (called Eclector) which used to be part of SICL, but that is now in a separate repository.
<vtomole>
How many readers does SICL have?
<beach>
It will have zero very soon. Instead it will use Eclector.
<beach>
I am trying to extract "modules" from SICL into separate repositories as much as is reasonable.
<vtomole>
Good idea.
<beach>
Thanks.
<stylewarning>
Then you need to version it all :D
<beach>
What do you mean?
<stylewarning>
Cross-repository compatibility is something that needs to be maintained
<beach>
Oh, sure, yes.
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<vtomole>
As long as it's not split up too much. I think this stays true to SICL's goal of separating a CL implementation into modules. An implementer will clone the sub-components he/she wants.
<beach>
stylewarning: Since the basic specification (i.e. the Common Lisp HyperSpec) is stable, I don't think it will be a big problem.
<beach>
vtomole: It is still non-trivial to use those modules though. For Eclector, either an implementation uses it as a second reader (it has to have a reader in order to read the Eclector source code) or the implementation must cross compile on a different implementation the way SICl does.
<stylewarning>
beach: I guess if you expose CL-compatible symbols that’s good
<beach>
Right. But you are right. Take Eclector again. It has functionality that extends the Common Lisp HyperSpec, and that functionality is essential for client code, in particular source tracking. And it is important not to break client code that uses it.
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<vtomole>
beach: To me, Common Lisp implementations are overwhelming. How is the back-end of SICL going? Are you still planning on compiling to x86_64? How much resources (time) does it take to write a "good" optimizing compiler?
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<beach>
vtomole: The back-end is almost done. I have a separate repository containing an assembler for x86-64.
<beach>
vtomole: So, what's left is bootstrapping.
<beach>
vtomole: Also optimizations both at the HIR and at the MIR level must be improved.
<beach>
vtomole: Hard to say how long it takes. I am not working on it full time, so it is taking longer.
<vtomole>
For sure, a lot of implementors compile their languages to LLVM because they don't want to deal with writing optimizers. But you are not worried about performance being equal to SBCL are you?
<beach>
Oh, that's definitely the goal.
<beach>
I am not afraid of writing optimizers. There are plenty of published algorithms.
<beach>
But they have to be adapted to the specific case of Common Lisp.
<beach>
I don't think it is going to work to rely on LLVM for optimizations.
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<beach>
It doesn't know how to do things like type inference, path replication, escape analysis and other things that are crucial to Common Lisp performance.
<beach>
Things like that have to be done before low-level code is generated.
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<beach>
I'm off to have breakfast. I'll be back in a little while.
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<vtomole>
Sure. Later beach.
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<pjb>
oleo: typing v on the line 0: in the backtrace should jump to the source line, and you should see where the library value comes from. It's probably the variable that's bad, according to the error message.
<pjb>
oleo: IIRC, typing RET on that line should show the frame with the bindings too.
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<beach>
oleo: Do you have the right values for your OPTIMIZE qualities?
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<oleo>
beach: no idea beach, do you think it's related to that ?
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<beach>
No.
<beach>
I just think you need the right values to debug the problem properly.
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<oleo>
and #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 0))) is not good enough ?
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<beach>
Should be.
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<oleo>
err i have no idea
<oleo>
but if i were to speculate, it either is some loop gone wrong, types not fitting or some conversion stuff in between.....
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<oleo>
that's ffi for me
<oleo>
lol
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<on_ion>
oleo: who ..?
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<makomo>
::notify Shinmera please take a look at the PR i've made for 3d-matrices. i think MLOOKAT is incorrect, hopefully i got it right (i've been at it for the whole day ;_;)
<Colleen>
makomo: Got it. I'll let Shinmera know as soon as possible.
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<sjl>
makomo: Shinmera generally hangs out in #shirakumo, not here, so if you want to get ahold of him it's best to try there
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<makomo>
sjl: ah right, i forgot about that
<Colleen>
makomo: Shinmera said 13 minutes, 36 seconds ago: Yeah as I mentioned in the reply, I've been at that for fucking ever before as well. If you really got it right now that's fantastic.
<makomo>
hah!
<oleo>
hehe
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<phoe>
are you really chatting via Colleen now despite you guys being in two different channels
<phoe>
I am getting too old for this
* phoe
goes to take a drink in #lispcafe
<oleo>
::notify phoe what are you drinking ?
<Colleen>
oleo: Got it. I'll let phoe know as soon as possible.
<makomo>
phoe: yeah :D, haha. i thought Colleen wouldn't work cross-channels, but it does
<makomo>
so it's like a VPN of sorts, it groups all the channels Colleen is in
<makomo>
awesome
<oleo>
lol
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<phoe>
it's a bridge
<Colleen>
phoe: oleo said 1 minute, 57 seconds ago: what are you drinking ?
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<mfiano>
Is there a way to reset the reader/printer control variables to the _default_? WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX seems to define it's own standard behavior, going against the defaults. For example, *print-readably* is defined to have an initial value of NIL, whereas WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX uses T
<mfiano>
phoe: I mean for things like *print-readably*, the standard defines it's initial-value to be NIL
<phoe>
oooh, right.
<mfiano>
I want to reset all these initial values
<phoe>
hm. sounds like something worthy of a WITH-DEFAULT-IO-SYNTAX macro.
<phoe>
I could bet $2 that it's already defined in some library.
<mfiano>
Well some of them are undefined and up to impls
<mfiano>
But yeah...I want to ensure the ones with actual defaults, are reset
<phoe>
serapeum seems not to have it.
<phoe>
You could try defining your own macro for that - I can't see it around from a very brief glance.
<phoe>
And perhaps later you can switch to a more "mainstream" version of this.
<mfiano>
Ok. I just spent a while debugging why i could not print CLOS objects, and *print-readably* was bound to T everywhere in a huge project. Turns out, I wrapped another library that calls this one in `with-standard-io-syntax`, in order to ensure things like floats being read correctly...i didn't realize *print-readably* is different than the defaults. I understand why it is though; it's really meant to make
<mfiano>
printing objects to file and reading them again work properly.
<mfiano>
Thanks though
<phoe>
mfiano: what kind of CLOS objects are you printing and how are you printing them?
<phoe>
plain #<FOO 01234>-style?
<mfiano>
Correct.
<mfiano>
I know how I can print them readably, and that phoe-toolboxz has a way
<mfiano>
But I'm speaking generally
<phoe>
for very dumb objects phoe-toolbox's way of printing them will work, yes
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<mfiano>
It seems the only one that differs from the defaults, aside possibly some implementation-specific ones, _is_*print-readably*
<mfiano>
Well you learn something new everyday I suppose.
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<jmercouris>
is there a way to do (loop for item in list collect ...) and have the index of "item"?
<phoe>
jmercouris: (loop for i from 0 for item in list ...)
<jmercouris>
phoe: thanks
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<jmercouris>
I was thinking about having multiple "do" clauses to increment some integer
<jmercouris>
seems I was on the completely wrong track of thinking
<phoe>
jmercouris: you don't want an index of "item"
<phoe>
you want a number that is initially 0 and then increases by 1 on each iteration
<jmercouris>
I realize that's what your soultion is doing yes
<phoe>
that also happens to be the index of "item"
<jmercouris>
I visualized (loop for item in list do .... do incf i)
<jmercouris>
I still barely understand the loop macro