jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<jeosol> aeth: that's handy and can reduce code size further, yeah I see the need.
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<Xach> My broken build server is causing me Irritations
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<loke> Xach: what's wrong with it?
<Xach> loke: had a power outage, now it does not react to power switch. replaced the power supply, still doesn't power on. haven't fully troubleshot.
<Xach> something off-kilter. hope it's not fried in some way.
<loke> Xach: need a new motherboard?
<loke> If so, I'
<loke> I'll be happy to make another Qicklisp donation to cover it
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<skeuomorf> How do I start new common lisp projects? i.e. how to structure projects? FWIW I am going to use SBCL
<Xach> I appreciate the offer, contributions will already more than cover replacement hardware. It's the time suck that is the main hassle.
<Xach> skeuomorf: https://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html is something i wrote a while ago. there are other guides out there.
<skeuomorf> Xach: Will give it a look, thanks!
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<skeuomorf> where are things like using #P for defining file paths documented?
<aeth> good luck searching for # on most other sites
<aeth> And in general, just follow the link to # instead of #p http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
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<skeuomorf> aeth: Cool, thank you
<skeuomorf> Is there anything like Hoogle for CL?
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<skeuomorf> Stupid question
<skeuomorf> didn't notice that l1sp.org had a search field at the top :|
<aeth> There's also http://lispdoc.com/ but it appears to be down right now
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<aeth> And there are probably 3 more I don't know about
<skeuomorf> :) Awesome
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<skeuomorf> Good morning beach
<iqubic> Good morning beach.
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<beach> skeuomorf: What project are you planning to start?
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<skeuomorf> beach: Was gonna do a pseudo-"static site generator" to replace my current setup "Hakyll" but decided to discard the idea for the moment
<jackdaniel> skeuomorf: regarding static site generator there is coleslaw for CL
<beach> I see. Did you decide on something else instead?
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<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: Yeah, I saw that earlier but it doesn't really fit my needs, has a lot of things that I don't need (e.g. colorize, tweeting, gfycats, ..etc) and doesn't have stuff I need (I sometimes write in rst, org-mode, LaTeX)
<skeuomorf> beach: Nope, not yet
<skeuomorf> Maybe I will change my mind tomorrow and go with coleslaw :D
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<jackdaniel> skeuomorf: these unnecessary things are optional
<jackdaniel> McCLIM, ECL and my personal website are all powered by coleslaw
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<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: Yes, I am aware. I meant in regards to the codebase, I haven't looked at it yet though
<jackdaniel> OK
<skeuomorf> Will give it a look tomorrow though
<skeuomorf> Gonna have to stick to markdown but whatevs
<jackdaniel> afair coleslaw is pretty extensible, so if you find rst->html converter adding a plugin should be straightforward
<jackdaniel> I've added cl-who plugin at some point of time because I needed control over tables
<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: Took a glance, code looks cool
<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: nice
<jackdaniel> (cl-who is sexp->html)
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<skeuomorf> The main reason I'm moving away from Hakyll is that it's the embodiment of the Turing Tarpit
<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: Yeah, I've used similar EDSLs in Haskell and more closely to CL in Clojure e.g. Hiccup
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<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: It seems it already has support for rst https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/blob/master/docs/plugin-use.md#restructuredtext
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<jackdaniel> good for you :)
<skeuomorf> yeah :)
<jackdaniel> (just to be clear – I'm not affiliated with the project, I just happen to use this software)
<skeuomorf> Yupe, all good
<skeuomorf> 👍️
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* skeuomorf is off to bed
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<nowhere_man> two times in a row, I managed to corrupt somehow a FASL file in my SBCL, while doing something that nothing to do with it
<nowhere_man> (but it was loaded)
<nowhere_man> the first one, I tried calculating a googolplex
<nowhere_man> killed SBCL, started it again, loaded the system I'm working on, then I get "The variable BULK/CORE::+CORE+ is unbound."
<nowhere_man> The TRY-RECOMPILING restart works perfectly
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<nowhere_man> If I stop SBCL and try again, same thing.
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<nowhere_man> I delete the FASL and recompile, everything works perfectly again.
<xificurC> (let ((x :x)) (trivia::match '(:x :y :z) ((list* ??? rest) rest)))
<xificurC> how can I insert the value of x into the matcher?
<nowhere_man> Second time, I did something with the SLIME REPL, had to kill SBCL, same issue.
<xificurC> couldn't find it in the docs
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<nowhere_man> xificurC: you want your first list to be (list x :y :z) ?
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<xificurC> nowhere_man: which first list? (list x :y :z) == '(:x :y :z) in this case. I'm asking how can I inject a symbol's value into trivia's pattern matcher
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<xificurC> imagine you're trying to rewrite this into trivia::match (let ((x :x) (to-match '(:x :y :z))) (cond ((eq x (car to-match)) (cdr to-match))))
<scymtym> xificurC: not directly afaik, but you can do (let ((x :x)) (optima:match '(:x :y :z) ((list* (optima:guard first (eq first x)) rest) (list :first first :rest rest)))) (which should work in trivia as well)
<jackdaniel> I had problems with trivia not evaluating first match argument (so not being really compatible with optima)
<xificurC> scymtym: I see, thanks. A bit too verbose for my taste
<xificurC> jackdaniel: care to give an example?
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<loli> xificurC: you can use ` syntax in trivia
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<jackdaniel> xificurC: no, I don't remember the exact problem
<xificurC> I looked over the pattern matching libraries on cliki, which is always fun to do after ~2 years. I also really liked cl-unification (except for find-variable-value) and screamer. Is anyone here using any of these? Would love some feedback from first hand experience
<jackdaniel> I remember having optima match expression used in trivia what lead to compilation error
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<loli> (named-readtables:in-readtable :fare-quasiquote)
<loli> (match '(a b c d) (`(a b ,@x) x))
<loli> this should work
<loli> oh nevermind SBCL seems to have aborted on compilation
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<loli> MATCH> (match '(x :y :z) (`(x :y ,@z) z))
<loli> (:Z)
<loli> this is using trivia
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<xificurC> loli: ok, now rewrite this to trivia::match (let ((x :x) (to-match '(:x :y :z))) (cond ((eq x (car to-match)) (cdr to-match))))
<xificurC> i.e. use x to match :x
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<loli> I'm not sure that ` allows that
<loli> but this works as your cond
<loli> (let ((x :x)) (match (list :x :y :z) ((guard (list* a y) (eq x a)) y)))
<loli> let me play with it some more
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<scymtym> xificurC: optima has a shortcut for the guard thing: (let ((x :x)) (optima:match '(:x :y :z) ((list* (eq x) rest) (list :rest rest))))
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<loli> that reminds me of rackets pattern matcher
<loli> yeah that works in trivia as well
<loli> (let ((x :x)) (match (list :x :y :z) ((list* (eq x) y) y)))
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<xificurC> that's missing from the wiki then I guess. Is only eq allowed? Or any function?
<loli> should be any 1 argument function
<loli> (let ((x :x)) (match '(:x :y :z) (`(,(equal x) ,@y) y)))
<loli> works
<xificurC> 2 argument you mean
<loli> well no
<loli> something that takes 1 argument
<loli> since
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<loli> (let ((x :x)) (match '(:x :y :z) (`(,(even) ,@y) y)))
<loli> is also valid if x is a number
<loli> that's quite odd
<loli> notice how I wrote even instead of evenp
<loli> in the macro expansion that gets changed to evenp
<xificurC> magic
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<loli> I would suggest consulting the wiki, as it has information on special-patterns and what not
<loli> also I would recommend looking into let-match if you only have 1 form inside of a match
<xificurC> common-lisp.net down
<loli> not those docs
<xificurC> loli: I know, I was looking at cl-unification on common-lisp.net
<loli> also
<loli> (let-match* ((x :x)
<loli> ((list* (eq x) y) '(:x :y :z)))
<loli> y)
<xificurC> I havent' found this (eq x) trick in the wiki, have you?
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<loli> no I have not
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<loli> it seems forms like equal are implemented with defpattern, and they are a macro ontop of guard
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<loli> with defpattern, it seems pretty easy to implement rackets ?, thus giving you any predicate
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<loli> xificurC:satisfies is what you want "(list* (satisfies (lambda (y) (equalp x y))) y)"
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<contrapunctus> o/
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<dim> hi
<dim> with sbcl 1.4.7 and asdf 3.3.2 under debian I get The symbol "*SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCH-FUNCTIONS*" is not external in the ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM package.
<dim> any ideas?
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<shrdlu68> clear
* shrdlu68 oops
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<shka> hello
<shka> what binary serialization package you would recommend guys?
<shka> cl-store requires to much RAM when serializing large objects
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<dlowe> can it write its serialization directly to a stream?
<dlowe> Serializing large objects seems like something that would require a lot of memory if you stored the serialization.
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<xificurC> anyone has hands-on experience with cl-unification and screamer?
<shka> dlowe: i am doing it, but cl-store requires large ammount of memory anyway
<shka> shrdlu68: not helpful
<shka> i have around 40 gigabyte to store
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<shka> i will not try each one of those because it would take to much time
<shrdlu68> shka: Sorry, not sure exactly what you need. Also haven't used any of those libs myself.
<shka> in that case, please abstain from posting this oblivious link
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<shrdlu68> Well, some of those mention that they serialize to streams, so they might not require as much memory.
<shka> shrdlu68: for instance, cl-store, but in pratice it is not ideal
<shrdlu68> What kind of data are you serializing?
<shka> vector of vectors
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<schweers> I have a quesion regarding macros, environments and expansion. I’d like to gather pieces of code from various places and splice them together in another place, which happens later. I’m thinking of having a macro (lets call it on-way), which accepts code and stores it somehow. In addition, I’d need another macro, which takes this stored code and generates new code from it. I was thinking of storing not just the c
<schweers> environment, so I could macroexpand while piecing things together. So far I’m not sure if I misunderstood something completely. The question which really bugs me though is: what about closures? What if the code I’m storing away refers to some lexical variable which will be long gone by the time the final code is assembled?
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<scymtym_> shka: if your data has no circularities, maybe binding CL-STORE:*CHECK-FOR-CIRCS* to NIL could help
<shka> schweers: you can't
<shka> scymtym_: aaah! thanks!
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<schweers> so if I want that, I’ll have to create lambdas and insert calls to them?
<jdz> schweers: You can have your storing macros expand into code that store lambdas.
<shka> or just use methods
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<schweers> sorry, methods?
<shka> that's what i do for extendable macros
<shka> sure, why not?
<shka> (defmethod funny-method ((symbol (eql 'something)) ...)
<jdz> schweers: It seems you're mixing compilation and runtime environments.
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<beach> schweers: I for one have absolutely no idea what the purpose of your code gathering would be, nor of the use case you are thinking of.
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<beach> schweers: So you don't control where your code gathering takes place? Otherwise, just don't gather code that refers to lexical variables in parent functions.
<schweers> jdz: not exactly mixing, but I know that my understanding is yet a little unclear. Hence my question. I already suspected that I could not have the code I collect refer to lexical variables
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<schweers> sorry, I should expand a little: I want to walk an OSM (openstreetmap) file, and would like to register handlers for when a node, a way, or a relation object is encountered. I already do this with functions, and it works. But, as a thought experiment, I wanted to know if I could gather the code at compile-time and paste it together to have one big blob of code in the end.
<schweers> is seems that this would not work. So I have already learned something from the answers given here
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<shka> schweers: don't use macro for that
<schweers> ignoring the issue of refering to the lexical environment: is it at all considered sane to gather code from various places (together with the &environment) and splice them together somewhere else?
<shka> in concept, yes
<shka> but implementation needs to be conservative
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<beach> schweers: Not really. In Cleavir, we convert the code to ASTs (which no longer refers to the environment), and those ASTs are more easily combined.
<schweers> I think do+ does this on a smaller scale
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<schweers> which is where I got the idea
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<shka> schweers: i don't think it really do that
<schweers> beach: how do you convert the code?
<schweers> then maybe I misunderstood the code
<schweers> beach: I guess its more than just calling macroexpand, right?
<shka> schweers: take a look at the metabang-bind source code to see reasonable way to handle this kind of stuff
<schweers> shka: thanks for the hint, I will
<beach> schweers: By interrogating the environment to see what the code means, and as a result, creating the AST that the code stands for. Macros and compiler macros are expanded so that no such expansion is required by further processing.
<schweers> that’s not something that I can do with standard common lisp tools, right?
<beach> Right.
<schweers> thanks for all the answers, you really helped me.
<shka> it is not really required, unless you are implementing compiler
<shka> anyway, don't try to generate huge ammounts of code by scanning open street map
<shka> it does not sound like reasonable approach
<beach> shka: It is, though. If different code snippets are in different environment, you can't gather them without first removing the environment information.
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<shka> beach: yeah, but why you would want to gather code snippets from different envs if you are not trying to build something that is basicly a compiler?
<schweers> shka: the amount of code would not depend on the size of the openstreetmap input. I just want to gather the pieces of code on what to do with a node (for instance). But, the more I think about it, the less feasable it seems, for various reasons
<beach> Don't ask me. Like I said, I don't understand the use case.
<shka> beach: right
<beach> shka: Clearly if code can refer to lexical variables in a parent, then the environment will be different for that code.
<shka> schweers: all you need is to pass list of operations applicables when scanning graph
<shka> and operations, well, you can use just functions
<shka> no need to get fancy
<schweers> that is what I am doing at the time
<shka> it works, yes?
<schweers> I know there is no /need/. I just wanted to know if it could be done, and what it would take.
<schweers> you know, curiosity
<shka> right
<shka> well, it can be done, technically
<schweers> And yes, it works perfectly fine.
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<shka> but that would be close to the compiler for open stree map
<shka> which sounds weird if you think about it
<schweers> indeed
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<schweers> so again, thanks alot for all your answers. you’ve helped me understand some things a little better.
<shka> glad i could help somehow
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<steven___> i have a question about commonqt, this is mycode (:qt-superclass "QGraphicsEllipseItem"), but it running with error, how can i resolve it
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<steven___> Is someone using commonqt here?
<Xach> steven___: I don't think many here use it, but there are a few from time to time
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<scymtym_> Xach: i have fixed versions of cxml and xpath (bug fixes, fewer warnings) which i would like to push into sharplispers repositories. any objections or suggestions?
<steven___> thank you very much, i think i shoul look for it in stackoverflow
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<beach> ecraven: I am reading the OpenType specification from Microsoft, and I see what you mean by the complexity being intrinsic.
<beach> It would be a great project to implement the different modules (APIs) in Common Lisp, though. I suspect it could be done incrementally.
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<asarch> Isn't CLisp *SO* beautiful?: (defun こんにちは() (format t "Good afternoon!")) (こんにちは)
<beach> asarch: I would think that implementations other than CLISP would be able to do that.
<beach> asarch: What is your reason for using CLISP, by the way?
<shka> sbcl
<shka> (-> A (τ (m n) (n m)))
<shka> petalisp :/
<Bronsa> I mean, even java can do unicode names
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<beach> asarch: Oh, perhaps you mean Common Lisp? Then please do not use the abbreviation "Clisp", since it is the name of an implementation of Common Lisp. If you have to abbreviate Common Lisp, then use "CL".
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<asarch> Hi beach, nice to see you again. The main reason is actually to replace my TCSH scripts with some OOP-capable programming language and to learn how AI works :-)
<asarch> Sorry for "CLisp"
<schweers> lisp really does still seem to have this association with AI for many people
<beach> asarch: Sure. Then you should know that using those characters is not portable. They may not be part of the character set of every implementation.
<asarch> Watashi wa nihongo o manande imasu
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<asarch> I just was testing if I could use other characters than the Latin alphabet to name functions
<beach> asarch: You can in certain implementations.
<beach> asarch: But not in all.
<asarch> Py2 actually can't (although Py3 is fine)
<beach> asarch: Which is why I thought you specifically referred to CLISP.
<asarch> Sorry, sorry. My mistake
* asarch feels miserable... :'-(
<shka> you should! :P
<Bike> most implementations have unicode support tho.
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<schweers> asarch: out of curiosity, what language was that?
<shka> using anything other then ascii for function name is bad idea
<beach> schweers: Japanese.
<schweers> shka: I think it’s a bad idea to use non-ascii outside of a comment or docstring
<schweers> s/docstring/string/
<schweers> and maybe even there
<Bike> it's the glorious future, i don't want to be stuck with what a bunch of cold war engineers thought language was
<shka> for any symbol, really
<shka> Bike: future was canceled
<schweers> shka: when? the moment that the industry decided that lisp was of the devil? :-P
<shka> we have capitalist realism for now and forever
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<shka> schweers: hard to tell, but we are stuck with pre-80s technology and primitive economic model to back it
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<dim> Unicode for function and variable names is debatable, because in many cases there is more than one possible binary encoding for the same visual output, even without mentionning invisible space
<shka> and majority consensus seems to be that it is fine
<dim> ​
<dim> Unicode Character 'ZERO WIDTH SPACE' (U+200B)
<dim> always fun to use in function identifiers, right? ;-)
<shka> dim: that is the evilist thing i can imagine
<schweers> lol
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<dim> well when you have unicode support for symbol names, you have to deal with that, I suppose
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<dim> then of course there are the multiple ways to write é, and that's a very simple one
<schweers> maybe I need to configure emacs in a way that any non ascii is highlighted, just in case
<francogrex> Hi I have this, I put a break, optimize debug 3 yet no way to single step into the internal code... https://pastebin.com/EFLzz0be
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<schweers> francogrex: what implementation are you using?
<francogrex> using sbcl, clisp, both stepper remains in the
<TCZ> omg why they banned me on lisp-pl
<francogrex> very outer loo
<francogrex> loop
<TCZ> i did nothing wrong
<TCZ> i think it was this evil jackdaniel
<shka> TCZ: i can't tell, i put you into ignore list way back
<TCZ> : |
<shka> francogrex: why such a long form?
<oleo> francogrex: not only optimize make sure the others are 0 too
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<schweers> francogrex: Are you sure the breakpoint is reached?
<oleo> francogrex: s/optimize/debug/
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<francogrex> yes, but even without break, just single stepping
<oleo> sbcl ? where ?
<francogrex> oleo the debug level is 3
<francogrex> regardless of whether the code is crappy that's not the point
<asarch> schweers, Japanese :-)
<francogrex> i expect a stepper to take me through the whole lot
<oleo> ja
<oleo> some steppers are broke out there
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<francogrex> completely inefficient, it's sad
<schweers> sbcl should work fine
<francogrex> sbcl doesn't work fine at all
<schweers> francogrex: have you set speed and space optimizations?
<schweers> if you set all three to 3, you may not be able to single step
<oleo> those are interdependent
<oleo> so when you say you want to have the most verbose debug level then you set it to 3 and the others to 0 in order to get that
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<oleo> otherwise stuff is not guaranteed
<oleo> and if it then still denies you single stepping you may ask over in
<oleo> #sbcl
<francogrex> ok, lmaybe it's that. no i have only set debug to 3
<francogrex> let's try what you suggest
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<oleo> it's the same vice versa for speed
<schweers> remember to recompile after changing those
<oleo> if you want as fast as possible speed then you have todo that on the expense of safety and debug and space
<schweers> how do you set these qualities?
<oleo> make it a read-time form
<schweers> yeah, safety of 0 sure is fun :/
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<schweers> oleo: what should he make a read time form?
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<oleo> #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 0))
<schweers> um … am I missing something? why at read time?
<oleo> cause read-time is the firs thing the reader does
<schweers> is this a widespread idiom?
<oleo> not only that it's required sometimes even
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<schweers> huh. I didn’t know that
<oleo> depending on your sofistication level of your code....
<oleo> when you input a form to your interpreter/compiler the reader is ineffect
<oleo> and it does slurp all at once not piece by piece
<oleo> so not like (defun blah -> ( then defun then blah....
<schweers> I know, I just never thought that optimizations should be set at that stage. This thought simply never crossed my mind.
<oleo> a declaration is a hint to the compiler
<oleo> that's why
<oleo> so it might not take effect
<oleo> not immediately at least
<schweers> exactly, the compiler, not the reader. But then again, one can compile at read time
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<oleo> yes
<francogrex> no unfortunately nothing works, even with optimization codes, can't go beyond the first few lines of the loop
<oleo> that's where i end of thinking further cause i don't have experinece much with that level
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<oleo> ok then ask in #sbcl really
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<oleo> maybe you have to switch to interpreter mode
<oleo> i have no idea really
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<francogrex> oleo, no sbcl is by default compiler mode
<francogrex> but good news
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<oleo> yah i know
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<francogrex> with optimization it's much better in clisp (the same optim line u sent me)
<francogrex> i can step into the inner parts of the code - if it can be said like that
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<oleo> ya i believe you
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<francogrex> ok thanks. have a good day. bye
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<contrapunctus> Has anyone tried making Android apps using EQL5-Android?
<contrapunctus> I'm curious about development and deployment experiences.
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<makomo> contrapunctus: not me, but there's also this project/product which seems interesting https://wukix.com/mocl
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<jackdaniel> mocl is not conforming common lisp (but they work towards this goal)
<jackdaniel> eql5-android worked fine for me when I was playing with it, there are quite a few examples in the source tree
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<jackdaniel> lispworks works on android from commercial implementations
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<warweasle> I think dto got ecl to work on android.
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<jackdaniel> ecl works fine on android, eql5 is based on ecl and on qt5
<jackdaniel> there is eql5 repl application in google play afaik
<jackdaniel> so you can dig into it right away (it is swank-enabled)
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<jackdaniel> dto's games worked with sdl on the other hand. there is ecl's performance bottleneck with clos dispatch we plan to address *after* the upcoming release
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<jackdaniel> (we plan to follow clasp and implement beach's fast dispatch method)
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<contrapunctus> makomo: MOCL has been around for a while now, I think :)
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<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: Do you have any idea whether I can have a post as an HTML file that will be rendered as-is? Using coleslaw I mean
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<jackdaniel> skeuomorf: maybe `format: html' ?
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<skeuomorf> I think this will apply the templates though, not sure yet
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<jackdaniel> I don't know/remember either
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<jackdaniel> tias (try it and see)
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<skeuomorf> yupe
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<skeuomorf> thanks
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<papachan> hello
<papachan> when i write (asdf:asdf-version) inside sbcl repl it give me 3.3.1
<papachan> but i just build the latest version which is 3.3.2
<papachan> i also rmeoved all ~/quicklisp/cache/ files
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<Xach> papachan: you built asdf?
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<oleo> papachan: put the asdf source into /common-lisp/source build there and then try (require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :asdf)
<oleo> papachan: sorry i meant into ~/common-lisp/source
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<papachan> Xach: yeah i built asdf from source
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<oleo> oh man
<papachan> ?
<oleo> i had tried previously the output-translations example from asdf manual
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<oleo> with the mapping to subdirs
<oleo> and all my stuff landed in subdirs whereever i have system/package directories
<oleo> lol
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<oleo> had to find them all via find . type d -name sbcl-1.4.7-x64 -exec rm -rf {} \; and delete
<oleo> anyway now it's all clean
<oleo> and i have the right mapping
<oleo> bah
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<oleo> asdf expert over night is hard.....
<oleo> hahahaaha
<oleo> :)
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<skeuomorf> Wooh, finally ported my template to Coleslaw
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<skeuomorf> Shoo, coleslaw doesn't support relative paths :|
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<skeuomorf> jackdaniel: do you happen to use the gh-pages plugin?
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