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<emaczen>
I think I failed to build SBCL from source correctly, how should I retry?
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<emaczen>
I think it failed because it keeps failing to load quicklisp
<Bike>
fails how
<emaczen>
I cross compiled with CCL, and it completed and then I ran the install.sh script
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<emaczen>
Then I started SBCL and I get a TYPE-ERROR "QL-UTIL" is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL) in quicklisp/setup.lisp
<Bike>
huh. no idea what that could be about
<Bike>
but if you built sbcl wrong that usually manifests as more like, lacking an extension, or just outrifhg failure
<Bike>
not... getting something that only kind of works
<emaczen>
I ran make.sh with the flags to remove immobile-code if that is relevant
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<emaczen>
should I uninstall? or how do I uninstall?
<emaczen>
Do I just run make.sh again?
<jfrancis>
In case anyone is still around from when I asked this morning about how to strip the Unicode Byte-Order-Mark from the beginning of an otherwise-clean 8-bit ASCII file, the suggestion of flexi-streams worked wonderfully. And is even portable. Thank you.
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<emaczen>
why does SBCL keep failing to load quicklisp.lisp? I get the error: QL-UTIL is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)?
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<rumbler31>
what happens if you load sbcl with no init file
<rumbler31>
although I feel like i've heard this one before
<emaczen>
nothing changes
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<emaczen>
you run sbcl --no-init right?
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<emaczen>
Ok, I just commented out my .sbclrc and SBCL will start, but then I just tried starting it in emacs, and it is telling me "The value SWANK/BACKEND is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)"
<Bike>
there a backtrace or anything
<emaczen>
no
<emaczen>
I'm going to try rebuilding from source, but removing the immobile-code flags
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<mrcom>
Are there any freenode archives (in particular, #lisp) which allow search over an entire year's IRC?
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<mrcom>
Xach: , or anyone, any thoughts on updates to "Go-to libraries"? (Zach's 2015-04-06 blog post)
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<rumbler31>
emaczen: I swear i've heard this before and it is some mundane thing
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<rumbler31>
oh. can you load sbcl without init, then manually load and start swank, then use slime-connect manually?
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<emaczen>
rumbler31: Nothing is working...
<emaczen>
There is no QL-UTIL symbol in quicklisp/setup.lisp either...
<emaczen>
Is there any way to uninstall SBCL? It would be nice if I could just start over
<Bike>
rm everything
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<emaczen>
Bike: where?
<emaczen>
I know SBCL is at /usr/local/bin/sbcl
<Bike>
where it installed to, assume you installed
<rumbler31>
did you use apt to install sbcl or slime? if so, uninstall all that
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<emaczen>
I built from source...
<emaczen>
I'm trying to remove immobile-code
<rumbler31>
after you do that, start with an empty sbclrc, and follow the quicklisp setup steps
<emaczen>
Can you add flags with hoembrew (I'm running OS X)
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<emaczen>
Now, SBCL is telling me that it doensn't know how to require BSD-SOCKETS?
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<rumbler31>
what do you need homebrew for at the moment?
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<emaczen>
rumbler31: When I install stuff from homebrew it just seems to work, and this problem got started since I tried to build SBCL from source myself
<rumbler31>
do you install lisp stuff from homebrew?
<rumbler31>
in order to bootstrap the sbcl compile I assume?
<emaczen>
on_ion: Yes, what I just followed similar advice using those immobile-code flags when you build SBCL from source with "sh make.sh"
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<rumbler31>
i would disable the sbcl homebrew package and get a recent binary instead
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<emaczen>
rumbler31: Ok I did that, but I still have the same issue now
<emaczen>
How do I uninstall everything that I built from source? This is no uninstall script.
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<rumbler31>
if you didn't place the installation andywere, just blow away the folders you're compiling in
<rumbler31>
also, look for fasl casche files
<emaczen>
where?
<rumbler31>
find / -type f -iname "*.fasl" or whatever the file ending sbcl fasls are
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<rumbler31>
i don't know if that is pertinent to the compilation of sbcl itself
<rumbler31>
but its the only other thing I can think of about "persistent files" that might need to be cleaned up
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<on_ion>
emaczen: hmm, is it full build? i just built from git yesterday with --fancy and worked great (debian)
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<emaczen>
on_ion: I downloaded a tar archive from sourceforge
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<on_ion>
hmm
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<emaczen>
on_ion: I finally got a restart, but now I'm back to an SBCL with immobile-code!
<on_ion>
i wish i could help
<rumbler31>
so you have a most recent build
<emaczen>
1.4.7
<rumbler31>
how recent is that
<on_ion>
current
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<emaczen>
What versionare you using? I think it is the latest stable build? It was what was linked on sbcl.org
<emaczen>
according to sbcl.org April 29th
<rumbler31>
me? none, I usually use ccl
<rumbler31>
use that version you just made, to compile a source tree that includes your patch, or the removal of immoblie-code
<emaczen>
rumbler31: I mostly use SBCL and CCL, but I don't know how to get CCL fast enough for some programs I write that need speed
<emaczen>
rumbler31: Yep, I'm trying sh make.sh --without-immobile-code etc...
<rumbler31>
so are you also specifically passing in the lisp to use for compilation? I think you need to specify that to make.sh as well
<emaczen>
I'm using the SBCL I just got to work
<emaczen>
I was using CCL earlier and did have to specify
<rumbler31>
if you don't specify I think it uses whatever sbcl is in the path, if that isn't he one you just made then you might run into trouble
<rumbler31>
like... it would use the one you installed with homebrew
<rumbler31>
unless you're using the same source tree
<rumbler31>
but even then I don't know if make.sh knows to use the sbcl binary that you just built, it probably still looks in the path
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<emaczen>
I'm going to try removing all SBCL stuff I can find, and then building with CCL
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<emaczen>
fail...
<emaczen>
I'll try again in a little bit...
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<ludston>
Are there any good books out there for best practices for optimising for sbcl?
<ludston>
Ignoring the obvious answer, "just profile it and make it faster"
<Bike>
declare types, compile with high speed so it gives you a million optimization notes
<emaczen>
Is there anything special I need to know for installing SBCL from source with OSX?
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<Bike>
don't think so
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<emaczen>
shouldn't this be as simple as just evaluating: sh make.sh "path-to-ccl" --without-immobile-space --without-immobile-code --without-compact-instance-header?
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<Bike>
sounds about right.
<emaczen>
I'm trying that without the flags to see if I can even build SBCL correctly from source...
<Bike>
esthlos: the push only affects the local variable, x
<Bike>
the function "e" is only passed the value of *global*, and doesn't know anything about that variable itself, per the basic evaluation rules
<esthlos>
aha, x is a lexical binding, I see
<esthlos>
thanks
<Bike>
no prob
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<pierpal>
wouldn't work even if x was special. that's not the point
<ludston>
^ Thanks Bike
<esthlos>
x is lexical in the scope of the environment pointed to by the procedure; that's what I mean
<Bike>
well the lexical part isn't important. the fact is that there is a binding, and that's what push alters.
<pierpal>
that's not the explanation why it does not work
<ludston>
It's altering the value of the variable x, and not the value of *global*
<esthlos>
good to know
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<emaczen>
So I can build SBCL fine from source, It just fails with that strange QL-UTIL type error when I add the immobile-code flags
<ludston>
This is probably not how it actually works, but I always think of it as, (defmacro push (x y) `(setf ,y (cons ,x ,y)))
<Bike>
no, other than some boring details that's push
<on_ion>
emaczen: what are you actually doing? =)
<emaczen>
Just trying to build SBCL with immobile-pages since I keep getting an error that says no more immobile pages.
<emaczen>
maybe I should just download an older version of SBCL...
<emaczen>
How good is CMUCL?
<on_ion>
if you got sbcl compiled new, just try what you were doing again ?
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<on_ion>
maybe you dont need to worry about immobile page[s] if that is not the source/root/cause of the problem
<on_ion>
though, so you know, this is my first time hearing about "immobile pages" =)
<esthlos>
what I still don't fully understand, which is embarassing at this point, is that if we replace *global* with, say, an instance of a CLOS object (with appropriate push method, etc.), then *global* is mutated
<Bike>
(push x y) alters a variable binding. (push x (slot-value ...)) modifies an object. they are pretty distinct things to do.
<emaczen>
on_ion: Some others here linked me to some mailing lists where people got the same error I did, and emailed SBCL devs
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<ludston>
It's like this: *global* has a memory dress, and x in (let ((x '()))) has a memory address
<emaczen>
The devs said that if your program uses a lot of symbols, then immobile pages can be exhausted
<emaczen>
I am using a lot of symbols
<ludston>
(push 5 x) modifies x, and (push 5 *global*) modifies global
<ludston>
Because they are different adresses
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<ludston>
The fact that x, and *global*'s memory addesses happen to have the same value at first is just a coincidence, since you passed the value of *global* into the address of x
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<Bike>
i don't think adding a concept of "addresses" is really going to make it clearer...
<ludston>
Doesn't it? Maybe I am spending too much time with low-level languages
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<ludston>
What are you using so many symbols for emaczen?
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<esthlos>
ok, I will think those explanations over
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<ludston>
Good afternoon
<emaczen>
Bike: Nope, I get the QL-UTIL type error again
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<on_ion>
what is a lot of symbols? can they be interned selectively ?
<emaczen>
What do you mean by selectively?
<on_ion>
or established in some other way, such as using symbol plist ?
<on_ion>
emaczen: just the ones you need. by selection.
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<emaczen>
on_ion: I could probably use strings instead, would that be recommended?
<on_ion>
well. it is starting to feel like a different approach could be considered if you are maxing out some runtime limits
<emaczen>
Wow, I finally got rid of that QL-UTIL error
<emaczen>
I had to track down a bunch of fasl directories and delete them
<emaczen>
Although, I did try deleting /.cache/common-lisp previously
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<emaczen>
on_ion: I'm probably going to re-write my main code at some point using structs and defuns but until then, I'm just going to do what I go to do!
<on_ion>
okay, sounds good =)
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<ludston>
emaczen: As a test, I interned an entire english dictionary into sbcl and it worked fine. You must have a LOT of symbols.
<emaczen>
ludston: Yep! I've done that too
<on_ion>
hah
<emaczen>
I probably need to learn more about efficiency and trade some for style/convenience
<emaczen>
but until then..
<emaczen>
ha
<beizhia>
hope I'm not interrupting, but could someone give me a sanity check on this hello-world I'm trying to do?
<ludston>
Looks like its using a casual 1.3Gb of ram to do it. I'd stick with strings.
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<beizhia>
I'm not able to require my asdf system, but its the same config I have for another project and that one works fine
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<beizhia>
is it ok to post links here? Just a gist of about 30 lines
<beizhia>
I've got basically the same config for another project, and I'm able to build an executable with asdf:make, but I can't even (require :hello-world) for some reason
<ludston>
beizhia: How does sbcl know where to load hello.asd from?
<beizhia>
I have a symlink to my code in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/hello-world/
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<beach>
beizhia: You need to have the same name of the file and the system.
<beach>
beizhia: ASDF does not search all your available .asd files for a system with the right name. It turns the system name into a file name and looks for that file name.
<on_ion>
i have been having troubles with SDL and the REPL, SDL wants to take over the world and be its own exclusive thing, and i just want to lisp
<beach>
Yes, more often than not, using foreign code creates problems rather than solving them.
<on_ion>
yea.. and its driving me bonkers. just decided today to stuff everything ugly into C because i need lisp
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<on_ion>
well just a few functions basically, init, shutdown, print, update
<on_ion>
SDL has its own thread stuff and whatnot, ive seen countless ways of dealing with it in CL, amongst the various SDL1/2 bindings for CL, and i'm accustomed to doing SDL/opengl by hand and C anyhow. it feels really good also, which is the most important to me
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<on_ion>
all problems solved in one hours time =)
<on_ion>
hours'*/hour's*
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<nowhere_man>
Hi all
<nowhere_man>
I think I'm understanding shadowing wrong
<nowhere_man>
I'm writing a package where I define a function EVAL
<nowhere_man>
So I do (uiop:define-package :foo (:shadow #:eval) (:use :cl))
<nowhere_man>
But still, when I do my (defun eval () ...), I get the error about SBCL's package lock on CL
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<Bike>
are you actually in the foo package?
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<nowhere_man>
Haha, funny thing, I am in my code, but wasn't in my small test code
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<puchacz>
hi, when starting a new thread, what happens to special variables (I think it is the correct term) in the new thread please?
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<puchacz>
by special variables I mean declaring something first in source code with (defparameter *foo* nil) and then binding them dynamically with (let ((*foo* :new-value)) .... (bt:make-thread (lambda ())))
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<puchacz>
so 2 questions really, (1) am I using the term "special variables" correctly and (2) what will new thread see and is it guaranteed or implementation specific?
<puchacz>
the docs mentions *default-special-bindings*
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<puchacz>
Bike - "Local bindings are local to the thread they are introduced in," - does it mean that if I want to "copy" a special variable, I need to create a local variable with let first (i.e. normal lexical scope, not rebinding global variable) and then use these variable values in new thread to rebind global variable in the new thread?
<Bike>
you could do that, but default-special-bindings is there too.
<jackdaniel>
but you may also mean `dynamic binding' (as an excuse, that was not 100% wrong)
<jackdaniel>
s/that was/that I was/
<puchacz>
well, I am trying to use standard vocabulary to be understood
<jackdaniel>
understandable
<puchacz>
the key thing for me that "special" really refers to the sequence of defparameter/defvar and let rebinding
<puchacz>
which shadows global value with dynamically scoped value from "let"
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<Bike>
you can do dynamic bindings without there being a global
<puchacz>
Bike: there is a property or something stored under the symbol naming the variable, isn't it?
<Bike>
the symbol-value, yes.
<Bike>
but i mean, you don't need to use defparameter or defvar.
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<Bike>
also you shouldn't think of the symbol-value as being an intrinsic part of the symbol. you're worried about threads, well, generally each thread has its own storage of symbol values
<puchacz>
Bike: declare special something? I think I have seen it but
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<Bike>
yes.
<Bike>
it's pretty rare.
<puchacz>
can you remind me pls?
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<aeth>
Bike: What about functions? If I recompile a function in one thread it eventually shows up on the other in its redefined state when the part of that loop comes around. It might not be immediate though, I'm not sure.
<Bike>
it's symbol. if you (declare (special whatever)) in a scope, whatever will be a special variable in that scope.
<puchacz>
ok, tks
<Bike>
aeth: there are no dynamic function bindings, obviously.
<aeth>
Yes, but how do function globals differ from dynamic globals?
<Bike>
there are no dynamic bindings, so there's no need for thread local bindings
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<puchacz>
sometimes I feel Lisp is too complex, but then I remind myself that other languages usually leave these problems as "gray areas" :-)
<puchacz>
or make things very simple by disallowing things
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<aeth>
Or are one implementation.
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<aeth>
What languages have healthy multi-implementation communities? C and C++ and JavaScript immediately come to mind.
<aeth>
Languages like Python have multiple implementations but there's one true implementation above the rest.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Lua? They have a split which side is One True Implementation…
<aeth>
Schemes might as well all be one-implementation languages. Lua is an interesting case in that LuaJIT might have replaced the one true implementation in most places because of performance.
<aeth>
Java afaik has several implementations, but Oracle would like that to stop.
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<aeth>
SQL might be like Scheme, I don't know enough about it. And I think that's literally it, unless including old languages with competing commercial implementations (Fortran, COBOL, Pascal, etc.)
<aeth>
(I think each of those only has one major FOSS implementation)
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<MichaelRaskin>
Pascal: gpc/fpc, and no one uses gpc, right?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Haskell
<aeth>
I thought ghc was the one true Haskell implementation?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, next you will say SBCL is one true open source Common Lisp?
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<Bike>
i think other lisp implementations are used more than hugs or whatever
<q1999>
anyone developing in sbcl on emacs using slime who is willing to help with a (probably setup) problem?
<aeth>
If you went into #haskell how many people are using the GHC vs. other implementations? Here, the CCLers are a vocal minority and pretty much every SBCLer who writes libraries tests on at least CCL
<puchacz>
people use lispworks too, although commercial
<puchacz>
not sure if people really use franz these days
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<Bike>
q1999: you should go ahead and describe the problem
<aeth>
I think ECL is #3 here. It might not be #3 in the Lisp community in general. It's probably really hard to determine a #3
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<q1999>
ok. installed sbcl, using emacs 24.5.1 on windows 7, using slime from elpa. when I create a new package using quicklisp, I can quickload the package and use in-package to move the reple from cl-user to package. but when I close emacse, go to the root, start slime and try to quickload the same package, all I get is SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND. It is driving me up the wall. uninstalled and reinstalled everything except emacs, but still no go.
<Xach>
not too hard, do not fret
<Xach>
q1999: where is the new thing you created located?
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<q1999>
I start slime from dired buffer or test.lisp buffer, the package asd and lisp are one folder (named after the package) down. starting slime from within that folder results in the same pesky SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND.
<Xach>
Like, quite literally, what is the path to the thing?
<pjb>
q1999: in general, I would advise to use #P"" instead of strings for paths, notably if they contain system specific notations (eg. ~/ on unix, C: on ms-dos).
<Xach>
I must be missing some context, sorry.
<pjb>
q1999: erc is in emacs, it's easier without quotes to evaluate the sexp locally.
<Xach>
q1999: what do you get if you try (probe-file "c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/bit-stream.asd")?
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<pjb>
q1999: but foremore, it introduces an ambiguity, since a string is also a sexp!
<pjb>
Now, with *central-registry*, you may want to use pushnew: (pushnew #P"c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/" asdf:*central-registry* :test (function equalp))
<pjb>
q1999: probe, like open, merges the path with *default-pathname-defaults*, not with the paths in asdf:*central-registry*.
<Xach>
q1999: is there no bit-stream.asd file in that directory?
<q1999>
tried the pushnew but am now on a merry go round, lol. there is a bit-stream.asd in the dir.
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<q1999>
pff, I'm back at the prompt cl-user>
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<q1999>
after the pushnew and a ql:quickload :bit-stream, slime came back with: (ql:quickload :bit-stream)
<q1999>
Load 1 ASDF system:
<q1999>
To load "bit-stream":
<q1999>
bit-stream
<q1999>
; Loading "bit-stream"
<q1999>
[package bit-stream];
<q1999>
; compilation unit aborted
<q1999>
; caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
<q1999>
..............................
<q1999>
[package bit-stream];
<q1999>
; compilation unit aborted
<q1999>
; caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
<q1999>
..............................
<q1999>
[package bit-stream];
<q1999>
; compilation unit aborted
<q1999>
; caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
<q1999>
..............................
<q1999>
[package bit-stream];
<q1999>
; compilation unit aborted
<q1999>
; caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
<q1999>
; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-PCL::NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD-ERROR {25107721}>.
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<q1999>
thanks for now Xach and pjb. I'm parting to have a closer look at asdf registry docs and your feedback. If you don't see me back soon, your input helped to solve my problem.
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<aeth>
Is there a way to print a CLOS object and all of its slots? The debugger is not a good solution because there are just so many objects. I have to dissect them programatically.
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<Bike>
inspect, describe
<Bike>
if you want something else, use mop
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<Bike>
or just do something specific to whatever class you're actually concerned with
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