jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<ebrasca> kenster: But if you decentralize the live streaming ? ( Using more than 1 server )
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<ebrasca> kenster: what time and time zone?
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<Misha_B> is there a method to determine if two lists are equal with no regard to order
<Bike> (not (set-exclusive-or ...)) i think
<Bike> er (null ...)
<Misha_B> thanks
<zachk> Misha_B, you could try sorting both lists and seeing if they are equal, if they are sortable
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<ebrasca> kenster: Have you defined setf for bucket?
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<kenster> ebrasca: I didn't see what you said but yeah I had to add that field to upload-session haha
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<ebzzry> Does any know why I get `Condition QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA was signalled.` in Quicklisp?
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<ebrasca> kenster: I need to sleep. Bye and have fun.
<kenster> thanks, good night
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<Xach> ebzzry: it can happen if a request is fubar
<Xach> ebzzry: does it happen a lot for you?
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<Beep-Lord> Anyone have a resource on wrapping a demacro form with nested back quotes?
<Beep-Lord> s/demacro/defmacro
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<Xach> my policy thus far has been to avoid it
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<ebzzry> Xach: it happens consistently on a particular task that I’m doing.
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<Xach> ebzzry: which one?
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<ebzzry> Xach: let me send you the Dockerfile
<ebzzry> It stops on the last `make` step.
<Xach> ebzzry: not for me.
<ebzzry> Xach: that’s what I would expect, too.
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<Xach> why?
<ebzzry> Xach: it should work. :(
<ebzzry> Xach: let me check again.
<Xach> ebzzry: do you have a proxy or anything fun like that?
<Xach> transparent something or other?
<ebzzry> Xach: my ISP may be doing something
<Xach> boo to them
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<ebzzry> Xach: let me try that, again.
<ebzzry> Xach: Wait, so you mean to say the Docker image build fine?
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<JuanDaugherty> yello beach
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<joh11> Hi guys ! I just had a small question
<pjb> Apparently, not small enough for this margin.
<joh11> if I called a function foo from the repl that calls another function bar, is there a way, when I recompile bar that foo automatically use the new version ?
<joh11> ok I lied ti wasn't that small xD
<pjb> This is not specified by the standard, but of course, one can design an algorithm to include in an implementation to do that.
<pjb> Also, have a look at ibcl, you could implement it in an implementation independent way, as an add-on library.
<joh11> ok thanks !
<pjb> joh11: err, let me correct that.
<MichaelRaskin> Also, check if the desired behaviour is already what your implementation does
<pjb> For functions defined in the REPL, this is already the case, it's automatic. Also, functions defined in different compilation units when compiled (usually different files).
<joh11> Im just messing with sdl2 and wanted to leave my window opened while coding other stuff, this works with variables but not with functions apparently
<MichaelRaskin> Also often true if you load files by LOAD
<pjb> joh11: said otherwise, the called functions are "hardwired" in the caller only when the called function is declared INLINE and not NOTINLINE, or when they're in the same compilation unit.
<pjb> joh11: in the other cases, the calls go (semantically) thru the symbol-function, so if you redefine a function, it's taken into account next.
<joh11> ok so if I mark foo as NOTINLINE, or place it in another file than bar it should work ?
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<pjb> Yes.
<pjb> If your program design depends on changing the function definition at run-time, do declare it NOTINLINE.
<joh11> ok
<joh11> man lisp is just so cool
<pjb> so about FUNCTION, FDEFINITION, SYMBOL-FUNCTION, the thing is that they return the function object. If you store it somewhere, and redefine the function, then those old function objects are still used.
<pjb> This is one important difference between (apply (function foo) args) and (apply (quote foo) args).
<pjb> In the first case, the function object is passed, in the second case, the symbol FOO is passed. In the later case the APPLY function will call SYMBOL-FUNCTION itself, so if the definition of FOO has changed, APPLY will use the last fbinding, ie. the redefinition.
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<pjb> Assume the function or object are not passed directly, but stored somewhere before the call.
<joh11> wow didn't thought about it
<joh11> so to be sure I should use ' instead of #' in my apply calls ?
<pjb> For example, if you play with reader macros: (set-macro-character #\^ 'reader-macro-for-^) is better while developping it and testing it, because just redefining the function is enough for the reader macro to take it into account. With (set-macro-character #\^ #'reader-macro-for-^) you will have to re-evaluate this form each time you modify the function.
<pjb> joh11: you should use ' or #' depending on your meaning!
<pjb> Ie. if you write a HOF (high order function, a function that takes functions as arguments), instead of restricting it to functions (checktype fun function), you should allow function designators (deftype function-designator () `(or function symbol)) (checktype fun function-designator)
<joh11> ok thanks !
<pjb> So the user of your function can choose.
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<joh11> ok so I moved bar to another file but now I have another problem : my (format t "test") are not displayed
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<joh11> but I am sure it is called
<joh11> and I used (force-output) after
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<pjb> joh11: err, moving to a different file is not necessarily the best option. It makes it implicit. And usually files are used to organize things by module (or by package), rather than on such technicality. It would be better to just (declaim (notinline bar)).
<pjb> format t outputs to *standard-output* which may be bound to different streams at different times, and streams can be redirected to various places.
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<joh11> pbj: yeah but in my case it makes more sense because it is a collision handling function so it is ok to place it elsewhere
<pjb> joh11: you may also use STEP to see what functions are called, step by step. In ccl, cl:step is not implemented, so you may use cl-stepper instead. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/cl-stepper$20lisp$20informatimago/comp.lang.lisp/nj3jFxcJYM0/QbzGkAbyAtMJ (cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone http://github.com/informatimago/lisp informatimago) before quickload.
<joh11> thanks, anyway im using sbcl
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<pjb> good. still consider cl-stepper, it has nice features. (eg. (step (foo) :trace) will prints a trace of all steps. (big output). Happily (or not), cl-stepper works by instrumenting the code, so it only steps the code that has been compiled with cl-stepper instead of cl.
<pjb> )
<joh11> the dreaded unclosed parenthesis xD
<pjb> :-)
<jackdaniel> you may be a meanie and cause a serious distress to most channel participants by ending your sentence with opening parenthesis (
<joh11> so I will have to store a variable to the *standard-output* so that it is not shadowed by the sdl stuff ?
<joh11> or there is a cleaner way to do it
<jackdaniel> it may be not enough, *standard-output* may be a synonym stream!
<pjb> You may use *trace-output*
<pjb> (format *trace-output* "trace level output~%")
<pjb> also, say, debugging "traces". There's a *debug-io* but it's for interactive debugging, it may be connected to GUI instead of logs…
<pjb> or of course you can (defvar *my-trace-output* *standard-output*) but this would duplicate *trace-output* for no good reason apparently.
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<makomo> if i have a class and i have functions (instead of methods, because i don't need the genericity) that perform operations on objects of this class
<makomo> how should i name the functions?
<joh11> pbj: ok it works now with a (defvar *my-stream* *trace-output*) but only when I press enter on the repl so not that great. Anyway it was only for debug purposes, I'll use step instead
<pjb> makomo: name the function after the result produced.
<pjb> Eg. SIN is named because it returns the SINUS of the argument.
<pjb> STRING-UPCASE is named like that, because it returns an upcased string from the string designator argument.
<pjb> etc.
<pjb> For procedures (operators that don't return anything specific, but that have specific side effects), name them after the main side effect.
<pjb> Eg. PRINT is called PRINT because it prints stuff. FORMAT is called FORMAT because it formats stuff. READ is called READ because it reads stuff.
<makomo> pjb: it's not always that easy :/. this function returns the clock's state (computed as a function of the clock's current cycle)
<makomo> just naming it STATE would be dumb
<pjb> makomo: clock-state
<makomo> naming it clock-state is better
<makomo> yes. what i was aiming for is, whether or not i should use CLOCK- as a prefix all the time for such functions
<makomo> but i'm also not sure if i should make them be methods instead
<pjb> joh11: for debugging purposes you can go ahead and use directly *trace-output*. What do you mean only on the REPL? Do you run it otherwise?
<pjb> makomo: perhaps not systematically.
<pjb> For example, if you have a function that returns the hour from your clock, just call it HOUR. No need for a CLOCK-HOUR with the prefix.
<makomo> yeah, and if there's also SECONDS for example
<makomo> SECONDS is too vague imo
<makomo> it really depends on the word
<pjb> makomo: but also, it's a question of style and of API. If you define functions for an API (if they're exported from your package) you should think ahead to keey it stable on long term. So if now it's a mere function, it could become a generic function later.
<makomo> and if later on you end up with a word that's too vague, you'll have to rename everything else to be consistent
<pjb> Using the prefix is often seen. It's the default for defstruct accessors.
<makomo> pjb: yup true. although, for generic functions there's usually no problem, since you have specialization going on
<pjb> You can also use unicode: ⌛hour ⌛minute ⌛seconds ;-)
<makomo> hah :D
<pjb> (nope, don't do that in a public library).
<pjb> (defconstant ½ 1/2) (* ½ 3) #| --> 3/2 |#
<makomo> damn, sometimes i miss static typing and overloading
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<pjb> makomo: generic functions can be overloaded with various methods.
<joh11> pjb: nevermind I found the problem. I forgot to specify the stream in (force-output) it was *standard-output* that was flushed, and I had to press enter (or any expr) in the REPL to show it
<makomo> pjb: i guess, but that requires using generic functions instead of normal functions
<makomo> which isn't a downside by itself, but eh, still
<pjb> joh11: ok.
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<ebzzry> Xach: thanks for verifying. it builds well now. it was my connection, indeed.
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<aeth> A prefix is a good way to handle things (I see it sometimes even for defclass accessors)
<aeth> You can always hide the prefix with a macro
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<Xach> ebrasca: phew
<Xach> sorry
<Xach> meant for ebzzry
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<shka_> heh, i just opened request to add to the quicklisp code that was stolen from the quicklisp client
<shka_> i feel so dirty :P
<Xach> it's all good
<Xach> shka_: would you consider adding some example usage to the README?
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<shka_> I am doing it right now
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<shka_> Xach: done
<Xach> yay
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<beach> I think I have a FAIRLY complete description of my planned nursery garbage collector. More examples and more figures will be added, but I think it is complete enough to be presented to a wider audience: http://metamodular.com/garbage-collection.pdf
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<beach> It is a bit long, but there are lots of figures, so it is not as bad as it looks.
<beach> Remarks are welcome, as usual.
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<beach> Next, I'll be doing more work on the description of the synchronization between nursery collectors and the global collector.
<shka_> cool
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<kenster> Hey everybody, I'm doing a Comfy Lisp Programming stream in 30 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbfHpLUPL7E
<kenster> alternatively, I'm also on twitch. Here's the event: https://www.twitch.tv/events/Yh7I84GuTSKRNZ6oKg1g3Q
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