jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<holycow> thanks
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<drmeister> Is there any issue with ambiguous situations like (defun foo (x x x) (declare (ignore x)) ...)?
<drmeister> When compiling things like this, if the lambda-list has a variable multiple times - the declare can't uniquely specify which bindings have declarations attached to them.
<mfiano> That is not allowed anyway
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<pfdietz_> I'm looking in the CLHS and I'm not seeing where it prohibits lambda list vars from have the same names.
<mfiano> pfdietz_: Section 3.1.1 states, "A single name can simultaneously have more than one associated binding per environment, but can have only one associated binding per namespace.". So, (defun foo (x x ...) ...) should be an error.
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<thinking> Hey everyone. I have been thinking about the various polymorphisms, from parametric to ad-hoc to subtyping the ad-hoc and other mixtures, etc. and it's rather trippy for my brain at this point. How would you describe clos if you had to categorize it under a polymorphism wiki page with CL as one example lang?
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<mfiano> CLOS generic functions are a form of parametric polymorphism with some restrictions. All methods must have the same function signature, and you cannot dispatch on types, only classes and anything comparable with EQL. But it makes up for these shortcomings in many ways. CLOS is incredibly powerful.
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<shka1> good morning
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<thinking> Thanks mfiano
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<kenster> Hey how do I define a generic for a method that will then be defined as an accessor in defclass?
<kenster> (defgeneric ptr (self))
<kenster> (ptr :accessor ptr :initarg :ptr)
<kenster> attempt to add the method
<beach> kenster: (defgeneric name (x)) (defgeneric (setf name) (new-value x))
<kenster> #<STANDARD-METHOD (#<STANDARD-CLASS FILEBUCKET:HOSTING-SESSION>) {1004BEBC53}>
<kenster> to the generic function
<kenster> #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CFFI-UTILS:NEW (0)>;
<kenster> but the method and generic function differ in whether they accept
<kenster> &REST or &KEY arguments.
<kenster> ah okay so the problem is something else then
<kenster> nvm
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<beach> kenster: The CFFI-UTILS prefix makes me nervous.
<beach> Is that really yours?
<kenster> what do you mean is it mine?
<beach> It sounded like you are defining your own class and your own generic function. No?
<kenster> yea
<beach> And you are defining it in the package CFFI-UTILS? And the name is NEW?
<kenster> yea
<beach> OK.
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<beach> If it is a slot reader or a slot writer, it does not have any &rest or &key arguments.
<beach> So it looks like you are giving one of those to your DEFGENERIC.
<kenster> yeah I was reading the error wrongly, it was a different function that isn't an accessor, my bad
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<kenster> I was wondering if there was a way to rid that append in (append '(,c-class-name) ,params)) on line 41
<beach> kenster: The new value of the slot is the first parameter to the SETF function.
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<kenster> right
<beach> Maybe that's what it is saying. I cant figure out why you don't have a SELF in the SETF function.
<beach> And why do you call it SELF in the PTR function?
<kenster> no I fixed the error already
<kenster> that's why I saiid nvm
<kenster> sorry if I wasn't clear
<beach> But you still posted this link.
<beach> FOO is not such a great parameter name.
<kenster> I was just asking about the append
<kenster> yeah I should have put new-value, oops
<beach> Yes, apply takes a sequence of arguments and the last one is the list of remaining ones.
<kenster> oh
<kenster> thx
<beach> (apply #'make-instance ',c-class-name ,params)
<beach> clhs apply
<beach> ywlcm
<kenster> ywlcm?
<beach> You said thx.
<kenster> oh lol
<kenster> didn't read that right XD
<shka1> is this tutorial up to date?
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<shka1> i cos-animation does not seem to work
<beach> kenster: You could use Emacs abbrevs to have thx expand to "thank you very much"for instance.
<kenster> I don't use irc in emacs
<kenster> but that'd be funny, yeah
<beach> So you are using the wrong IRC client if it doesn't let you do abbrevs.
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<kenster> I'm pretty sure weechat does, yeah. I use konversation for freenode because it's inconveinent to jumpnetwork on znc all the time, though I guess I could connect to znc/freenode, znc/rizon, etc.
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<shka1> this tutorial seems to eventually call CLIM:INVOKE-UPDATING-OUTPUT but there is no method available for arguments passed
* shka1 is confused
<beach> shka1: Try asking in #clim. Maybe jackdaniel or loke could help you.
<beach> shka1: I could help you, but I am dealing with some other emergencies right now.
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<shka1> i need to go to work in 30 minutes, i will ask in the evening
<beach> Good plan.
<shka1> beach: hopefully everything will turn good for you!
<beach> Yeah, well, my day had a bad start. But it will get better. Thanks.
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<shka1> btw, i like how code is highlighted at common-lisp.net
<shka1> it looks cool
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<loke> shkaIs ther code on common-lisp.net?
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<beach> Talk to me about the advantage of allocating object with dynamic extent on the stack, please. I wrote this to clear my thoughts: http://metamodular.com/dynamic-extent.pdf The real discussion starts around the middle of the second page (page 64) with "It is entirely possible..." and ends after the first line of the fourth page, so the entire thing is really only 1.5 pages.
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<lieven> on the basic issue, I suspect that with "modern" GC techniques, simply ignoring the declaration is fine
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<beach> That would be my guess. But I am open to arguments either way.
<lieven> as a nitpick, I'm not convinced by your footnote on p. 64 that if the two functions are in the same compilation unit, it is guaranteed that the two will be redefined at the same time
<lieven> somewhere the program can always call COMPILE to redefine stuff
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<beach> lieven: Yes, I totally agree. The Common Lisp HyperSpec allows for this assumption, but it prevents things like C-c C-c in SLIME from working, so I don't intend to take advantage of it.
<lieven> well, I'm also not sure if you do this, barring any not-inline declarations, you're not obliged to honour your previous assertions
<beach> Too many negations in that phrase for me. Can you give an example instead?
<lieven> if you have declared NOT-INLINE, the compiler shouldn't assume too much
<beach> Correct. The Common Lisp HyperSpec is clear about it I think.
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<lieven> if the compiler is allowed to inline, it could reasonably expect that any redefinition keeps the previous semantics wrt declarations
<beach> I still don't intend to take advantage of it. At least not by default.
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<lieven> but I'm not sure all this is explicitly spelled out
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<beach> It is allowed to expect that but it may not be true.
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<lieven> well yeah, if you lie to the compiler, it may get its revenge
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<beach> Exactly.
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<lieven> there is a weird phrase in the DYNAMIC-EXTENT entry of the hyperspec: Most compilers would probably not stack allocate the argument to g in f because it would be a modularity violation for the compiler to assume facts about g from within f. Only an implementation that was willing to be responsible for recompiling f if the definition of g changed incompatibly could legitimately stack allocate the list argument
<lieven> to g in f.
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<beach> Yes, I remember it.
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<lieven> this seems to give a compiler the right to track depencencies and recompile more stuff whenever it feels like it
<beach> Let me look at the example again...
<beach> Yes, I see.
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<beach> I just did something very interesting...
<beach> I created a function in SBCL that allocates a list that is declare DYNAMIC-EXTENT.
<beach> It then calls another function with this list and then another. The last one just calls FIND passing this list. Not important exactly what they do.
<beach> They are in the same compilation unit, so the compiler can assume that no individual function is redefinde.
<beach> Now I do (trace <innermost-function> :break t) and I call the outermost function.
<beach> In the debugger, I evaluate (defparameter *l* list) where list is the list with dynamic extent.
<beach> I know have a list as the value of the special variable *l* that is allocated in a stack frame that no longer exists.
<beach> I now
<beach> So *l* contains garbage.
<no-defun-allowed> very interesting
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<no-defun-allowed> what does it print as?
<beach> (#<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1001901263}> . #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1001901263}>)
<beach> It should have been (hello 1 2 3)
<beach> So basically, in a safe system, there are just too many restrictions when dynamic-extent is used.
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<shka> beach: interesting
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<beach> Yes, if safety is a requirement, the debugger can not be allowed to inspect an object with dynamic extent.
<beach> Er, an object that, as a result of having been determined to have dynamic extent, has been allocated on the stack.
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<beach> As it turns out, I will have a similar problem with the SICL garbage collector. If an object that is allocated in a nursery is being inspected by a debugger running in a different thread, that object must be promoted first. Or else there will be a reference from one thread to the nursery of a different thread which would be a violation of an invariant I defined.
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<theemacsshibe> hi from mezzano
<beach> Hello theemacsshibe! Nice!
<no-defun-allowed> shut up, IRC alt of me
<theemacsshibe> hi beach
<theemacsshibe> either virtualbox graphics suck, i have configured something wrong or there are hurge GC pauses
<theemacsshibe> still more usable than redox :^)
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<beach> Very nice!
<no-defun-allowed> it's very impressive
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<antoszka> looks much better than last time i looked :)
<no-defun-allowed> indeed it does
<no-defun-allowed> i had demo 2, and demo 4 is amazing
<shka> and you can play doom
<shka> which is cool
<shka> mezzano amazes me
<no-defun-allowed> also quake
<beach> Now we "just" need more applications. :)
<no-defun-allowed> the clim benchmark is faster than on xquartz too
<no-defun-allowed> let's test out quicklisp
<no-defun-allowed> optima says `Not a parseable integer "asd"`.
<no-defun-allowed> weird
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<no-defun-allowed> seems to be an issue in mezzano.file-system:parse-namestring-using-host
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<froggey> quicklisp was a last-minute addition, I didn't test it too thoroughly
<froggey> anaphora was the system I used for testing
<beach> froggey: Impressive work.
<beach> froggey: Did you start your crowdfunding for financing your ELS trip yet?
<beach> froggey: In fact, you should write a paper for ELS about Mezzano.
<froggey> thanks
<froggey> I haven't, you think I should start now?
<beach> Might as well.
<beach> Now is a good time, given the excitement about the new release. :)
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<froggey> true
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<no-defun-allowed> very well done froggey, mezzano is amazing
<no-defun-allowed> in my opinion SMP would be the next big step to make
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<froggey> beach: I'm not sure what I'd write about, and I've never been good at that kind of thing...
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<froggey> no-defun-allowed: thanks. some SMP support exists, but is very buggy at the moment
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<beach> froggey: I could help you out. After all, a paper is max 8 pages, so you could have a summary of the elements of Mezzano: the compiler, the garbage collector, device drivers, graphics.
<beach> You have 8 pages right there.
<beach> froggey: There would be a "previous work" section, where you would mention Genera (of course) and Movitz.
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<beach> froggey: A "conclusions and future work" section where you state your plans.
<beach> froggey: Oh, and you wrote a C compiler that generates Common Lisp or something like that?
<beach> That's worth an entire section.
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<MrSleepy> Hello, do you guys know any good tools/methods that would work well in vim for formatting lisp source code? Lately I've been using astyle but the default option on my install doesn't play nicely with lisp comments.
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<beach> Doesn't SLIMV do that kind of stuff?
<shka> it kinda amazes me
<shka> froggey: you do this just casually? :D
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<jackdaniel> beach: I'll let myself answer your question: froggey has written llvm->cl transpiler: https://github.com/froggey/Iota
<beach> OK. See, that's publishable.
<pjb> beach: the only case where dynamic-extend could make a significant difference IMO, is in presence of threads. But if you have an allocator that uses separate zones for the different threads, probably even not in this case.
<beach> pjb: Good point.
<pjb> In any case, I trust the compiler more than the programmer, so I never use those declarations.
<pjb> (and tend to remove them when I find them).
<beach> I tend to agree.
<pjb> It's a maintaince headache, because the proof that those objects don't leak is never present, so if you touch the code, you have to reestablish them. Simpler to kill the declaration.
<beach> Another very good point.
<froggey> ok. I'll think about it. I have over half a year to get it done, right?
<beach> Probably so. February is the typical deadline.
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<beach> froggey: But if you finish a few weeks before that, I can read and help you fix it.
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<MrSleepy> beach, that would make sense if it does I played around with a couple plugins for vim like right now I have vim-slime. The usual setup I have is just vim running in tmux and a separate pane running sbcl or bash or whatever.
<froggey> ok
<MrSleepy> I will experiment more with them :]
<beach> MrSleepy: I am not sure what that means. I guess you would have to talk with someone here who actually uses vim for Common Lisp programming.
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<beach> froggey: The way I typically work is that I post early versions of articles here for comments. Then I get a ton of remarks from the nice and knowledgeable people here in #lisp. I then make several iterations until we have a good compromise. Finally, the nice people who commented get to be cited in the acknowledgments section.
<beach> froggey: Even very early drafts usually get read and commented on.
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<froggey> I see
<beach> I don't want to nag you, but here is another reason: When hanging out here in #lisp, it is easy to think that the entire Common Lisp community is here. That is not the case. At ELS, you will find people who never use IRC, or perhaps just occasionally.
<beach> Those people should be aware of Mezzano, in my opinion.
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<MrSleepy> beach, slimv and vim-slime are both plugins for vim. tmux is a terminal multiplexer, You can use it for features like tabs and panes and what not if your terminal doesn't provide those kinds of things.
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<MrSleepy> it works pretty well if you're stuck with no xserver or whatever which is neat
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<beach> I see.
<froggey> sure. I've noticed it gets a bunch of word-of-mouth coverage outside #lisp, but it's unlikely to reach everyone that way
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<beach> froggey: Yeah, the people who attend ELS are surprisingly ignorant of what is going on. :)
<beach> I exaggerate of course. There are quite a few people who both come to ELS and hand out here.
<beach> hang
<beach> Time for a break it seems.
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<froggey> on a different topic: I use DYNAMIC-EXTENT declarations a bunch in the lower levels of mezzano, in the parts that support the GC & can't safely allocate
<froggey> the main users are debug logging functions that take a &rest list of messages and with-mutex-locked which passes a dynamic-extent local function to call-with-mutex-locked (and some other similar macros)
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<froggey> I try to avoid it elsewhere because of the safety issue
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<beach> That's fine in my opinion.
<beach> For SICL I plan to allow many things in "system code" that would not be allowed by default.
<beach> Anyway, time for a break.
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<schjetne> beach: I was reminded of your programming language talk. My current job wants to give me full choice of tech, now I have to see if I dare suggest Common Lisp
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<shka> schjetne: do it
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<Spaceman77> Hello. I am a backend web dev with an education in robotics. Currently i am planning to advance my proficiency in c++, however, time and time again I come across LISP and some sort of enlightenment that comes with "getting it".
<Spaceman77> Is it worth learning it (by reading SICP), even if i will likely never use it in production?
<shka> Spaceman77: what is more important, lisp has long history with robots
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<jackdaniel> Spaceman77: LISP is an old language. Common Lisp is one of its descendants (this channel is dedicated to this language)
<jackdaniel> some people use CL professionally
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<Spaceman77> Wait a sec, roombas are programmed in Lisp?
<jackdaniel> Spaceman77: it is worth learning this language, definetely. SICP learns scheme (yet another lisp dialect), and is an excellent book.
<shka> honda's 90s android is programmed in lisp as well
<jackdaniel> if you want to learn common lisp from really good author, read PAIP (paradigms of artificial intelligence) which was recently released to read for free
<jackdaniel> there is also PCL (which is another great resource)
<jackdaniel> minion: tell Spaceman77 about pcl
<minion> Spaceman77: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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<LdBeth> shka (IRC): it would be nice to have a dog sitting on that
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<jackdaniel> Spaceman77: and PAIP: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<shka> software for space shuttle manipulator is written in lisp as well
<Spaceman77> My main focus in robotics has been computer vision. Not in object recognition as much as in localisation and navigation
<shka> Spaceman77: as i said, lisp has long history with robotics
<Spaceman77> I have also heard of unique metaprogramming capabilities in Lisp
<shka> those exist
<Spaceman77> jackdaniel: thank you for the resources!
<jackdaniel> this comes as a natural consequence of language homoiconity: you may output code as data and use it in form of macros (for instance)
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<jackdaniel> also Lisp is built in layers from a very simple concepts, that's why code generators are common among more proficient programmers
<jackdaniel> full reflection of the system image is another great capability which allows metaprogramming (i.e via Meta-Object Protocol)
<Spaceman77> What are some things you have made using CL?
<jackdaniel> I rarely start projects from scratch (I'm more a contributor-kind of a person than reinvent-this-to-my-liking one)
<Spaceman77> jackdaniel: hah, I am the complete opposite :)
<jackdaniel> I'm sure you'll find many alike spirits in CL community (and I'm saying it with a tiny bit of sarcasm ;)
<jackdaniel> one common misconception I'm going to debunk before you ask: Common Lisp is *not* functional programming language, it is a multi-paradigm one
<shka> Spaceman77: froggey here made OS in lisp, and you can play doom on it :P, shinmera wrote drawning application in lisp called parasol...
<jackdaniel> and OOP is the most commonly used paradigm (with a twist - functions are specialized on objects, not being part of them)
<Spaceman77> jackdaniel: i knew about the paradigms, yeah
<jackdaniel> OK, glad to hear that
<jackdaniel> it is just a common misconception
<shka> Spaceman77: there is a list of applications https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-cl-software
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<jackdaniel> interesting, this list has numerous applications written in CLIM but no CLIM implementation listed
<shka> well, perhaps CLIM implementation is not considered to be application
<shka> though it does include things that are clearly libraries
<shka> anyway, you are perhaps unlikely to work for money in cl
<shka> but chances are not 0%
<jackdaniel> this is a fad; working for many in language of your choice is a matter of determination, not taking chances
<jackdaniel> money
<shka> well, ok
<shka> anyway
<Spaceman77> Yeah, the money and employability is another one. I could, as I said, spend time learning c++, and there are places where c++ is in demand still, but i have no clue about CL.
<shka> Spaceman77: common lisp is fun, is portable, standard is stable, there is quicklisp so we have package manager that makes life easier
<Spaceman77> Heck, in my country i barely see any job ads that are not JS/PHP/Java/C# or some ruby and python
<shka> certainly worth playing with
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<schjetne> shka: I will consider it. I need a nice DSL, and of course CL is known to excel at that.
<jackdaniel> Spaceman77: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ this is a common resource. there is a few companies hiring CL programmers (some hire remotely too)
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<shka> at the very least it does not makes you angry enough to throw your computer screen out of the window :-)
<jackdaniel> but indeed, if you have your own business, client rarely asks about language
<schjetne> I'm living in deep Haskell and Erlang territory, those are interesting too.
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<hjudt> i want to serialize out objects. the way i currently do this is to create alists with printable representations, then pass that to cl-json:encode-json-alist-to-string. is there a more general way to generate the alist from the object? e.g. specifying a serialization function when defining an object slot?
<jackdaniel> schjetne: do you use LFE by chance? [http://lfe.io/]
<schjetne> No, but I've heard a lot of good about it
<jackdaniel> hjudt: cl-store is a very good library for that
<jackdaniel> hjudt: and has very fine coverage across implementations and object types
<shka> i second cl-store
<jackdaniel> (also, it is recommended in Common Lisp Recipes)
<shka> it is great
<jackdaniel> I'm getting back to my (paid, mundane, CL) task ;-) later
<hjudt> thanks for the recommendation. my problem is this: i want to export to json because i can then also use these code paths for providing objects for the web (javascript).
<shka> hjudt: maybe you can extend cl-store to handle json
<shka> that's what i would try anyway
<hjudt> ok, but sounds more complicated than writing methods for three or four classes to convert them to alists...
<shka> hmm
<hjudt> does anyone do direct conversion of obj->json instead of using alists?
<shka> probabbly it is not more complicated to be honest
<hjudt> i simply found alists an easy way to write and read back in
<jackdaniel> if you are interested in serializing strictly to json, then yason is a good library with fine api and jsown is a *fast* library with not-so-fine syntax
<jackdaniel> but also with easy api
<shka> look at customazing
<shka> maybe i should try to plug jsown here
<shka> sounds like simple project
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<shka> wooha cl-store has example for handling python pickle format
<shka> niiiiiiiiiice
<shka> hjudt: cl-store seems to be designed around binary formats though
<hjudt> looks like i could achieve what i need with yason could also do it with encode-object-slots and encode-object-element.
<hjudt> but i will also want to read it back in, so still have to look that up
<hjudt> anyway, thanks for the suggestion, i used to use base64 to encode/decode binary data. cl-store might prove to be a more convenient solution for this.
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<d4ryus> bw
<d4ryus> urgh, wrong channel :/
<pjb> ok
<pjb> There's a fee for wrong channel messages here…
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<flip214> pjb: did you trigger that one as well right now?
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<beach> schjetne: Good luck. It is pretty risky to suggest Common Lisp. You will be held responsible if anything goes wrong.
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<schjetne> beach: if I do I will certainly make sure there's a big benefit to choosing it in this particular case
<on_ion> =)
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<beach> schjetne: Yes, as long as you know what you are doing. :)
<beach> schjetne: I am available as a consultant, should your project need it. :)
<schjetne> Your talk certainly gave me some pointers. And I will consider accepting your consulting services.
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<beach> Great!
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<schjetne> It's a big complicated distributed system, so it's probably wise to get some outside advice
<beach> Hmm, yes I see.
<schjetne> Control systems and sensors and stuff.
<beach> Oh, nice.
<pjb> The main risk is in the FFI part. The CL part won't pose any problem.
<beach> I used to work for a division of what is now ABB with control systems as its main product.
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<schjetne> I'll take a 2 week vacation to hopefully get my PPL back on track and not think about control systems, but after that I might get in touch with you about that stuff.
<beach> Good plan.
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<shka1> good evening
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<zigpaw> evening
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<Bike> mop generic-function-name
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<Copenhagen_Bram> that lisp operating system, it can play doom but can it play freedoom?
* Copenhagen_Bram realizes he was scrolled way up and spoke too late
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<JuanDaugherty> the dreaded necroscroll
<Aetherda3n> I just joined. What are you referring to, Juan?
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<JuanDaugherty> lol
<JuanDaugherty> if it wasn't a joke, it's a publicly logged channel
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<Aetherda3n> So...was it a joke?
<JuanDaugherty> Aetherda3n, if it wasn't a joke, it's a publicly logged channel
<Copenhagen_Bram> Aetherda3n: JuanDaugherty is informing you that this channel has a public log so that you can read what was said before you joined, in case your message wasn't a joke
<Aetherda3n> Oh, thank you
<Copenhagen_Bram> You're welcome lol
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<no-defun-allowed> Copenhagen_Bram: you can probably replace DOOM.WAD in it
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<Copenhagen_Bram> no-defun-allowed: how does DOOM.WAD come with the doom engine, anyway? Isn't DOOM.WAD copyrighted?
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<aeth> All outdated id Tech (Quake) engines before the acquisition by ZeniMax were GPLed, as were engines specific to certain key games (like Doom), but not the assets for those games. So generally you would have to provide your own assets from purchased or shareware copies (except for Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, which is freeware, so you just download the assets from the official site)
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