<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've been thinking it might be interesting to have a CLIM backend that controls emacs via swank:eval-in-emacs
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<jackdaniel>
LdBeth: just pass :title "foo" in define-application-frame
<jackdaniel>
it defaults to the frame name indeed
<jackdaniel>
*just pass :NAME "foo" – not :title (!) sorry
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<beach>
fiddlerwoaroof: What would the use of such a thing be?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
It would be portable, cross-platform mainly
<beach>
Yes, but I don't understand what such a thing does.
<beach>
Sorry for being dense. It's early in the morning.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Ah, emacs already has a widget library and various text styling facilities and slime/swank seem to have a way to bind a buffer to a stream.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It would be kinda interesting to have something like clim-listener running inside of an emacs window
<beach>
OK, I see. Thanks for the explanation.
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<beach>
fiddlerwoaroof: There is a lot of McCLIM activity at the moment, so if you want to pursue that idea, this is a good time.
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<shka_>
good evening
<beach>
?
<beach>
shka_: Where are you?
<shka_>
haha, i think that i did not sleep that well xD
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<shka_>
good morning, obviously
<beach>
OK.
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<LdBeth>
jackdaniel: Actually I want to pass it to make-application-frame, and I figured out I want :pretty-name, but thanks
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<LdBeth>
Common Lisp's inspector is great
<splittist>
good morning
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<shka_>
russellw: i think that basicly nobody attempts to align columns in lisp
<shka_>
at least i don't see it
<russellw>
cool, thanks
<beach>
russellw: Lining up the columns has at least two disadvantages that I can see: First, it takes more effort when you introduce more lines of code, because the old alignment may then be wrong. Second, if one line has a short first word and a long second word, and another has a long first word and a short second word, you can get into a situation where lines end up far to the right, even though there is room for each individual line when
<beach>
it is not aligned.
<russellw>
beach, true! I'm writing an auto formatter which would solve the first problem, but not the second
<beach>
I see.
<_death>
there was redshank
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<Myon>
shka_: 2:1.4.11-1
<Myon>
Debian unstable
<shka_>
maybe i have older version of nibbles then
<beach>
phoe: Most of the CLOS code is split up into support/defgenerics/defmethods
<phoe>
Oh. It simply calls REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
<beach>
Only if the class already exists.
<phoe>
...well, not "simply".
<phoe>
But in the end, yes.
<phoe>
If it doesn't exist, it creates that class.
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<beach>
Yes, that's it's purpose in life.
<phoe>
(:
<beach>
phoe: What problem are you trying to solve?
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<phoe>
beach: extending CLOS to add an alternate class type. Classes are usually named by symbols; I've found an use case for objects that are named by lists containing two symbols.
<beach>
phoe: I think the presentation types in McCLIM are represented by classes named that way.
<phoe>
"2. The cleanup clauses of any intervening unwind-protect clauses are evaluated. "
<beach>
:loop is an exit point that should be "abandoned" if someone transfers control outside that tagbody.
<phoe>
Yes, but control isn't transferred outside of that tagbody.
<phoe>
It's transferred right into the tagbody.
<beach>
If ... contains a (throw 'outside) it does.
<phoe>
Oh!
<phoe>
So that's what this passage means.
<phoe>
I got it now.
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
Any exit points between the throw and the catch are "abandoned" in step 1.
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<beach>
And that includes the :loop.
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<beach>
You might find that many existing implementations do not, in fact, abandon it, and that your code "works". Nevertheless it is undefined behavior, and your code won't work in SICL.
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<phoe>
Okay. I understand that now.
<phoe>
Thanks!
<beach>
Great!
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<Fade>
slow morning.
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<phoe>
*afternoon
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<phoe>
beach: minor tidbit, inside my custom DEFCLASS wrapper, should the gensym be created once at macroexpansion time, or each single time at execution time?
<phoe>
Should it be `(let ((gensym (gensym "CLASS-NAME))) ...) or (let ((gensym (gensym "CLASS-NAME"))) `...) ?
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<beach>
I don't think it matters.
<phoe>
I don't think either.
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<phoe>
Is there a format control that prints a space only if there is no preceding whitespace?
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<dlowe>
~t can do that I think
<dlowe>
oh, hm. maybe not.
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<phoe>
One more question - when I define a PRINT-OBJECT method on a CLASS metaobject, what is the correct way to avoid printing behavior like #<#<MY-CLASS 01234> 56789> when printing its instances?
<Bike>
Well, type-of won't return that since it won't work through find-class, so it's not the class's "proper name"
<phoe>
(since the MOP allows arbitrary Lisp data to be class-names, as beach has explained above)
<phoe>
4. For objects of metaclass structure-class or standard-class, and for conditions, type-of returns the proper name of the class returned by class-of if it has a proper name, and otherwise returns the class itself.
<phoe>
yep, it returns the class itself.
<Bike>
you could either ask sbcl to be a little smarter, or my preferred option, define your own print-object method for message-object that prints something nice
<Bike>
where message-object is a superclass of all instances of message-class
<phoe>
Yes, that's what I need to do
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<Bike>
though it might still be annoying if somebody wants to have a different print-object method for a subclass and tries to use print unreadable object
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<phoe>
message-object being a superclass of all instances of message-class...
<shka_>
phoe: why do you want each message to have different class?
<phoe>
hm, one second, let me parse it
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<phoe>
shka_: to have some decent inheritance and define serialization and deserialization as CLOS methods on these classes
<shka_>
can't you simple dispach serialization and deserialization on content of the message?
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<phoe>
shka_: sure I can, and the first element of the message is the indicator of the type of the message
<phoe>
in other words, the class name
<phoe>
so I make an instance of the class name and fill its slots based on the rest of the message
<phoe>
boom, I dispatch serialization/deserialization based on the contents of the message.
<shka_>
I am terribly sorry, i can't follow all the wall of the text today and i am not sure how this relates to message answers we were discussing the other day
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<shka_>
so please, don't mind me
<Bike>
phoe: i.e. like standard-object and standard-class.
<phoe>
Bike: uh, each time you make an instance of standard-class, you get a standard-object, right?
<Bike>
no. every instance of standard-class is a subclass of standard-object, though.
<Bike>
well, okay, you also get an instance of standard-object, but that's not what i'm talking about here.
<phoe>
oh. I got it right then.
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<phoe>
Okay, I got it. Now all I need is a custom DEFMETHOD that accepts these semi-anonymous classes.
<phoe>
...as specializers, that is.
<Bike>
if i were you i'd have it just do your custom lookup and then expand into a defmethod with literal classes
<Bike>
and then define a make-load-form for the classes so that they dump correctly
<phoe>
Oh. Wait a second.
<phoe>
What I did was, I wrapped around DEFCLASS, and temporarily assigned a gensymmed name to the class.
<phoe>
I can do the same thing for DEFMETHOD.
<phoe>
This is ugly as holy hell, blame beach for suggesting this to me.
<phoe>
It's going to be more work, because I need to do a little bit of argument parsing in case of DEFMETHOD, but it should work.
<Bike>
what? you don't need to do... what
<Bike>
i mean for defmethod it should be pretty easy
<Bike>
you can use the parsing functions mop exposes, probably
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<pfdietz>
What fun: (sxhash <some standard object>) ==> 593605263 in CCL
<beach>
Why is that strange?
<Bike>
they're all the same hash, you mean?
<pfdietz>
Yes. That magic number.
* beach
has not looked into sxhash (yet).
<beach>
Oh!
<beach>
Heh!
<Bike>
it's a good number
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<pfdietz>
Was just bitten by this. Of course one can add a slot to the object to store a user-defined hash value. What is really needed is to make sxhash generic so the user can add methods for it.
* beach
takes note.
<Bike>
i think the nice way to do it is to have a generic function that provides fixnums for the hasher to use
<|3b|>
yeah, i think implementation has to store it or return a constant to preserve semantics across change-class etc
<Bike>
i forget the paper with the rationale though
<Bike>
oh yeah, there's that.
<|3b|>
(store the sxhash in the instance i mean)
<beach>
That sounds acceptable.
<pfdietz>
There's something categorical about the relationship between hash functions, equality testing, and copy methods.
<|3b|>
actually, sxhash is defined as EQ for instances of standard-object, so don't even need change-class
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<jasom>
Shinmera: M-. on asdf/uiop symbols doesn't seem to work in portacle; suggestions?
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<Shinmera>
jasom: source paths get baked into fasls absolutely in sbcl :/
<Shinmera>
jasom: Only option is to recompile the file. Should be it $platform/asdf/asdf.lisp
<Shinmera>
*in
<Shinmera>
alternatively, implement source relocation for fasls in SBCL, that'd help me out a lot :)
<|3b|>
compile them with logical pathnames like sbcl source so you can change the physical path :p
<Shinmera>
that doesn't chime well with asdf, and some systems use case-sensitive names, at which point logical pathnames are game over
<|3b|>
yeah, didn't think it was actually a practical solution :(
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<jasom>
Shinmera: thanks!
<jasom>
maybe on launch, portacle could remove all .fasls if the absolute path has changed?
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<_death>
seems bleeding edge usocket on sbcl gives a missing paren error..
<on_ion>
o_o
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<shka_>
_death: it certainly bleeds ;-)
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<_death>
the blood of usocket drowns out all sockets, except bergelsocket and his wife, which boarded their ark.. its flesh becomes the earth, its sweat the oceans, its hair the trees, its brains the clouds, its skull the sky, its bones the rocks, and its eyebrows sockgard..
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<gendl>
yep this looks like the religious answer to that original one.
<on_ion>
hehe. both are great
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<phoe>
live long and prosper
* phoe
goes to sleep
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<clittorbit>
(print hey)
<phoe>
clittorbit: is variable HEY bound?
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<clittorbit>
Ahhh shit
<clittorbit>
(print 'hey)
<clittorbit>
:)
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<phoe>
hey hey (:
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<hellosaw>
Hello, do any of you know any recommended practice of making simultaneous connections to different databases (residing on the same server) using cl-dbi? The idea is to make a single query that refers to different databases. Thank you
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