<flip214>
pillton: https://www.cliki.net/mathematics says COMPUTABLE-REALS - COMPUTABLE-REALS is a Mathematics library for dealing with arbitrary precision reals
<no-defun-allowed>
Effectively, it steps a user through a graph like this one.
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<shka_>
heisig: from what I have seen at the petal repository, you managed to renable native backend, yes?
<no-defun-allowed>
(the main criteria was we had to use a database and present at least three stages. My program has an "initial question" input page, several nodes to traverse, end nodes and an editing mode with basic node validity checking.)
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<no-defun-allowed>
(there's also "backtracking" and it emits graphs like that one. I had too much time last night. :)
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<skeuomorf>
Is there a book like "The algorithm design manual" that uses a lisp/scheme?
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<lieven>
How To Design Programs is a classic Scheme text but it's not specifically algorithm oriented
<skeuomorf>
lieven: I need a book that will go over all the common data structures and algorithms but uses scheme/lisp instead
<skeuomorf>
lieven: HTDP is kinda not that thing
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<beach>
skeuomorf: There is not much that changes in Common Lisp for those data structures.
<beach>
skeuomorf: If you want to, you can ask here and we can show you.
<skeuomorf>
beach: Hmm, I think you kinda missed my point
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<beach>
That's entirely possible.
<skeuomorf>
beach: Imagine the algorithm design manual but terser and with lisp/scheme code examples
<jackdaniel>
skeuomorf: I think that he understood you alright and the point is, that the difference is only syntax which is a superficial thing
<jackdaniel>
data structures with their algorithms doesn't change depending on a language you use
<skeuomorf>
jackdaniel: well, the algorithm design manual has a lot of C-isms in the code that just wastes my time
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<skeuomorf>
jackdaniel: Had it been pseudocode only would've been fine
<jackdaniel>
one could imagine, that implementing some data structures may be simplified thanks to some language features, but it doesn't change the point
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<skeuomorf>
jackdaniel: I am doing this for interviews, so I am short on time, had I enough time, I'd have just crammed through CLRS
<jackdaniel>
I tend to agree that pseudocode written with sexpressions is more readable than pseudocode written with c-ish or pascal-ish syntax
<skeuomorf>
exactly, scheme is better pseudocode than pseudocode IMO
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<jackdaniel>
at ELS in London one presentation was about teaching students with pseudocode written in Common Lisp
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<skeuomorf>
I love common lisp but I think scheme is slightly better for this purpose, just by virtue of being minimal
<jackdaniel>
luckily for me this is common lisp dedicated channel ;-)
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<skeuomorf>
haha, yeah
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<jmercouris>
so if string X can be used to encode a CL pathname, then it is a namestring?
<jmercouris>
if it cannot, then it is not a namestring?
<jackdaniel>
if string represents a filename, then it is a namestring.. but I've pasted that link already
<jmercouris>
I'm not that quick at reading :P
<jackdaniel>
you are quick at asking questions though
<jmercouris>
thanks, I'm a pretty fast typer :P
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<jackdaniel>
you have a scheduling problem: first read the answer, then ask next question; said answer may apply to both questions already
* jackdaniel
gets back to his code before someone will decide that he's rude with his attempts to help
<jmercouris>
relax, I'm not so quick to jump on the "rude" brigade, I understand your frustations with me, and they are valid
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<jmercouris>
you're right, I should read a little bit more before asking clarifying questions
<jmercouris>
make sure I understand before trying to get the next concept
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<pillton>
CL pathnames are weird. It takes a while to understand.
<jmercouris>
yeah, I still don't get em :D
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<pillton>
I personally recommend starting with 19.2.1. Once you understand what a CL pathname can represent then you can worry about strings.
<arbv>
jmercouris: I could say that about many parts of CL. I think that the good thing about the language is that one does not have to understand all of it to be dangerous. It might be a bad thing too, depending on you perspective.
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<arbv>
*your
<papachan>
hi
<papachan>
i have some problem to launch (asdf:test-system 'foo)
<pfdietz>
(experienced some personal acronym overload there)
<skeuomorf>
pfdietz: That's what I meant, that's too esoteric for me right now, I mostly want the same treatment as in the algorithm design manual, perhaps terser, but with pseudocode/dynlang implementations
<skeuomorf>
I don't care very much for the constraint of "purely functional" for my current purposes
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<shidima>
is it possible to use the same value in format more than once? i.e. (format t "Hello ~A ~A ~A" "world")
<beach>
That would have been unusual. When I lived in Auckland, there were only a few lispers within a radius defined by a 3 hour flight.
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<shka_>
such unfortunate country
<didi>
shka_: It could be worse: many lispers. /me shivers
<pfdietz>
Which countries are lisp-enriched?
<pfdietz>
I get the impression Ukraine is one such.
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<jkordani>
US checking in
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<dlowe>
US has a bunch of lispers, but a low density
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<dlowe>
Hungary has quite a few :)
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<TMA>
poland
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<jcowan>
The NYC lisp meetup draws 30-40 people normally, unless a rockstar is speaking
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<jcowan>
and that's CL, Scheme, Clojure, and Elisp
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<Xach>
one out of every sixty people in my town is a lisper.
<dlowe>
Xach: haha
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<beach>
Xach: Let me guess, the population is 60?
<Xach>
that is a very good guess
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* beach
had a look at it on Google maps some time ago.
<varjag>
should it be possible to build sbcl using ecl?
<Xach>
Hmm, I have a large grassy field and a large mower, I should make something Lisp-themed for future satellite views.
<beach>
Yes, a lizard maybe.
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<Xach>
I might go with a large-scale empty list for ease of design
<shka_>
lispa alien :-)
<Xach>
()
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<beach>
Aww, to easy.
<jackdaniel>
varjag: in theory yes, in practice it doesn't work (ECL errored on something last time I've tried, most likely a bug)
<varjag>
i see
<varjag>
was thinking to make an openembedded/yocto recipe for sbcl, but not sure how to build it without binary host package
<jackdaniel>
last time I've tried bootstrapping from clisp worked just fine
<jackdaniel>
so you may pursue that
<varjag>
oh, clisp
<varjag>
thanks, i'll have a look
<pfdietz>
Debian builds sbcl using clisp, right?
<varjag>
no idea
<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: I think that after building sbcl first time from clisp they depend on older sbcl version from their repositories
<pfdietz>
They have a requirement that things be buildable by some chain of tools starting with just a C compiler, if I recall correctly.
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<jackdaniel>
yes, and some ancient version of sbcl in dependency tree was built that way. that requirement doesn't mean that you have to rebuild from C every time
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<jcowan>
ghc and Chicken Scheme are compilers-to-C, so they are bootstrapped by providing pre-translated versions of the compiler with each release. If you want to build from git, you need an installed compiler to do so, and binaries for common environments are provided for the bootstrap.
<jcowan>
(at least for Chicken, I don't know about ghc)
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<dlowe>
do you mean ghc or gcl?
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<shka_>
good evening
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<jcowan>
dlowe: ghc, the Glorious Haskell Compiler
<v0|d>
glasgow?
<v0|d>
:)
<jcowan>
used to be
<jcowan>
too many folks left Glasgow
<v0|d>
for fb :p
<dlowe>
huh. I always thought ghc was to the cpu.
<dlowe>
gcl and ecl are also compilers-to-C
<Bike>
there's that "C--" thing
<v0|d>
llvm backnd?
<v0|d>
ghc has one I guess.
<v0|d>
ecl is to gcc.
<dlowe>
C-- is a good idea, except it completely misses the point that C is ubiquitous and C-- isn't.
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<jasom>
dlowe: you just need a C-- to C compiler then; that solves the problem
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<dlowe>
of course!
<pfdietz>
Everything is supposed to translate to Javascript these days, right?
<dlowe>
webasm
<jackdaniel>
v0|d: to C, not GCC, it works with other C compilers
<v0|d>
jackdaniel: lol.
<jackdaniel>
as of C-- it has one clear adventage over C - function has access to its callstack
<jackdaniel>
v0|d: why lol?
<dlowe>
I wish I had time to dig into webasm compilers
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<didi>
This is curious. If I eval (print-unreadable-object (42 t :type t :identity t)), SBCL prints `#<(INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903) {54}>', but if I eval (print-unreadable-object (42 t :type t :identity t) t) (notice the `t' inside body), SBCL prints `#<(INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903) {54}>': there is an additional space.
<neirac>
I'm trying to use lquery, https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery but I don't understand how to select class=myclass objects, is there someone with experience in that library ?
<jcowan>
C-- is pretty much dead except for use in ghc, though
<jcowan>
At one point I was designing an Algol 60 compiler to gcc specifically to exploit gcc's support for nested functions, but then I found there were existing A60 implementations and I didn't proceed further
<Bike>
didi: so it does. the code seems to put in the extra space sometimes based on whether the p-u-o has a body.
<didi>
Bike: Interesting.
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<jasom>
Hmm C-- looks like a better basis for a lisp than llvm, as GC, including GC of code appears to be something it is intended to support from the beginning.
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<didi>
Bike: As I'm printing a slot of an object if this slot is bound, I'm wrapping `print-unreadable-object' with `(if (slot-boundp x 'slot) ...)' so I avoid the extra space.
<Bike>
kidn of annoying to have to do, unfortunately
<didi>
Oh, well.
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<rpg>
SBCL doesn't like ~@5A in format strings, and points me at ANSI section 22.3, but when I look at that it seems like this is explicitly permitted. What am I missing?
<Bike>
shouldn't it be ~5@a?
<rpg>
This is the paragraph that puzzles me: "~mincolA inserts spaces on the right, if necessary, to make the width at least mincol columns. The @ modifier causes the spaces to be inserted on the left rather than the right."
<sjl>
yeah, the @/: have to come right before the final character
<rpg>
Bike, sjl : Thanks! The wording in there is *seriously* unclear.
<sjl>
> A directive consists of a tilde, optional prefix parameters separated by commas, optional colon and at-sign modifiers, and a single character indicating what kind of directive this is.
<Bike>
a grammar might have been nice
<didi>
The order of @ and : doesn't matter, tho. (/me wanted to show off recently acquired knowledge)
<rpg>
Especially since they say: "the colon modifier (~:A)..." in the same section, which ... is completely unhelpful
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<didi>
I wish I could kill and yank objects from a list in SLIME...
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<LdBeth>
z
<no-defun-allowed>
LdBeth: y
<LdBeth>
just a test, I was kicked out
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<rpg>
Has anyone done a slime screencast recently? Coworker would like one...
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* jcowan
wishes you could introduce superclasses for existing classes in the cl package
<jcowan>
or at least existing standard-classes
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<pjb>
While the order of : and @ doesn't matter in format specifiers, since the functions called by ~/ take as argument: (stream object colon-p at-sign-p &rest parameters) with the : and @ parameters in that order, and since ~:@ is nicer than ~@: I would advise to always write the colon before the at-sign.
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<luis>
rpg: I suspect Marco Baringer's screencast is still the gold standard.
<rpg>
luis: Thanks! That was my guess, too.
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<luis>
rpg: Baggers has a bunch of Lisp videos on YouTube, but none seem SLIME-specific. But I haven't watched them, so I could have missed it.
<rpg>
I'll pass that on to my colleague.
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<no-defun-allowed>
~:@ is cuter
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<no-defun-allowed>
meh, no more school projects now
<greenb>
Object systems with encapsulation readily conform to a capabilities-based security model. Can CLOS do anything similar? (I'd assume not because it doesn't have encapsulation and generic functions aren't owned by the class which they affect) Is there a way to add security to CL, or is it not supported because it was standardized before the Internet became big?
<jasom>
greenb: adding security to a turing complete language is non-trivial
<White_Flame>
beach is doing first-class environments, which would limit visibility of objects
<jasom>
but beach is... White_Flame said it
<White_Flame>
the only practical way to do standard data hiding is closures, but implementation specifics can probably still drill down into those
<White_Flame>
let-over-lambda plays a lot with that sort of design
<jasom>
greenb: and any setup that gives access to low-level memory primitives can escape any runtime-level sandbox
<greenb>
jasom: But it can be done. Take a look at the E language, for example.
<White_Flame>
jasom: well, such a thing would be in the secure portions of the sandbox ;)
<greenb>
White_Flame: First-class environments? Like Shutt's Kernel?
<jasom>
greenb: It was not done in E
<jasom>
greenb: E was designed from the groupd up for security; security wasn't bolted on
<White_Flame>
greenb: just googled, probably
<jasom>
s/groupd/ground/
<greenb>
But it was a secure Turing complete language.
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<jasom>
CL's design is almost antithetical to security, but beach's first class global environments would make it tractible.
<jasom>
greenb: that being said, it's possible to implement message-passing OO with CLOS
<jasom>
e.g. (defmethod send (o (eql 'method1) &rest args) ...)
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<greenb>
jasom: But that's just syntactic sugar. If you wanted, you could go back to calling generic functions.
<jasom>
greenb: not if those generic functions don't exist...
<rpg>
jasom: Howie Shrobe had an interesting paper in the ILC about using CLOS to create protected objects for security. But to actually provide security that way, you'd have to control access to the lisp environment.
<pjb>
jasom: just remove FFI.
<greenb>
jasom: Aren't the slots open regardless?
<pjb>
and disable safety 0.
<jasom>
yes, the slots are open regardless, though you might be able to do something fancy with the metaobject protocol
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<jasom>
actually, if you delete the package that the slot names are defined in, that should make them unacessible from any new code.
<greenb>
For what it's worth, even JS can do capabilities - Google's Caja project is one of the few JS projects which looks interesting in any way.
<greenb>
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