jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<ealfonso`> I want to mock a function like drakma:http-request within a unit test. Can I use flet? It seems that the scope of my flet binding is lexical, can I make it dynamic?
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<ealfonso`> does this gist mean I would have to implement it myself? https://gist.github.com/jasom/04606c9e418aee6f969c8b1fdf69ba68
<oni-on-ion> (setf (function ..)) ?
<beach> oni-on-ion: FDEFINITION rather than FUNCTION.
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<oni-on-ion> ah ty! i was scrolling up feeling certain i seen something else in use #here very recently
<beach> ealfonso`: Yes, there is no standard way of creating a function with dynamic extent. If you do it with a macro that changes the FDEFINITION, then make sure you have an UNWIND-PROTECT that sets it back.
<ealfonso`> oni-on-ion beach Thanks
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<loke> oni-on-ion: Also note that you really don't want to be running more than one thread while doing that trick.
<loke> Setting the FDEFINITION of a function is not thread-safe, I don't think.
<loke> (also, it will impact globally)
<oni-on-ion> ah! good to know. set'fing fdefs is something i would do
<oni-on-ion> i'd feel more comfortable doing one lisp image per OS thread
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<loke> oni-on-ion: You can implement it by having a single constant replaced version of the function in question, and you setf the fdefinition of it in the beginning. Then, inside that function you check a thread-local binding of a variable that indicates which version you want and if it's unset, just forward the call to the real (original) version.
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<loke> That way you can make your reassignment thread-local.
<beach> Clever.
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<loke> I just remembered I did something similar in Climaxima when I want to change the behaviour of some internal Maxima functions
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<DecimPrime> has anyone read HTDP?
<beach> No, but it looks like I should.
<beach> DecimPrime: Though, people here are less likely to read that book than they are to read books like PAIP, AMOP etc., since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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<DecimPrime> beach: hah. ahh i see. i'm mostly using clojure but i just heard it was great for learning how to break down and solve problems so i'm going to look through it
<beach> I look forward to your report. :)
<DecimPrime> lol will do
<DecimPrime> i have PAIP as well. at some point i'll get to it
<DecimPrime> actually that will be nex
<DecimPrime> next*
<beach> DecimPrime: I am guessing the Scheme books are more for beginners.
<beach> DecimPrime: And I am guessing the advocate a more "pure" style of programming, like more functional programming, more recursion, etc.
<beach> The Common Lisp books are typically more pragmatic. And modern Common Lisp uses object-oriented programming (using CLOS) a lot.
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<beach> I say this without having read "How To Design Programs", of course. So just guessing.
<no-defun-allowed> I'm going to try and write a simple genetic development algorithm today.
<no-defun-allowed> I want to find some inputs to imagemagick that will help me clean up captchas to give to tesseract-ocr. They have added noise that needs to be filtered out.
<oni-on-ion> i was just reading about the first FPGA chips and how they were 'evolved' (1960s)
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<jcowan> beach: HDTP teaches elementary computer *programming*, whereas SICP teaches elementary computer *science*. Both of them use Scheme because of its simplicity and closeness to mathematical notation.
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<theemacsshibe> hi, no-defun-allowed here
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<theemacsshibe> god damn freenode cloaks sound hard to get
<jcowan> (Neither book is intended to teach Scheme.)
<theemacsshibe> yes, neither HTDP and SICP go into much scheme past what is necessary
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<beach> jcowan: I see, yes.
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<beach> jcowan: Still, my guess is that the programming style is going to be influenced by the convictions of the authors. But I should quit guessing and read the book instead.
<theemacsshibe> for example, call-cc and macros aren't touched on since they don't really do much for the first few chapters
<jcowan> Well, certainly. Indeed, I know of no textbooks whatsoever that are not influenced by the convictions of their authors1
<jcowan> s/1/!
<theemacsshibe> SICP taught me a lot about lisp. it's a very dense book.
<theemacsshibe> MIT released recordings of the relevant lectures, too. each is an hour long in three 20-minute segments.
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<DecimPrime> jcowan: i see. i had and liked what i read of SICP. someone stole my book. i'll have to finish it off later on.
<DecimPrime> jcowan: but you'd say HDTP as far as getting comfortable getting things done
<jcowan> Again, it's about *elementary* programming. The authors found that SICP gave insufficient attention to the problem of learning to produce a formalism that represents an informal intention.
<DecimPrime> ok...i'll read both
<jcowan> It's analogous to the problem of figuring out proofs of theorems in geometry.
<beach> I am no longer sure what the best way is to teach introductory programming.
<jcowan> Elementary geometry courses teach geometry, but leave finding proofs to intuition.
<DecimPrime> i've toyed with several languages...self taught but never got into meat of completing something. largely because i felt i've missed out on breaking things apart...which lisp in its self has helped out a lot with
<jcowan> which is kind of like teaching singing by saying "Sing!" and then trying to help the people who sing -- it does nothing for the people who don't.
<beach> There are a certain number of books that claim to do that, but in fact, many of them are hailed by colleagues with decades of experience as being exactly what is needed, but they make no sense whatsoever to the intended audience.
<DecimPrime> hmm good way of putting it
<jcowan> I am not necessarily defending HTDP, as I have not read it either, just explaining what I understand its purpose to be.
<DecimPrime> that seems to be about what i'm aiming for
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<beach> jcowan: Math is taught the same way. Students are shown lots of proofs, but no way of coming up with their own. They are supposed to generalize from examples.
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<jcowan> I very much like Polya's _How to solve it_ in this connection
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<DecimPrime> oh yeah? i have that on my list of books to buy
<jcowan> I am also reminded of my one-week course in ODEs during my first calculus class
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<jcowan> It went something like this:
<beach> minion: What does ODE stand for?
<minion> Ostracum Dom Endocervicitis
<jcowan> Ordinary differential equations
<beach> Thanks.
<jcowan> "The first and best way to solve ODEs is to guess the answer and see if it's right. If this fails, integrate both sides if you know how. Otherwise go to the Taylor expansion. If you can't solve it by any of these means, you probably can't solve it at all."
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<DecimPrime> hmm
<slightlycyborg> Do you know of anyone wanting to hire a junior CL programmer?
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<oni-on-ion> ehe
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<theemacsshibe> yay my genetic algorithm is working!
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<no-defun-allowed> unfortunately it seems my combination of tesseract and imagemagick switches only gets 2/5 chars right
<lucca> There are more techniques for integration than grains of sand in all the beaches of all the worlds of the galaxy. Finding them is left as an exercise for the reader.
<LdBeth> j​ust found a really interesting thing https://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:256466/FULLTEXT03.pdf
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<no-defun-allowed> well the genetic algorithm gets tesseract-ocr very close
<no-defun-allowed> just one char off was the best case
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<splittist> mornin' all y'all
<shka_> good morning
<no-defun-allowed> hi splittist
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<ringer1> gm
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<beach> Hello splittist.
<beach> splittist: Are you planning to come to Genoa?
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<splittist> Strongly intending. What are the dates again?
<beach> April 1 and 2.
<beach> Monday and Tuesday.
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<LdBeth> Just wandering what haven’t been done in Lisp
<beach> "wondering"?
<LdBeth> *yeah
<no-defun-allowed> not very much i'd imagine
<beach> This one remains to work on if you feel like it: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf
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<beach> The other day, jackdaniel showed me this PDF of some slides from a talk by Rob Pike: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/utah2000.pdf
<beach> Perhaps some people will think I am less crazy for suggesting CLOSOS when they see that even very famous people think that it's a good idea to attempt to create new operating systems.
<LdBeth> I just read about IBM’s M44 virtual machine approach
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<LdBeth> Which is about running multiple virtual machine while sharing resources
<beach> There was a lot of innovation back then, and, as Rob Pike admits, Unix killed all innovation.
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<DecimPrime> funny you all are more active than #clojure
<beach> Funny?
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<DecimPrime> =P well CL has been around for much longer. but still yes suprised it's so lively at this hour
<beach> It slows down during the weekend. I suspect many people here have a real life as well.
<jdz> People have been around planet earth, and it's indeed funny how they're still active.
<jackdaniel> DecimPrime: it could be because world doesn't have only one timezone
<DecimPrime> nah thats not it...lol
<DecimPrime> i have insomnia so i like to talk to people fom europe etc...they're up but still not as lively in certain rooms
<jackdaniel> you mean, that there is universal hour people are active all around the globe?
<DecimPrime> i mean i'm awake 20 hours and on all throughout the day
<DecimPrime> i'm univesal to everyones time zone lol
<beach> DecimPrime: #lisp is know to be active, and also very helpful, even to newbies (provided they take the advice they are given).
<jackdaniel> that's unhealthy, you should reconsider such short sleep hours
<DecimPrime> beach: so i've heard
<DecimPrime> jackdaniel: yeah
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<shka_> yo
<shka_> is there anything already to work with parquet files in cl?
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<loke> shka_: what's that?
<shka_> loke: binary format used to store big data on hdfs
<loke> What is hdfs?
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<beach> minion: what does hdfs stand for?
<minion> Hypophonic Dermapterous Feminility Scarved
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<shka_> loke: hadoop distributed file system
<shka_> and don't ask me about hadoop
<shka_> it is not a pokemon though
<shka_> even if it sounds like it is
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* edgar-rft has already worked with parquet tiles but isn't sure if that really helps
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<antoszka> ha
<antoszka> przepraszam
<antoszka> I mean, excuse me.
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<shrdlu68> There's a CRC32 opcode for x86. Any chance I can use it in SBCL?
<shka_> shrdlu68: yup
<shrdlu68> Thanks.
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<flip214> shrdlu68: please provide patches to sbcl-devel!
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<flip214> is anybody using uLisp on a ESP8266 CH340G (NodeMCU v3)?
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<jcowan> beach: I may have mentioned this before, but a good object store should have knowledge of which properties subsume which other properties, which allows the easy recovery of flexible hierarchies.
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<beach> jcowan: Makes sense. Sounds like inheritance to me.
<jcowan> Indeed
<jcowan> There is a filesystem that works like this called, I think, LPFS
<beach> Oh, OK.
<beach> The object store for CLOSOS is still very preliminary thinking.
<jcowan> If property A subsumes property B, then (treating them wlg as binary properties) anything with B but not A is treated as a direct child of B, whereas anything with both A and B is treated as a direct child of A. Posix operations mkdir and rmdir establish and disestablish subsumption.
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<jcowan> (Hmm, that may be wrong; I tend to get A subsumes B and B subsumes A mixed up, but it is correct modulo that.)
<flip214> jcowan: shouldn't that be "link" and "rm" to create/remove such links?
<jcowan> no
<jcowan> there are no links as such in this system
<jcowan> not that there is anything wrong with links, the idea is to make a directory structure fall out of the meta-information about properties
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<jcowan> if we are examining the contributors to a paper using our object store, then we see all the contributors listed under the node "contributor". If we then add the information that Alice and Bob are authors, Charlie is an editor, and we do not know what kind of contributor Dave is, we will see three parallel nodes 'author', 'editor', contributor', whose children are Alice + Bob, Charlie, Alice + Bob + Charlie + Dave respectively.
<jcowan> But if we now add the metainformation that author and editor are subproperties of contributor, then things change: under contributor we still see Dave, but we also see subdirectories author and editor.
<jcowan> which are no longer direct children of the paper
<flip214> jcowan: I meant the "links" not as in filesystem links, but as parent-child relationships; you wrote "mkdir" and "rmdir" operations, but don't see how "mkdir" can register a connection between two already existing things
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<jcowan> The effect of mkdir(A, B) is that directory B becomes a child of directory A. The fact that a directory cannot be the child of more than one directory is due to the problems early Unix encountered with an arbitrary directory graph (it needs memory to traverse and potentially a garbage collector to eliminate or restore closed loops).
<jcowan> These issues are now pushed off onto the batch tool fsck, but in a Lisp OS they should be and are an inherent part of the system.
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<jcowan> Likewise, rmdir removes the parent-child relationship between two directories, and only destroys the former child because it knows that there is no other parent.
<jcowan> In a general subproperty graph this is not true.
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<flip214> jcowan: yeah, but your example had _preexisting_ things - contributor and author - and for that _my_ view would be "link author contributor/" to establish an "is a" relationship
<jcowan> Properties are lightweight: there is no reason to distinguish between creation and reuse.
<jcowan> Something I am shoving under the rug is that Posix file graphs have named edges, whereas this one has named nodes. However, people almost always treat Posix files as if they had names.
<jcowan> (a property is fundamentally just a symbol)
<jcowan> s/names/absolute names
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<shrdlu68> What is the use of declaration ftype?
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<Bike> declaring the types of functions
<shrdlu68> is it different from type declaration of function arguments?
<Bike> yes. declaring the types of arguments in a function tells the compiler what those variables in the function body will be. declaring the type of a function tells the compiler what the types of inputs to and outputs from a function call are.
<shrdlu68> Does one need type declarations for arguments if there's an ftype declaration?
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<Bike> an implementation might use one for the other. i think sbcl does.
<shrdlu68> Would ftype declaration make a difference if the function is inlined?
<Bike> it could sure
<flip214> jcowan: CLOSOS talks about attributes, which have a value
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<LdBeth> Interesting, I thought object oriented access control was a new idea
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<LdBeth> But I never knew someone had a patent on it
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<jcowan> flip214: attributes = propertiesf
<splittist> LdBeth: if it was filed in 1997 won't it have expired?
<jcowan> yes, unless there is a submarine patent for some minor extension
<shka_> good evening
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<beach> Hello shka_.
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<frodef> 'evening
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<beach> Hello frodef. Ju just showed up when my (admittedly small) family announced that dinner is ready.
<frodef> bon appetit!
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<LdBeth> splittist: that’s a good news
<LdBeth> beach: what do you think about integrating object oriented access control? The basic principle is given here http://www.object-oriented-security.org
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<stylewarning> the industry is leaking lisp again https://github.com/rigetticomputing/rpcq
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<Josh_2> Nice
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<beach> LdBeth: Thanks for the link. I am too tired to read it today, but I'll have a look tomorrow. I may have to be reminded.
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<LdBeth> Good to hear that
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<shka_> uh
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<shka_> isn't that, well reasonable way to do?
<shka_> anyway, i have a design question
<shka_> i have a object
<shka_> it has a class
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<shka_> and fulfills protocol
<shka_> i have other object, it full fills the same protocol, but it happens to have file that should be closed
<shka_> i have functions that create proxy objects
<shka_> now i lost way to close my file, because proxy can't implement every possible functions
<shka_> i have the following solutions in mind
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<shka_> 1) add auto forwarding into proxy (default implementation of generic function will call something like pass-along with it's arguments and the right function so proxy won't have to be bothered with it)
<shka_> 2) some sort of taint (everything that touches file object produces proxy object that also will be file object
<shka_> )
<shka_> which one looks better to you guys?
<LdBeth> I would avoid 2
<shka_> LdBeth: care to explain why?
<LdBeth> Don’t create things you don’t need. ;)
<shka_> that's fair point
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<shka_> well, i personally prefer 1 anyway
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<frodef> LdBeth: not much to read on that "OO security" site..
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<frodef> ..if security is based on "having a references implies having permission", you need to know how to prevent attackers from guessing/construction references.
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<jcowan> well, it depends; if security depends on guessing a well-chosen random number of sufficient bits, then probabilistically it is secure, though someone could land on the number by sheer chance
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<frodef> jcowan: "guessing" in all likelihood means some heuristics that includes scanning all available memory.
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<jcowan> Well, yes, if you have access to memory below the object level, then of course there is no security. That's like saying "I can open any lock if I can scan all the keys in the world to get their shapes."
<frodef> Well, if you don
<didi> I need ideas on how to deal with symbols from other packages. I dislike prefixing symbols with their packages, but some packages define symbols with the same name, so I can't import them all.
<frodef> 't have access "below object level" then you have some other security mechanism..
<frodef> didi: IMPORT-FROM ?
<didi> frodef: Indeed. But what if two different packages define the same name of a symbol?
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<frodef> didi: define-symbol-macro ?
<frodef> ..could be used to make symbol "aliases", I suppose?
<didi> frodef: Maybe `define-symbol-macro'? I don't know it.
<didi> frodef: Thank you.
<didi> What about (setf (symbol-function foo) package:foo)?
<didi> Well, more like (setf (symbol-function bar) package:foo) because supposedly I already have a FOO inside.
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<didi> Or maybe I can shorten package names?
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<frodef> didi: that means importing a function object, not really a symbol as such. It won
<frodef> 't work for macros, compiler-macros, varibables, etc.
<didi> frodef: Hum.
<frodef> (new keyboard, sorry)
<didi> Shame! /me rings bell
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<didi> Maybe I can rename packages?
<didi> So really.long.package.name:function turns to rlpn:function.
<jcowan> Adding a nickname would probably be better
<antoszka> You can nickname packages.
<antoszka> Yeah.
<didi> Uh, it sounds nice.
<didi> I'll search for it, thanks.
<pjb> (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :really.long.package.name :rlpn)
<pjb> (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :really.long.package.name :rlpn :steal t :force t) ;-)
<antoszka> clhs defpackage
<antoszka> didi: ↑ it's right there, :NICKNAMES
<didi> antoszka: Thank you.
<frodef> someone wrote a library for dealing better with packages like this, but I forget what it's called..?
<pjb> Yes, but you cannot use it in library code!
<pjb> In code that you publish.
<pjb> You can use short nicknames only in final user's code.
<pjb> unpublished.
<dlowe> also look into package-local-nicknames
<dlowe> supported by lisp implementations everywhere
<dlowe> (not actually everywhere)
<frodef> packages is really one aspect of CL that should be better.
<dlowe> package-local-nicknames solve all my complaints, except that we don't have a culture of long package names so their use is somewhat limited
<White_Flame> frodef: Most will agree
<didi> I dislike prefixing symbols with their packages because it feels like a less tight system. Maybe I just need to get used to it.
<pjb> more often you just have to qualify symbols just because of name collisions.
<didi> Indeed.
<pjb> notably when people use short symbols, such as name instead of enterprise-name person-name car-name horse-name.
<dlowe> didi: I regularly nickname cl-ppcre with just re now. re:split doesn't seem too bad
<dlowe> package local nicknames allow you to make *really* short nicknames
<didi> dlowe: True.
<pjb> (horse-name *daddy*) -> "Dada" (person-name *daddy*) -> "John Wayne" (enterprise-name *daddy*) -> "Short Movies, Inc"
<dlowe> so that qualification isn't as much of a burden
<pjb> (com.informatimago.life.play.hu-dada-play:name *daddy*) (com.informatimago.life.etat-civil.usa:name *daddy*) -> "John Wayne" etc.
<White_Flame> pjb: have you find that anybody else uses the java-style package naming, or is it pretty much only informatimago?
<pjb> There are several others.
<pjb> I understand americans are handicaped with long words… Not so much in Europe.
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<pjb> I could have created the domain name com.man.who.do.tricks.of.act.of.riting.text.for.thing.that.add.things.used.to.count.life.play.…
<pjb> Ah, perhaps not.
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<pjb> that said, I never had a name collision, contrarly to authors (more than 2!) of clon…
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<no-defun-allowed> Good morning
<didi> Hum. Nicknames seems like a good compromise.
<didi> Thank you all.
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<LdBeth> I guess to use the java style naming first one needs to own a domain
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<LdBeth> frodef: if you mean binary level security, you can do exploit to UNX style ACL too, but ACL is centralized and object oriented access control is distributed in memory, so in that case it still has superior security level
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<LdBeth> Not to mention the memory randomize technique widely used today
<aeth> Idk, long packages are very inconvenient at the REPL. I know because I have a bunch of long package names
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<aeth> And the worst part is that tab completion doesn't help much because the packages are hierarchical based on the directory structure.
<aeth> It looks like my longest is 40 characters long.
<no-defun-allowed> SLIME's prompt splits the name on the last dot, so VEP.CPU becomes CPU
<no-defun-allowed> That kind of mechanism would make a good autocomplete/expand target
<aeth> Unfortunately, they don't do that for /s
<aeth> ASDF gets mad if you don't use /s iirc
<aeth> foo/bar/baz as the package for foo/bar/baz.lisp (or for foo/bar/baz/package.lisp depending on your conventions)
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<Shinmera> package-inferred-systems are bad for that, and several other reasons.
<aeth> They're not that bad, I just have the style rule that you can :use cl and any other internal-to-the-project package.
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<aeth> Then it's only annoying when you want to e.g. (disassemble #'foobar-baz/some-dir/some-file::private-function) from the REPL
<aeth> Although if you're doing that often enough it's probably best to just switch into that file's package.
<Shinmera> they're bad because they conflate public interface (packages) with internal structure (files)
<aeth> The packages don't have to be the actually public interface. That's only if you :use-reexport via uiop:define-package
<aeth> You could have an "internal" file/package by simply using it in the uiop:define-package instead of use-rexporting it afaik
<Shinmera> tying packages to files is a bad idea no matter what.
<Shinmera> because it conflates two concepts
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<aeth> It depends on the size of the project. I wouldn't want to work in any very large project that did *not* use package-inferred-system, but it's probably overkill if the project fits into a single (reasonable) directory (obviously any project can be in one directory).
<Shinmera> Well I would not want to work with any system that uses p-i-s ever.
<aeth> Once you get to very many directories and very many files, the lines get blurred. At that point, it's pretty convenient to just be able to load the system zombie-raptor/math or zombie-raptor/util
<aeth> Could those be spun off into their own separate projects? Maybe. But they didn't start that way.
<aeth> Having a directory package and system is very convenient for very large projects. The thing about CL is that there aren't many very large projects.
<Shinmera> I have several very large projects and I especially see p-i-s as a tremendously bad thing for those
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<aeth> I'd hate to have to try to maintain a project where there are dozens of .lisp files at the top level working in one package. The relationship between the files would be incredibly unclear.
* didi hides his projects from aeth
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<Shinmera> That's because the files represent internal structure, not relations.
<aeth> This looks like a lot more of a maintenance nightmare to me than p-i-s. https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/4ec570466be2f749105beb97482116f80ff56ef2/package.lisp
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<Shinmera> What's the problem
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<aeth> I would much rather have the exports from a given file at the top of the file. Yes, there would be issues if foo.lisp exports some things only for other files and some things for the global package. But if that's necessary, that file alone could be special cased in the main package's export list. Everything else would just be :use-reexport
<Shinmera> Again, the internal structure does not reflect the external interface
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<aeth> But files themselves can have external interfaces that are internal from the perspective of the main package and system!
<aeth> You don't have to :use-reexport everything!
<Shinmera> I never said one had to
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<Shinmera> Packages are a global, public interface. There are no anonymous or internal packages.
<aeth> That's a convention.
<Shinmera> No, that's a fact
<Shinmera> Tying them to files means you lose the ability to use multiple files that would allow you to structure your internal mechanisms more apropriately compared to the visible interface
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<aeth> If you want to use my game engine as a unit, use zombie-raptor. If you want to use my math system as a unit, use zombie-raptor/math, if you want to use my vectors as a unit use zombie-raptor/math/vector. But everything in zombie-raptor/math/vector doesn't have to be part of the interface of zombie-raptor/math or zombie-raptor (although in that case, it probably makes sense that they are)
<Shinmera> If they're separate libraries then make them actually separate libraries. This is not an argument for anything.
<aeth> They're not necessarily separate libraries. Consider zombie-raptor/data/generate-glsl, which generates GLSL strings from s-expressions. This is very closely tied to zombie-raptor/data/shader. If I wanted to (and I probably should), only zombie-raptor/data/shader needs the full access to the exports of zombie-raptor/data/generate-glsl so zombie-raptor/data should only export a few symbols from zombie-raptor/data/generate-glsl.
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<aeth> And since zombie-raptor/all use-reexports from zombie-raptor/data, it would also only export a few symbols from that file.
<jmercouris> aeth: are these all part off the same project/folder? why not break them apart
<jmercouris> I've noticed some older lispers have massive systems and images that have grown, why this tendency?
<didi> I keep adding utility functions to my system.
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<aeth> jmercouris: Why break it apart, though? A massive project's a massive project, and it's incredibly modular as it is even though it's all one project. And I try to keep it small! My game engine doesn't even load textures, it just assumes the user loads or generates textures in a compatible format.
<jmercouris> aeth: No reason to break it apart, I'm actually asking a different question, "when should I break something apart into a library"?
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<aeth> jmercouris: If you use package-inferred-system then there is basically no difference between a directory and a library. I can just (ql:quickload :zombie-raptor/math) and only load that. Most of my projects use zombie-raptor/util at this point.
<aeth> In that case, the time to break something apart is when you wind up using just that part everywhere, like I'm doing with my util directory. Except, unfortunately, it's not all generally useful so I'd have to move out only the generally useful parts.
<jmercouris> interesting thoughts
<jmercouris> I've been also thinking about breaking apart many of my util functions from one of my caveman projects and turning it into a new system
<aeth> jmercouris: But even if you don't use p-i-s, the time to break something apart is when you want to use Foo/Bar elsewhere half a dozen times but don't care about the rest of Foo.
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<aeth> Math, DSL, and util parts are probably the most likely to be useful elsewhere
<aeth> But, going back to the separate libraries thing, the problem is that the directories aren't really independent from each other in my game engine. Most assume certain parts of the engine, just different parts. Only zombie-raptor/util has (by design) 0 dependencies from other directories.
<aeth> If I spun off zombie-raptor/math I'd have to spin off zombie-raptor/util first. And most of the rest would be considerably more complicated than that.
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<jmercouris> I see
<aeth> I actually wonder if I did the wrong thing by starting at zombie-raptor
<jmercouris> you don't like the name?
<aeth> I probably should just put everything in one giant monorepo
<aeth> everything/zombie-raptor/util
<aeth> Then it would be a lot easier to move util to everything/util
<jmercouris> Oh, I see what you mean
<aeth> Having separate repos make me hestiate way more than I should to split things into their own projects
<aeth> With a monorepo there'd be no hestiation to split
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<_death> you can use git-subtree
<aeth> of course, if I had a monorepo I'd probably be thinking about how great it would be to have separate repos
<aeth> _death: does it preserve history, though?
<_death> yes
<aeth> interesting
<oni-on-ion> i chose monorepo and i still feel better about it
<aeth> because the issue is moving all-my-cl-projects/foo/bar into all-my-cl-projects/bar and losing all the history from when it was foo/bar
<aeth> Probably not the biggest deal since the original repo is still there, but a bit problematic
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<aeth> Shinmera: You have hundreds of projects. Do you ever deal with splitting A/B from project A into a new project B?
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<_death> I have a snippets repository, which contains hundreds of small (usually <500loc) programs.. for that package-inferred-systems works well..
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<_death> when a program gets big enough, or too useful, I pull it out into its own project
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<_death> some snippets depend on other snippets, and that's no problem.. non-snippet projects should not depend on snippets though
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<Shinmera> aeth: Sure, it has happened. Though typically I plan my projects in such a way that I write the libraries first and they're already separate as a result.
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<sjl> git subtree can split a subdirectory into its own repository (preserving history) really easily. If the thing you're trying to split isn't isolated to one directory (e.g. it has a .asd file at the monorepo root) you'll have to use git filter-branch, which is less friendly.
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<aeth> sjl: With package-inferred-system the system definition is implicit
<sjl> I thought you still needed a system definition with that? I thought it was just useful for not having to list out the :components?
<sjl> I might be wrong, I've never really used it much.
<sjl> meeting, brb
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<aeth> iirc what winds up being the most convenient is having a foo.lisp for every directory foo that consists of a package that uses every file in foo. Then you get foobar/foo in addition to foobar/foo/bar and foobar/foo/baz
<aeth> (You also want to use CL so you can in-package, but that's not required)
<_death> I also have a site "monorepo", which contains multiple services.. for that package-inferred-systems works well too. in simple "library" projects, package-inferred-systems has less advantage, and so some use it and others do not.
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<aeth> If it fits in / or /src/ then it's overkill
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<_death> most of my repositories are flat or have few directories
<_death> I do have a repository called "sehnsucht" with old ass projects from 20-10 years ago, with each having its own dir :D
<_death> but I don't really touch that
<oni-on-ion> im actively cleaning up my garbage .. trying to
<jcowan> ldbeth: you can fall back in the Java convention from a domain to an email address: org.ccil.cowan is what I use, reflecting my email cowan@ccil.org
<oni-on-ion> going to put all 'old' projects into an 'attic' and freeze it. bringing current stuff more to the forefront
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<jmercouris> why do some people use one package per file?
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<LdBeth> Can you give an example?
<LdBeth> Maybe affected by experience using other programming languages
<LdBeth> It’s definitely not idiomatic
<jmercouris> How do you know it is not idiomatic?
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<jmercouris> Eitaro is a very experienced lisp programmer
<jmercouris> things like that simply do not happen by accident
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<LdBeth> Cause I believe old lisp books don’t even use a package
<oni-on-ion> package names are flat, right? so its just convention and almost doesnt matter. i dont think that having a *namespace* problem with actual package names should be a thing.
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<no-defun-allowed> apparently prove works better, i'll try that
<no-defun-allowed> nvm
<aeth> I use both prove and fiveam depending on the project. They both have flaws.
<aeth> I should write my own unit test suite and introduce yet another unit test suite that solves a different 70% of the unit testing problem
<no-defun-allowed> although where is test in the makefile defined?
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<fe[nl]ix> aeth: it would be nice if you blogged about the flaws that you see in the two
<aeth> fe[nl]ix: It's more like they're both incomplete. e.g. prove times your tests so you can see when something is slow, and fiveam supports random testing
<aeth> fe[nl]ix: prove defaulting to colors in SLIME is *definitely* a flaw, though. I don't think most people have colored output in SLIME, so it makes it look like noise unless you turn it off.
<pjb> that said, nothing prevents you to name your package in 3D: (make-package "glutSolidTeapot(42)")
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<no-defun-allowed> are there any examples for gitlab ci with common lisp?
<aeth> pjb: Nope, I can't name my package in 3D: (make-package (make-array '(2 2 2) :element-type 'charcter))
<pjb> aeth: this is not 3D. 3D is (3).
<aeth> pjb: It's a 3D string
<pjb> So "XYZ".
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<aeth> (well, a 3D charcter array... strings aren't in arbitrary dimensions)
<no-defun-allowed> okay, so i think i'm supposed to write a makefile to run the tests
<aeth> no-defun-allowed: I thought gitlab ci was a YAML file?
<no-defun-allowed> good point
<no-defun-allowed> i have to write a command to run sbcl that loads netfarm-test and runs the tests
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<no-defun-allowed> so just to check, can i use LET on dynamic scoped variables like `*debugger-hook*`?
<no-defun-allowed> yep
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<no-defun-allowed> okay let's see if it works
<jasom> no-defun-allowed: and the binding will be dynamic rather than lexical
<no-defun-allowed> yay it's running
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<no-defun-allowed> oh wait you need the repo name in the pathname
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