<_death>
I think if you use CLOS, then it's reasonable to expect the implementation to support conditions as classes.. do you know of implementations where this expectation is not met?
<jasom>
reading chapter 9, it relatively clear that define-condition is only guaranteed to create a subtype of cl:condition, not a subclass.
<jasom>
however it is ambiguous if whether or not the standardized condition types are required to be classes.
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<_death>
if you don't use CLOS, and you use or may want to use a CLOS-less implementation, then this does not exclude usage of the condition system by itself
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<jasom>
_death: given that all modern implementations I'm aware of create a class for each define-condition, it's mostly academic, but it is a strange ambiguity
<aeth>
jasom: I thought that that wasn't the case for SBCL?
<_death>
jasom: well, the standard is not perfect.. it's a bit of a spaghetti in this matter.. so the next best thing is to make reasonable assumptions that agree with it
<jasom>
aeth: it does not create a standard-class but it does create a class
<phadthai>
the standard being this way would also allow an implementation to use faster special classes than clos ones for conditions I guess
* beach
is starting to think that fouric is /ignore-ing him for some reason.
<fouric>
beach: no no no i'm not
<fouric>
i took the backtrace on your suggestion
<fouric>
and i DID check for symlinks
<fouric>
someone suggested using find -locate or something
<fouric>
and it didn't say that i had a circular ref
<beach>
I see.
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<fouric>
ok, all the trauma was worth it - buildapp works again
<fouric>
\o/
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<no-defun-allowed>
woohoo my chip8 interpreter works
<beach>
Congratulations!
<no-defun-allowed>
thanks (: i think i implemented the lot in 252loc
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<splittist>
256 might be more thematic...
<splittist>
morning
<beach>
Hello splittist.
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<no-defun-allowed>
splittist: ok with debugger it's 256loc
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<francogrex>
an elementary question: I have this (defparameter ind t)
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<francogrex>
(loop while ind do (block inner ... (loop while do when something (setf ind nil) (return-from inner)...
<francogrex>
ind is never set to nil and the outer loop keeps going. why?
<jackdaniel>
this snippet oesn't make much sense
<jackdaniel>
what is 'something', what is '...', what does "while do" mean? I don't recognize this loop syntax - is "do" a variable here?
<francogrex>
jackdaniel: it doesn't make much sens yes
<jackdaniel>
one could guess is that you want (loop with ind = t while ind do (when (something) (setf ind nil))) without the inner loop and a special variable
<francogrex>
yes would that stop the loop is something is t?
<francogrex>
if (something) is t at some point?
<jackdaniel>
if (something) returns T, then loop which I have written will end
<francogrex>
yes ok then it's clear, (something) is not returning t in my code
<jackdaniel>
francogrex: you may even write it like (loop while (null (something)))
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<francogrex>
ok thanks jackdaniel i think i discovereed the error in my code in the inner loop is actually a (do type of loop and it is returning before I have the chance to make the needed modifications to make (something) return t (that comes below in the code and it actually doesn't execute since the inner loop has already stopped)
<ogamita>
francogrex: try to write some real example. May be pastebin it (or gists it).
<francogrex>
ogamita: it's become more painful since lisppaste was shut down
<ogamita>
gists are nice.
<ogamita>
sprunge.us too but sometimes it doesn't work (may be traffic limited).
<francogrex>
but anyway fixed it now
<ogamita>
ok
<francogrex>
yes but lisppaste was specific, i wish they had developped something to keep it going yet stop the spam, for example just link it to an irc #lisp thing
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<ecraven>
who was the person working on a EuLisp level0 here?
* jackdaniel
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<flip214>
I'm using net.didierverna.clon for argument parsing. What I can't find out is how to mark an option as a list -- it seems that only the first occurrence is visible for GETOPT.
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<jackdaniel>
flip214: could you provide example of the program invocation you have in mind?
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<jackdaniel>
francogrex: starting sbcl with bigger heap makes a lot of sense (by default it is 1G)
<jackdaniel>
i.e to have 2GB set inferior-lisp to "sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048"
* heisig
uses --dynamc-space-size 32000
<shka__>
francogrex: unfortunatly, GC requires a little bit of extra memory to actually scan heap
* jackdaniel
stares at heisig jelaously
<shka__>
but as already pointed out, it is easy to increase heap size
<jackdaniel>
alternative is to use clozure cl which is less careless with memory expenses
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<flip214>
jackdaniel: eg. "--option A --option B --option C" and when doing (GETOPT --long-name "option") I want to receive a list of all 3 strings
* schweers
uses --dynamic-space-size 250000
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<galdor>
is there a way to silence some asdf warnings ? the best example would be:
<galdor>
WARNING: System definition file #P"/home/galdor/dev/site-lisp/cl-ppcre-2.0.11/cl-ppcre.asd" contains definition for system "cl-ppcre-test". Please only define "cl-ppcre" and secondary systems with a name starting with "cl-ppcre/" (e.g. "cl-ppcre/test") in that file.
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<shka__>
hectorhonn: good afternoon
<hectorhonn>
oh wow its alive
<shka__>
sure it is
<shka__>
slightly less in weekends
<hectorhonn>
ah
<hectorhonn>
not sure if im in the right channel
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<hectorhonn>
what's the difference with lisp cafe?
<shka__>
#lispcafe is just offtopic of #lisp
<hectorhonn>
ooh
<hectorhonn>
okay
<hectorhonn>
i have a burning question
<hectorhonn>
who maintains the CL compilers, and what's their motivation for it?
<shka__>
people
<hectorhonn>
it must be a tough job
<hectorhonn>
different from say, java, corporations pay you
<jackdaniel>
you have gcc maintained by folks who are not working for oracle ,)
<ogamita>
hectorhonn: compiler writing is one of the most addictive activity in programming.
<ogamita>
hectorhonn: You see, programming is addictive, right. Well, compiler writing is meta-addictive!
<jackdaniel>
maintaining compilers is not very different than maintaining libraries
<hectorhonn>
i'm halfway through practical common lisp, and i really like how little noise there is in the code
<ogamita>
And then, lisp compiler writing, knowing that lisp is a meta programming programming language, is meta*-addictive!
<ogamita>
Don't try this shit, you will never be able to stop!
<jackdaniel>
#1=(meta . #1#) addictive? ;-)
<hectorhonn>
hahaha
<hectorhonn>
but compilers are hard to write isn't it
<hectorhonn>
not like libraries
<schweers>
depends on the library)) ;
<pfdietz>
Every day, in every way, we are getting meta and meta.
<jackdaniel>
compilers are normal computer programs, nothing magical about them
<ogamita>
You start because you like parser generator, but soon with compilers, you find that you can develop a multitude of very sophisticated algorithms! register allocation, code optimization, etc with very sophisticated and beautiful mathematical algorithms (graphs, genetic programming, topology, etc).
<jackdaniel>
if you had to design a programming language from scratch - that could be harder
<ogamita>
jackdaniel: sure. Go write a web site :-0
<hectorhonn>
schweers: legacy software written in lisp?
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<hectorhonn>
pfdietz: two decades!
<pfdietz>
<== not a spring chicken
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<hectorhonn>
hahaha
<schweers>
Well, some of our legacy software is written in scheme, and the same person who wrote this is still on the team (which is good!). Together we are replacing said legacy. But I’m working on something somewhat isolated (i.e. he doesn’t need to read or modify my code), so I can use more or less whatever I want. I guess I could have used rust or go or whatever instead.
<hectorhonn>
schweers: i see
<hectorhonn>
but you choose lisp because?
<atgreen>
I work with banks, and they are running software for wealth management and more written in scheme
<schweers>
Because I consider it the best language for most jobs, including what I’d doing.
<schweers>
I’m not even doing anything that demands such mad metaprogramming, but nevertheless lisp is simply a very good language.
<hectorhonn>
atgreen: i thought scheme is more towards academic stuff
<hectorhonn>
i dont know, google said that
<hectorhonn>
haha
<atgreen>
no, not really
<atgreen>
I was hired into my current job to hack on scheme many years ago
<hectorhonn>
ooh
<atgreen>
I don't code professionally anymore, but use CL for prototyping stuff, and some digital hardware design I play with
<Xach>
If you want things to be better, you have to make and do things
<hectorhonn>
oh! Xach
<hectorhonn>
where have i seen the name
<jackdaniel>
hectorhonn: it is in the book you are reading
<Xach>
I write a lot about emacs key bindings
<Xach>
(just kidding, I am not Xah)
<jackdaniel>
quote from him, something about "sexy" I think
<hectorhonn>
Xah is the emacs guy right
<hectorhonn>
Xah info lee or something
<jackdaniel>
"this book is dead sexy" or something in this spirit
<hectorhonn>
ohhh
<hectorhonn>
yes
<hectorhonn>
that book is dead sexy —Xach on #lisp
<Xach>
and here it is, 13 years later
<Xach>
same old, same old
<hectorhonn>
haha
<hectorhonn>
13 years, you must be old now
<ogamita>
More and more then…
<ogamita>
Barely of age…
<hectorhonn>
same as pfdietz
<pfdietz>
If you go to one of the job hunting sites, like Monster and the like, and look for Lisp jobs, you will find them occasionally. You'll also get hits for autolisp (which is CAD) and posting that mention Lisp but are really for Clojure and such.
<hectorhonn>
im from malaysia
<hectorhonn>
i dont think anyone uses lisp here
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<hectorhonn>
all i see is java, node, java, node, c#
<shka__>
industry is pretty boring
<hectorhonn>
absolutely
<pfdietz>
Those would be the more common outsourcing languages. Although CL does get outsourced to (to Ukraine, of all places).
<ogamita>
hectorhonn: then find a customer, and start up your own company. As the boss, you'll be able to enforce the use of lisp for all your projects.
<hectorhonn>
gotta feed the bills though
<hectorhonn>
haha, then i would difficulty hiring
<ogamita>
hence the step 1- find a customer.
<pfdietz>
If you want a lisp-like language in a Java environment, look at Clojure.
<ogamita>
a _paying_ customer of course.
<ogamita>
no, ABCL!
<hectorhonn>
hahah
<ogamita>
if you want lisp in java, use lisp! ABCL.
<pfdietz>
Yes, but Clojure has the job traction.
<Odin->
Clojure is a lisip. It's just not Common Lisp.
<Odin->
-i
<atgreen>
kawa is pretty good as well
<hectorhonn>
by the way, CL seems to encourage the use of global variables
<hectorhonn>
isn't that bad?
<hectorhonn>
the earmuffs thing
<beach>
hectorhonn: It does not do that.
<jackdaniel>
hectorhonn: CL is not very opinionated about using the global variables
<jackdaniel>
it just gives you tools to program what you desire to the way you want
<schweers>
globals in lisp are not what they are in more mainstream languages
<schweers>
<jackdaniel>
it is perfectly suitable for so-called functional programming, oop programming or procedural programming
<francogrex>
if you want to continue using your favorite lisp implementation but want to interact with java, use foil
<ogamita>
hectorhonn: the fact that we defile global variables with those stars, shows that we don't encourage them at all!
<pfdietz>
*earmuffs*
<Odin->
hectorhonn: They have a handful of features that make using them very different from global variables in most other languages.
<ogamita>
But it's basic software engineering principle. Don't use globals.
<hectorhonn>
francogrex: thanks!
<francogrex>
if you still want to translate lips to java code use linj
<hectorhonn>
well for example in postmodern
<francogrex>
lisp to java => linj
<hectorhonn>
*database* is global right
<beach>
It is known as a special variable.
<jackdaniel>
hectorhonn: nothing prevents you from using a lexical variable. special variable enables you to work with dynamic contexts
<beach>
hectorhonn: It is much nicer to use than the global variables of other languages.
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<hectorhonn>
what happens if more than one thread calls connect?
<hectorhonn>
hmm, on second thought, maybe there is some mutex in there
<hectorhonn>
haha ok i dont know
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<hectorhonn>
sorry, just a little scary in new pool
<schweers>
You can have threading issues with lexical variables as well.
<beach>
hectorhonn: Bindings to special variables are per-thread so they are quite safe compared to global variables.
<ogamita>
Notably if you try to pass closures from one thread to another…
<schweers>
ogimata: or even if you are creating threads which start with a closure, and you think every one closes over a different variable, but they don’t ...
<hectorhonn>
does the compiler give a warning?
<jackdaniel>
schweers: lolol idiom: (let ((arg :something)) (lambda () (let ((arg arg)) ,@body))) gives you nice workaround for that
<jackdaniel>
ach, I might have misunderstood what you said
<schweers>
jackdaniel: I know, I ended up with something like that. You guys here helped me figure that one out, I’m still grateful for that :)
<hectorhonn>
(blur)
<schweers>
eh, no, not quite that, but I know what you mean
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<hectorhonn>
given a list, how to i map only the nth element?
<pfdietz>
Often when these questions get asked, the hard part is figuring out what led to the question, not answering the question itself.
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<pfdietz>
Teaching is hard
<hectorhonn>
haha, sorry ><
<hectorhonn>
asking in clschool
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<hectorhonn>
problem solved by beach
<hectorhonn>
(defun ff (list position function) (append (subseq list 0 position) (funcall function) (nth list position) (subseq list (1+ position))))
<beach>
Untested.
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<beach>
Here is another (defun ff (list position function) (loop for element in list for i from 1 collect (if (= i position) (funcall function element) element)))
<hectorhonn>
hmm it says, ; Derived type of LIST is (VALUES SEQUENCE &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type UNSIGNED-BYTE.
<beach>
Also untested.
<beach>
Probably the argument order of NTH.
<hectorhonn>
let me try to figure it out
<pfdietz>
The best solution, though, is seeing if one of the de facto standard libraries has a function that does what you want, and using that.
<beach>
hectorhonn: Try (nth position list) instead.
<beach>
hectorhonn: I don't usually write code using IRC, so I don't have the usual help from SLIME and the Common Lisp implementation.
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<hectorhonn>
beach: nth position list compiles
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<hectorhonn>
why does it say invalid number of arguments though?
<hectorhonn>
(ff (list 1 2 3 4) 0 'foo)
<hectorhonn>
lol should i go back to clschool
<hectorhonn>
ah, parens problem
<hectorhonn>
got it!
<hectorhonn>
(defun ff (list position function) (append (subseq list 0 position) (list (funcall function (nth position list))) (subseq list (1+ position))))
<hectorhonn>
(ff (list 1 2 3 4) 3 'foo)
<hectorhonn>
a bit long, but works
<hectorhonn>
beach: thanks again!
<hectorhonn>
pfdietz: i looked in the CL quick reference but didn't find any.. might have missed it
<pfdietz>
Could be there is no such function. Hmm.
<hectorhonn>
anyway.. good night guys :)
<hectorhonn>
CL really is awe-inspiring
<hectorhonn>
i should hang out here more often
<hectorhonn>
<3
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<pfdietz>
Oh yay, December QL dist is out.
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<beach>
Great!
<pfdietz>
static-dispatch — Static generic function dispatch for Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
I think that inlined-generic-functions did a similar thing
<pfdietz>
See comments at that github for why this is different
<jackdaniel>
providing a table with benchmarks for comparison would be a nice touch
<beach>
I wonder why the MOP machinery can't be used and a hash table is used instead.
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<jackdaniel>
beach: this excerpt addresses this question: "the metaclass is changed from the standard generic function metaclass which in turn prevents certain optimizations, of the dynamic generic function dispatch, from being performed by the compiler." (part of comparison with inlined-generic-funcitons
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<pfdietz>
This suggests that gf metaclasses need additional infrastructure to support these optimizations (perhaps in an implementation-dependent way).
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<jasom>
fouric: late now I know, but the following should find symlink loops: find . -follow -printf ""
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<Younder>
coq has a new logic on homotopy type theory called HoTT
<Younder>
From before I had ACL2 and Isablelle with HOL
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<Younder>
I say this in remembrance of Vladimir Voevodsky a brilliant mathematician who died before his time. This is his legacy.
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<Younder>
Homtopy type theory, the univalent theorem and a program at Princeton Institute of Advanced Study for continuing it.
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<figurelisp>
CL does not have concurrency?
<no-defun-allowed>
Not in the standard but lparallel and Bordeaux threads are good starting points.
<figurelisp>
so when common lisp was popular people used these kind of libraries to handle concurrency?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Sorry, when lisp was popular?
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, probably not before the AI winter, concurrent machines probably had non-generic designs since those were expensive and new.
<no-defun-allowed>
Lisp machines could do threads but were single core machines.
<figurelisp>
lisp was popular back in time, but isn't now. Sorry if i got it wrong
<pfdietz>
There's a common model of concurrency in CLs now, where special variables dynamically bound in a thread are thread local.
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<pfdietz>
And I think there's de facto compatibility of the various thread primitives, at least through a compatibility layer?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Bordeaux threads is probably that layer.
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<_death>
figurelisp: there were also Lisp dialects for concurrency.. like starlisp or qlisp
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<figurelisp>
i see
<figurelisp>
I am still in my very early lisp phases. It was just that this question popped in my head
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