jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<griddle> Does anyone know of a good reading source for how lisp JIT compilers or ahead of time compilers work? I'm mostly interested in how scoping is implemented
<Bike> what does scoping have to do with jit?
<griddle> dynamic scoping
<Bike> i still don't understand.
<Bike> (i'm a compiler dev)
<griddle> I guess, when you define what is essentially a "curried" function right?
<Bike> No?
<griddle> (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))
<griddle> how does the inner code know about the outer x in a compiled lisp?
<Xach> griddle: the book Lisp in Small Pieces goes into great detail on the topic
<Bike> that would actually be a lexical binding, not special.
<Xach> it starts simple and slow and gets more complex and fast in a nice didactic way
<Bike> The most obvious way is that the (lambda (y) ...) produces a "closure", which stores the binding of x along with the function.
<Bike> LiSP is indeed good for this.
<griddle> so thats just some data structure on the stack or something?
<Bike> not necessarily on the stack, but yes.
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<griddle> and you'd have some kind of feature to lookup information in that structure? Or would you know ahead of time where in the structure that value lives
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<Bike> If it's compiled, no reason not to do the latter.
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<aeth> griddle: Naively, there could just be a defstruct to create a structure-object for every scope except the global one. Gensym its name to avoid the problem with redefinition.
<jasom> griddle: In a compiled implementation, a lexical binding is just a mapping from an identifier to a location (i.e. lexical bindings do not need to exist in a meaningful way at runtime, only at compile time).
<aeth> (I say structure-object because they're simpler and they can have inline accessors, or something like that. i.e. the location is known to the compiler at compile time)
<aeth> (well, at least the offset, since if it's on the heap the GC can move it around)
<Bike> i think if griddle doesn't know what a closure is they might be unfamiliar with defstruct.
<griddle> I've implemented a lisp interpreter in the past, I'm just looking into how things like lexical scoping is done in a JIT if you can define different variable names at runtime
<aeth> Bike: The parens are for everyone else
<jasom> what usually happens is compilers have an expensive binding implementation that works in all cases and lives on the heap, but then a fast binding implementation for when a variable is never closed over (or is only closed over by lambdas that don't escape the heap).
<Bike> griddle: i don't think being jit versus aot matters here.
<jasom> griddle: for the most part, compiled implementations of lisp do not allow manipulation of lexical bindings at runtime
<griddle> oh ok
<jasom> griddle: the standard itself provides no such mechanism anyways
<jasom> dynamic bindings have a defined lifetime at runtime, and those can be accessed via symbol-value.
<griddle> yeah in past I've just had a really slow implementation with a recursive scope lookup of dynamic bindings
<griddle> I never really gave a fixed time approach any thought
<jasom> griddle: for variables that are never closed over, the value can be stored in a register. For variables that are closed over by lambdas that don't escape the dynamic scope, it can be the stack. For variables that are closed over by lambdas that might escape the dynamic scope, they must be stored on the heap.
<jasom> griddle: I think you have dynamc and lexical backwards. Dynamic bindings are trivial to implement with global variables and unwind-protect.
<jasom> (at least in the single-threaded case)
<griddle> I think I do, yeah
<jasom> griddle: (let ((*x* 1)) (defun foo (print *x*))) (let ((*x* 2)) (foo)) ;; prints 2
<jasom> ^^^ this is dynamic binding
<jasom> griddle: (let ((x 1)) (defun foo (print x))) (let ((x 2)) (foo)) ;; prints 1
<jasom> ^^^ this is lexical binding
<griddle> yeah ok makes sense
<aeth> jasom: Absolutely (re: expensive and fast implementations). The variable isn't even guaranteed to exist unless (debug 3)
<aeth> On the plus side, that means that there's no (runtime) cost to naming intermediate steps if you want to
<jasom> griddle: if you're familiar with compilers for less dynamic languages, all the approaches used there for temp allocation work just fine for any variables that are never closed over.
<jasom> anyway I have to leave
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<griddle> awesome thanks for all the help
<verisimilitude> Are you familiar with the concept of Phantom Stacks, griddle?
<griddle> looking at the paper now. tldr?
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<verisimilitude> Well, I enjoy the colorful phrasing RMS used, comparing the stack to a government agency.
<griddle> aptly, lol
<verisimilitude> Put simply, treat the stack as a stack until it can no longer be treated as a stack, in which case it was never really a stack at all.
<griddle> so treat it as a "heap" after a certain point and find a new one?
<verisimilitude> Treat it as a heap if the stack discipline would be violated.
<griddle> very interesting
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<jcowan> Can someone give me a brief tutorial on restarts?
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<jcowan> I understand the idea of conditions with restarts, such that the condition-catcher can choose which restart to invoke, do a snippet of code set up by the signaler, and then either return or do a non-local exit
<jcowan> but I don't understand what the rest of the restart API is for.
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<Bike> so, what, the :interactive and the :report and the :test?
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<jcowan> Bike: I was thinking of restart-bind and friends, the ones that push the restarts into the dynamic environment
<jcowan> as opposed to attaching them directly to a condition
<Bike> well, probably restart-case expands to restart-bind, actually. the condition association is a separate thing.
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<Bike> in sbcl at least, with-condition-restarts just puts the condition on a list stored within the restart.
<Bike> (so you can't get to the restart from the condition, e.g.)
<rnmhdn> any thoughts on a 1:30 h interesting talk related to functional programming?
<Bike> usually handler-bind and resetart-bind just shove the thing on an internal dynamically bound list
<Bike> and then invoke-restart or whatever just calls a thunk
<Bike> a thunk that, for restart-case, will do a nonlocal exit
<Bike> you can probably suss it out from the macroexpansion, really.
<jcowan> Yes, I get that that's what it *does*, but what is it *for*?
<Bike> oh, sorry, i misunderstood.
<Bike> restart-bind i've never seen anyone use. restart-case though...
<jcowan> np, I'm not being very clear, I know.
<Bike> it's basically for when you want to recover from an error, i guess
<Bike> like...
<Bike> you can do an ASSERT, and when an ssert fails it'll pop up the debugger and ask for new values to use
<Bike> so that you can then pass the restart
<Bike> that's kind of nice sometimes
<Bike> then it'll just resume after the assert.
<Bike> (with those new values)
<jcowan> But how does the caller know which restarts the signaler can handle at all?
<no-defun-allowed> if i'm destructuring in a loop for clause, can i give the destructured values of-types?
<jcowan> no-defun-allowed: Probably with the
<no-defun-allowed> true
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<hectorhonn> good morning
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<Bike> jcowan: i don't understand the question
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<jcowan> I push some restarts on the stack and invoke some code that eventually calls assert. The user, or I on the user's behalf, chooses a restart, its code is executed, and the assert returns. But presumably the caller of the assert was doing that because some assumption that it depends on is being violated, and what is the caller to do when unexpectedly he gets control again?
<jcowan> Bike ^^
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<Bike> i think you're misunderstanding something. control won't return from the assert unless the restart was set up in the assert.
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<Bike> if you have like, (restart-case (... (assert ...) ...) (foo ...)) and select the foo restart when the assert fails, control returns from the restart-case. the assert is abandoned.
<Bike> i'm pretty sure. little tired admittedly
<jcowan> Hmm. Well, thanks, maybe I can figure it out from there.
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<Bike> with restart-bind you can have a restart that doesn't transfer control like that or at all, but i honestly have no conception of why anyone would want that, so i can't help there.
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<jcowan> I'll study the example at clhs restart-case
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<verisimilitude> You may be interested in the similarities between Common Lisp condition handling and PL/I and Multics, jcowan, if that's something you already find interesting.
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<jcowan> verisimilitude: I haven't looked at PL/I condition handling in years
<jcowan> It appears to be plain exception handling with resumption semantics, like Scheme or Mesa (both of which I have used). But restarts seem to be only in CL and Dylan.
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<akoana> (quit
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<hectorhonn> the primary unit of abstraction in java is classes. what is the primary unit of abstraction in lisp?
<beach> It is called a "protocol" and it is not a first-class object.
<hectorhonn> protocol?
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<hectorhonn_> argh unstable internet connection
<hectorhonn_> beach: ok, let me read that up. thanks!
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<splittist> good morning
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<beach> Hello splittist.
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<hectorhonn> beach: i see its a chapter 5. looks like a good book, how do i get to the other chapters?
<beach> You wait until I finish the book and then you buy it from Amazon.
<no-defun-allowed> beach: irrelevant, but how do you typeset those nice looking function/class/gf description lines in your documentation on closos and sicl? Is it something you made yourself or is it a common LaTeX library?
<hectorhonn> :O
<hectorhonn> you run the site?
<beach> hectorhonn: Yes, metamodular is my site.
<hectorhonn> beach: impressiveee
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<beach> no-defun-allowed: I think it is just \begin{verbatim}...\end{verbatim}
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Oh, wait.
<beach> no-defun-allowed: I am using a small library that came with the CLIM documentation called specmacros.tex
<beach> no-defun-allowed: You can find it in the SICL repository.
<beach> I suppose Scott McKay wrote it.
<hectorhonn> beach: erm, what's the take away from chapter 5? i'm don't feel like i've learnt anything
<beach> Sorry to hear that.
<beach> Let me see if I can find an example...
<beach> Look at appendix A in this document: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
<hectorhonn> beach: ok..
<hectorhonn> beach: so, the primary unit of abstraction in lisp is also classes? and generic functions?
<no-defun-allowed> beach: thanks, I'll go take a look at it.
<hectorhonn> beach: for example, suppose i want to write a parser manually, as an exercise. should i represent the AST as a defclass?
<beach> Yes.
<hectorhonn> beach: instead of a list?
<beach> You are talking representation.
<beach> The very idea of a protocol is to avoid talking about representation.
<beach> Abstraction means that you explicitly avoid talking about representation.
<hectorhonn> isn't abstraction the same as representation?
<beach> It's the very opposite.
<beach> In a protocol, you talk about abstract types and abstract operations.
<no-defun-allowed> hectorhonn: abstraction is how you hide representation.
<verisimilitude> I'd think symbols and lists and functions and that manner of thing are the primary abstraction of Common Lisp.
<beach> verisimilitude: You would think wrong.
<verisimilitude> You could boil any language down to protocol'' as the primary unit of abstraction, if you wanted to.
<verisimilitude> That's just boring.
<hectorhonn> sorry, coming from java oop shop, haha
<verisimilitude> Common Lisp has an OO system called CLOS, hectorhonn, but you can rather entirely ignore it if you feel like it.
<hectorhonn> let me think of a way to rephrase
<beach> verisimilitude: That's not very good advice.
<Inline> morning
<beach> Hello Inline.
<Inline> heya beach :)
<verisimilitude> Do you know what no good Common Lisp programmer can ignore, beach?
<verisimilitude> It's macros.
<verisimilitude> Macros are more important to Lisp than any OO system.
<verisimilitude> Macros rely on the homoiconic nature of Lisp, related to its lists. Lists are important for abstraction.
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<hectorhonn> i guess what i really wanted to ask was, for example in java, i would write a XyzToken class for each type of token parsed, with a common base class Token, maybe with some common and specific operations. Then another class to represent a list of Tokens. so i have somehow represented (or abstracted?) this idea of "token" in the program,
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<hectorhonn> In haskell there would be a record sum type, and several functions that can act on the record. then another record type to represent a list of tokens
<hectorhonn> What would be a good way to do it in CL?
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<beach> Those are representations, not abstractions.
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<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: Common Lisp doesn't give you a recipe how to represent your program
<jackdaniel> (i.e it is less opinionated how you should write your program than Java or Haskell)
<hectorhonn> ok, i guess i meant representation, haha
<beach> In Common Lisp, you would choose whatever is appropriate in terms of performance. It could be symbols, lists, hash tables, arrays, standard objects, whatever.
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: i see, then what options does CL give me?
<jackdaniel> so while having "the one way" how to do things is comfortable it is also limiting
<verisimilitude> Just use a list of lists or structures or what have you, hectorhonn.
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<jackdaniel> you may arrange your program around protocols (like in haskell), you may create a class hierarchy with functions operating on it (like in Java), or you may write your own dsl with macros (like verisimilitude suggests). I think that finding the programming style which suits you best is a hard but worthwhile endavour
<verisimilitude> Your main options are making a class for tokens which you instantiate, making a structure representing tokens, or just using an informal representation, such as a list of whatever you need, hectorhonn.
<verisimilitude> Until you have a good idea of what you're doing, the list of whatever you need option is the easiest and most flexible.
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<jackdaniel> i.e there are libraries in Common Lisp which are referentially transparent (something often praised among programmers who fancy functional programing), but there are also many libraries depending heavily on OO
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<jackdaniel> minion: tell hectorhonn about paip
<minion> hectorhonn: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel> this book presents a nice overview of techniques you could use with Common Lisp
<jackdaniel> minion: tell hectorhonn about pcl
<minion> hectorhonn: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<Inline> where is AIM now ?
<Inline> the successor to paip
<jackdaniel> and this book is more concentrated about mainstream (these days) style of CL programming heavily depending on CLOS (but starts from basics)
<jackdaniel> I don't know what AIM is (never heard of it)
<verisimilitude> I assume he means AOL Instant Messager.
<verisimilitude> That's the only AIM I'm aware of.
<hectorhonn> haha... ever get that feeling when trying to start drawing something on a blank canvas? CL gives me that no restriction feeling
<verisimilitude> Lisp is best, I think, when you don't quite know what you're doing yet, hectorhonn.
<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: if you decide to listen to my advice, I'd recommend starting reading PAIP
<verisimilitude> There are plenty of better languages if you know exactly what you're going to be doing, but Lisp is good for exploration.
<jackdaniel> since it provides many case studies analyzing and evolving code bit by bit towards the sketched goal
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<verisimilitude> Also, hectorhonn, I noticed I've yet to recommend you any reading material, even in our last discussion, so I'll recommend something you already have.
<hectorhonn> ok, so combining advice from beach, jackdaniel, and verisimilitude, i should start out with lists, explore different ways to find out which style i like best, and remember that i can use *anything* in lisp, there is no idiomatic way like in haskell or java. that right?
<verisimilitude> Press C-h i in your Emacs and go to the Emacs Lisp Intro''.
<verisimilitude> Read that for a nice beginner's introduction to Lisp in general.
<verisimilitude> There's a saying that if you give twenty different Lisp programmers something to do, you'll get twenty different programs, hectorhonn.
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: i'm halfway through pcl, yet to start on on paip
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<verisimilitude> The related saying is if you give twenty different Java programmers something to do, you'll get twenty copies of the same program.
<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: another way of studying (which proves to be more engaging for some people) is to contribute to open source projects
<jackdaniel> then you have some conventions already in place, so you are not left without any clues how to do things
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: i don't see that option, only option for slime
<verisimilitude> Just type in M-x info , then.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: an absolute enterprise nightmare
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: yeah same
<hectorhonn> (oh is your nickname long to type! :D)
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: any beginner friendly ones in CL?
<verisimilitude> Use tab completion, hectorhonn.
<ealfonso> I have a non-lisp source file vars.conf which I need to read from lisp. using a path relative to (uiop:current-lisp-file-pathname) works on the repl, but fails with no-such-file when the lisp source file is in ~/.cache/common-lisp: /home/USER/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.14.debian-linux-x64/home/USER/git/path-to-file/vars.conf. How can I either make the compiler include the vars.conf next to the compiled source files, or refer to the
<ealfonso> original source file pathname?
<jackdaniel> I don't see much value in belittling programmers of other languages (or other programmers in general) [re java programmers]
<verisimilitude> I didn't write the saying, jackdaniel.
<hectorhonn> "The related saying is if you give twenty different Java programmers something to do, you'll get twenty copies of the same program" Actually this is exactly what a language should strive for, no? clear semantics
<jackdaniel> repeating it is enough
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: OMG!
<verisimilitude> Well, feel free to not see the value in it.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: i feel really stupid now. hahaha
<jackdaniel> ealfonso: try asdf:system-relative-pathname function
<verisimilitude> What, you just got it, hectorhonn?
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: yeah, the tab thing
<jackdaniel> that was euphemism, but whatever
<hectorhonn> i've been typing nicknames since joining lisp
<verisimilitude> Well, now you know.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: thanks!
<verisimilitude> It's no issue.
<ealfonso> jackdaniel thanks
<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: cffi maintainers are very nice people to work with. from other projects you could help with mcclim and ecl (I'm working on these); but I think that the best advice is to look for something you find useful and fun to work with
<jackdaniel> slime project is also something benefitting whole community, so even small improvements have big impact
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: i see. anyone happen to know mmontone, the maintainer for djula?
<verisimilitude> If we're recommending Common Lisp projects now, I'd recommend you at least start with projects that are implemented in pure standard Common Lisp, hectorhonn.
<hectorhonn> there are impure standard Common Lisp? i thought common lisp is a dialect itself
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<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: some projects depend on foreign function interface
<jackdaniel> (and shared libraries written in other languages)
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: oh, i see
<verisimilitude> Put simply, there are plenty of Common Lisp programs or libraries that either only work on one implementation, usually SBCL, or use the CFFI and offload all of the work onto something written in a different language, both of which I believe should be avoided.
<jackdaniel> laters \o
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: i must say i agree. CL seems capable enough for most tasks
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<verisimilitude> See you later then, jackdaniel.
<verisimilitude> I was writing a program with an interactive terminal interface and did take a look at the available libraries.
<verisimilitude> Guess what I noticed, hectorhonn.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: what did you notice?
<verisimilitude> All of these were just bindings to other libraries, most often Ncurses.
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<verisimilitude> You have Common Lisp, this nice language, and yet these libraries risk memory leaks for what amounts to printing text.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: that's a pragmatic decision i guess, ncurses library already exists and can interface easily with the os
<verisimilitude> Not only that, but it's so much more bothersome to lead a Common Lisp library that wants an entire C library with it.
<verisimilitude> So, I wrote my own library for this.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: what is the library?
<verisimilitude> You can see it here, if you're interested:
<hectorhonn> wow, you all have your own websites?
<verisimilitude> I do; I can't claim for the rest of them.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: no github? solo project?
<verisimilitude> I refuse to use Github and I'm the sole author, yes.
<verisimilitude> As a tangent, Github is awful, hectorhonn, and you should avoid it wherever possible.
<verisimilitude> I'd much rather a company need to bother my VPS provider than just email Github and demand something be taken down, which happens.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: has your stuff been taken down?
<verisimilitude> Mine hasn't, no.
<hectorhonn> verisimilitude: i see. that's good to hear. stuff taken down probably violates copyright
<verisimilitude> Here's an example:
<verisimilitude> It would be much harder to abuse copyright for taking down things you don't like, if so many people weren't all in a centralized location.
<hectorhonn> i see. the problem is dmca, not github
<hectorhonn> but yeah, it's good to have a backup site
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<pjb> verisimilitude: lists are important for abstraction, only if you use them to represent everything. If you were ready to use CLOS classes for everything (like in Smaltalk, say), then classes would become an abstraction device. Until that, they're just a representation device. It can be used to represent external objects, and thus abstract _them_, but not as an internal abstraction, since you could also have structures, vectors,
<pjb> functions, or other representations.
<pjb> verisimilitude: also, there is a way to distinguish the representation from the abstraction. This week, I had to debug a bug in C (it would be the same in lisp) where I had a typedef struct { void* data; int size } buffer; with a function buffer_new(int size) and a function buffer_free. The call to free failed on invalid pointer even thought it was allocated in buffer_new.
<pjb> verisimilitude: the reason why that some client code used &buffer->data and incremented the pointer.
<pjb> verisimilitude: the solution was to stop using this representation (the structure) and replace it with an abstraction: typedef struct buffer; void* buffer_data(buffer* b); int buffer_size(buffer* b); Then the client code could not increment the buffer data pointer. That representation was abtracted away, code become safe and correct.
<ebrasca> What is "#++" in cl ?
<beach> clhs #+
<pjb> Tests whether (member :+ *features*) and if true, reads the following form
<Inline> the presence
<Inline> and absence is #-
<pjb> Otherwise, it skips over the following s/form/sexp/.
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<ebrasca> OK
<Inline> for example #+clim
<ebrasca> it is literaly skiping + ?
<Inline> ?
<Inline> no no no
<Inline> oh man
<Inline> it is skipping the next form if the #+ fails
<ebrasca> "#+" and "+"
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<ebrasca> mmm skip some code in all cl implementations?
<Inline> ebrasca: say you want to eval some form conditionally
<ebrasca> I have read macro with name "with-with" .
<Inline> ebrasca: say you want to eval (startup-my-editor) only when clim system was loaded
<Inline> ebrasca: then you can say #+clim (startup-my-editor)
<ebrasca> I have allways read someting like #+sbcl or #+genera but never #++.
<ebrasca> 2 +
<Inline> ebrasca: now if clim was not loaded and hence not pushed onto the *features* list then it will skip that form
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<Inline> ebrasca: depends, if it is pushing + onto *features* itself it can check for it too
<Inline> ebrasca: + can be anything
<ebrasca> So it allways ignore?
<pjb> verisimilitude: there's gitlab.com instead. Or framagit.org
<Inline> ebrasca: no, it's a feature
<Inline> ebrasca: it checks for a feature keyword named +
<Inline> ebrasca: you get it ?
<ebrasca> No
<ebrasca> How do you give feature + to #++ ?
<pjb> (setf *features* (delete :+ *features*)) (read-from-string "(a #++ b c)") #| --> (a c) ; 11 |# (pushnew :+ *features*) (quote (a #++ b c)) #| --> (a b c) |#
<pjb> In #++ you already gave the feature :+ to #+ !
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<pjb> To give the feature + (assuming standard readtable and packages, ie. cl:+) to #+ you would write #+cl:+
<Inline> so b was skipped because there was no + in the *features*
<pjb> Because there was no :+
<Inline> and in the second example b was not skipped because + was found in *features*
<pjb> #+ reads the feature expression in the keyword package.
<pjb> Not +, :+
<Inline> ok
<Inline> forgive my incompleteness sirrah!
<pjb> #+#.(cl:if (cl:= (cl-user::version) 2) '(:and) '(:or)) (new-function) calls new-function only if (version) returns 2…
<ebrasca> I think I undestand it now.
<pjb> More simply: #+sbcl x #+ccl y #-(or sbcl ccl) (error "not implemented for ~S" (lisp-implementation-type))
<ebrasca> wow I think I can make someting like #+little-endian
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<pjb> (find "LITTLE" *features* :test (lambda (x y) (search x (string y)))) #| --> :little-endian-target |# in ccl
<pjb> in sbcl and ecl we have :LITTLE-ENDIAN, and in abcl and clisp nothing. (those works on VM that abstract away the endianness. eg. clisp always writes binary files in little endian, even on big-endian architectures, so clisp binary files can be compatible between clisp on different platforms)
<pjb> In any case, if you depend on this flag, your code is in error.
<pjb> (it's a big code-smell).
<pjb> bbl
<ebrasca> I have read it in my *features*
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<sindan> where can I read up on what everything in *features* means?
<jackdaniel> sindan: you can't, because they are not standarized and they are pushed from different places
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<jackdaniel> i.e you may find a description in the implementation manual chapter about weak references
<jackdaniel> or in the library documentation
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<jackdaniel> there is a library which aims at partial standarization called trivial-features
<sindan> I see. So, trivial-features and starting from implementation docs if they exist. I'm guessing there will be acceptable documentation for sbcl.
<ebrasca> jackdaniel: What about mezzano , GNU hurd and others?
<ebrasca> And in cpus why they don't add ppc64le or ppc64be?
<jackdaniel> ebrasca: endianess is a separate feature
<jackdaniel> it is listed first
<sindan> that library is pretty green
<jackdaniel> regarding mezzano, I think that such contribution would be accepted in the library, but I don't really know; ask luis
<ebrasca> Why linux is in OPERATING SYSTEM section?
<jackdaniel> and as of gnu hurd: is there lisp which actually works on gnu hurd as of today? and if yes, I suspect gnu hurd being a posix system, so this is explained that "sysname" information from uname is used
<ebrasca> Linux is one kernel.
<jackdaniel> I recommend reading paragraph before "Examples:"
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<ebrasca> Linux is not one operating system .
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<jackdaniel> if you had read the pararaph as I have suggested, you would know, that on POSIX systems the "sysname" information from uname(3) should be used
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<ebrasca> ja
<jackdaniel> and on linux this is, indeed, "linux"
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<ebrasca> I think correct is GNU/Linux
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<jackdaniel> everyone is entitled to think what they desire to think, fact remains that this works exactly as specified, sysname value is "Linux" on systems powered by linux kernel
<jdz> Not all operating systems that use Linux kernels use GNU userland utilities.
<jackdaniel> (most notable example would be Android)
<ebrasca> GNU/Linux , Android are ok . Linux is not ok.
<jdz> It is OK, when talking about system interfaces.
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<jdz> There's nothing GNU in POSIX or Linux syscalls.
* jackdaniel resigns from trying to explain why it is irrelevant given how this *features* entry is specified in the document (with a disappointment)
<ebrasca> Then unix
<jdz> Also, Alpine Linux is a Linux distribution, and the GNU part is optional.
<jdz> No, AIX is also Unix.
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<jdz> ebrasca: Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but this is very off-topic, so I also resign from further discussion.
<ebrasca> jdz: OK
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<ebrasca> jdz: I am learning cl-vulkan. I am thinking if I can take care of cl-vulkan.
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<jdz> Is the project abandoned?
<ebrasca> I think |3b| have abandon it 3 years ago.
<ebrasca> Or 1-3
<ebrasca> years ago
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<ebrasca> jdz: If I remember correctly I have write with |3b| and he say he abandoned it.
<ebrasca> jdz: yea I have find it in my log. "<|3b|> ebrasca: no idea, haven't tried to run it since i stopped working on it :/"
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<pjb> sindan: for example, you can see the doc of *my* features for *this* project at: https://framagit.org/patchwork/patchwork/blob/master/notes.txt#L326
<pjb> sindan: there's also https://cliki.net/features (please, update it!)
<elderK> Holy craaaaaap. A month since I last used C or C++!
<|3b|> cl-vulkan isn't "abandoned", but it also isn't currently being worked on, so if you want to use it, you will probably need to add to it
<elderK> |3b|: ;) you could just say it's "mature" :P :D
<elderK> "It's not dead. Just mature."
<elderK> Or "sleeping" :)
<|3b|> elderK: that would sort of require it to be able to do anything first :p
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<elderK> |3b|: It's reminiscent of GLAD :)
<|3b|> "sleeping" maybe, that doesn't imply any sort of completion :)
* |3b| intends to work on it more, it just isn't likely to make it to the top of my priority stack any time soon
<elderK> :P It is taking a nap :D :)
<elderK> Fair enough :)
<ebrasca> Last Commits on Apr 14, 2016 from |3b|
<pjb> You can make a CL implementation run directly on the Linux kernel. See an example with emacs: https://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html for a CL implementation with (or new emacs with modules) FFI it would be easier, since we could do the mount directly.
<elderK> It's like my tinkering on binary-typesy stuff has taken a backseat - past couple weeks I've been spending a ton of time learning about lisp implementation.
<|3b|> (2 other unrelated projects ahead of it, then i probably want to work on spirv compiler some more before vulkan itself, and also get a better idea of how i want to use it)
<elderK> Lots of reading old research papers and things, too. It's been fascinating.
<elderK> |3b|: Sounds smart.
<|3b|> spirv is probably less important now than when i last worked on it though, since i think there are glsl extensions available that would be good enough for getting the rest working
<ebrasca> |3b|: Have you read https://vulkan-tutorial.com/ ?
<|3b|> knowing how i (or anyone else for that matter) would want to use it is important though, hard to design good abstractions without knowing use cases
<elderK> |3b|: Parsing the spec file looks kind fo horrible
<elderK> Like, the spec file itself looks kind of horrible.
<elderK> so much C assumption there
<|3b|> ebrasca: i'm not sure that was available last time i looked at vulkan
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<|3b|> elderK: at least it is c :)
<ebrasca> |3b|: I think you can do someting like this.
<|3b|> and a lot of the C stuff can be ignored
<elderK> |3b|: Sweet.
<ebrasca> |3b|: I don't know how to make instance of VkSurfaceKHR .
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<ebrasca> |3b|: What 2 projects are you doing?
<|3b|> trying to assemble a thermal camera (mostly just having trouble getting a working configuration of a 64bit arm board with all the drivers i need), and writing some simple utilities for android
<ebrasca> |3b|: I am using linux not win32.
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<|3b|> https://github.com/3b/cl-vulkan/blob/master/vk/wrappers.lisp#L451 is the definition of the function/macro it uses, so you will need to write a linux version of that for whichever OS API you use
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<|3b|> but could be xcb or wayland or whatever depending on how you create the window
<|3b|> (but probably xlib)
<ebrasca> I am new to vulkan and glfw.
<|3b|> what glfw bindings do you use?
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<ebrasca> |3b|: borodust sugested me https://github.com/borodust/bodge-glfw .
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<|3b|> ok, looks like glfw wants you to call its functions to create the surface, so you will have to look at bodge-glfw to figure that out
<ebrasca> |3b|: I have someting like http://ix.io/1w2X/lisp .
<|3b|> and probably write a similar with-*-surface macro to handle destroying it
<ebrasca> |3b|: Some years ago you helped me with cl-opengl. I like to be more like you and write good code and look like I know everiting.
<|3b|> %glfw:create-window-surface + %vk:destroy-surface-khr should replace the vk:with-xlib-surface
<|3b|> i'm not sure you are calling %glfw:create-window-surface correctly though, the last argument is a foreign pointer to the surface
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<|3b|> you will need to ask borodust how to call that, i'm not familiar with the wrapper generator it uses
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<jackdaniel> |3b|: new lesson learned! you look like you know everything , don't spoil it with "I'm not familiar…" talk ;-)
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<|3b|> ebrasca: #++ is my lazy way of commenting out forms. slightly shorter and easier to type than #+()
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<jackdaniel> nb: both ways are incorrect, it should be even longer #+(or)
<|3b|> yeah, that
* |3b| forgets the 'correct' way since i don't use it :)
<ebrasca> |3b|: Your macro "with-with" is very interesting.
<jackdaniel> or if anyone bothers to define a reader macro, it *could be* #;something
<|3b|> emacs/slime understands #++
<jackdaniel> right, that is a good argument against #;
<|3b|> and :+ on *features* seems sufficiently unusual that i'm willing to just let someone send me a patch to fix it if they come up with a good reason they need it
<|3b|> (same as odd reader/printer settings, etc)
<|3b|> not like people can't push :sbcl :ccl :genera etc onto *features* at random too :)
<|3b|> (or remove them for that matter, though ideally most code would have pure CL fallbacks for non-bugfix cases)
<jackdaniel> I'm taking my time to correct all #+nil 's to #+(or) when I encounter them in code I work with (for sake of correctness by default)
<|3b|> i usually try to just remove them completely once i'm done actively working on something
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<|3b|> most of them are debugging and/or multiple attempts at something i haven't figured out yet
<pfdietz> Hmm. A use for an Eclector-based code rewriting tool.
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<ebrasca> pfdietz: What do you mean with ^?
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<pjb> I prefer the more direct #+(and) included or #-(and) skipped. #+(or) is kind of a triple negative…
<pfdietz> A tool that would use Eclector to produce a kind of parse tree that can be converted back to something that is character-for-character equivalent to the original file. Then, do rewrites on that representation to get rid of #+nil forms (the example above).
<pjb> |3b|: One reason why #++ is very bad, is this whole discussion above!
<pfdietz> It would be easier if lisp files were directly equivalent to the forms after reading, but that loses comments and other reader-handled stuff.
<|3b|> pjb: ideally it wouldn't show up much in 'released' code, unfortunately not much of my code makes it to that point :(
<ebrasca> |3b|: I going to send PR with fix for #++ .
<|3b|> ebrasca: which 'fix'?
<pjb> #+(and)
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<ebrasca> |3b|: ^
<|3b|> #-(and) you mean?
<pjb> Right.
<|3b|> ok, i'd probably apply that if sent, though i'd probably keep using #++ if i worked on it some more :)
<scymtym> pfdietz: i made a very quick and dirty demo for something like this a few weeks ago (in this case replacing IF without alternative leg with WHEN): https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/refactor.png
<pfdietz> The analogous tool in the C world is clang-tidy
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<pfdietz> Although that can be a bit more semantic.
<ebrasca> pfdietz: Is there some tool for detecting duplication in code?
<pfdietz> Clone detectors? Lots of work on that in general. Dont know about for Common Lisp specifically.
<ebrasca> mmm run some detector of duplication on all cl libraries and get better code.
<pfdietz> I'd be happy to start with getting rid of package name duplication. :)
<ebrasca> |3b|: Do you know how I can start making vulkan for mezzano OS?
<pjb> |3b|: use something like: https://pastebin.com/vYhbL47s
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<ebrasca> |3b|: Have in mind I have done bad fat32 implementation and part of ext for mezzano.
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<pjb> I guess something like my electric-+-suppress https://pastebin.com/vYhbL47s could be achieved with abbrev too.
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<hectorhonn> how do i specify that a function returns a list of integers?
<beach> You can't.
<beach> ... unless, of course, the length of the list is constant.
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<hectorhonn> beach: oh dear. how about a function that returns an integer?
<beach> Sure.
<beach> Why do you care so much about specifying that? Just make sure that it does return an integer or a list of integers.
<hectorhonn> it would make it easy to read
<hectorhonn> instead of reading the entire function, just look at the signature
<beach> Put it in a comment then.
<hectorhonn> hmm, so its like python then
<hectorhonn> beach: thanks!
<beach> hectorhonn: Some authors claim that statically typed languages force the programmer to supply information early on in a project; information that is then very likely to change later.
<beach> More often than not, the information is about representation of objects, which is an implementation detail that can change later. If you want to supply type information, you should do it in terms of the abstract types of your protocol.
<hectorhonn> beach: true. on the other hand, changing the return type of a function would require a change at all call sites, so imho its better to have that kind of information supplied early during design and set in stone. then write an wrapper as an abstraction for the function if things do change
<hectorhonn> beach: yup, the abstract types of the protocol, that's what i meant
<beach> A list of integers is hardly an abstract type.
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<hectorhonn> well.. technically its not very abstract :D
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<scymtym> pfdietz: thank you for the idea. prototyping this revealed a few shortcomings in eclector: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/bad-reader-conditionals.png
<pfdietz> 'todo' and 'later' were coming out as nil?
<scymtym> no, i explicitly added those to the rule
<pfdietz> Ah ok
<scymtym> the shortcomings were related to the fact that this reader client does not use host symbols or packages
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<jcowan> beach: that definition doesn't seem to be particularly CL-centric; I think it could apply to almost any language with (dynamic) types.
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<verisimilitude> That's effectively what I thought, as well.
* beach doesn't know what is being referred to.
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<MoziM> is Univac 1100 Lisp still relavent to modern lisps? www.frobenius.com/source.htm
<beach> No
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<ggole> "Interesting" source, with the manual namespacing and mixed brackets
<pjb> MoziM: however, Univac were nice computers. It would be fun to implement (or find) an emulator, and run this lisp.
<pjb> Also, the compiler is written in lisp, so you could easily write a driver to run it in CL…
<pjb> (with some reader macros ;-))
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<MoziM> is this an accurate way to summarize the "LISP" way of thinking? still trying to get my head around it https://i.imgur.com/m2BmyGa.png
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<jmercouris> (cl-string-match:match-re "\:" "https://www.google.com") --> NIL
<jmercouris> should It not be matching? I'm escaping ":" with "\"
<jmercouris> cl-string-match uses pcre, just for reference
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<drmeister> Hey folks - bordeaux-threads *default-special-bindings* is confusing me - in what thread are the forms supposed to be evaluated?
<drmeister> It says in the documentation for *default-special-bindings*: "Forms are evaluated in the new thread or in the calling thread? Standard contents of this list: print/reader control, etc. Can borrow the Franz equivalent?"
<drmeister> What the heck kind of documentation is that?
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<drmeister> It makes more sense to me to evaluate the forms in the parent thread because then bindings like ( ('*print-pretty* . *print-pretty*)) will get the value of the *print-pretty* binding of the parent. If you evaluate *print-pretty* in the child thread - then you will get the global value.
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<beach> MoziM: No, that looks totally wrong. And we don't write it "LISP" anymore. We write it "Lisp".
<beach> MoziM: Common Lisp allows both assignments and sequences of forms (expressions to evaluate).
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<beach> MoziM: And the "value of a symbol" thing is wrong. Common Lisp uses eager evaluation.
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<beach> MoziM: And (A+B) isn't valid Common Lisp syntax.
<beach> MoziM: But if you do (SETQ X (+ A B)), then the addition is computed once and the result is stored as the value of X.
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<jcowan> interestingly, Univac Lisp is a Lisp-1; that seems to be a common change for people reinventing Lisp from scratch
<pjb> So, for who searched for a non-emacs editor, here is one, in univac lisp: http://www.frobenius.com/source.htm
<pjb> So, for who searched for a non-emacs editor, here is one, in univac lisp: http://www.frobenius.com/editor.htm
<pjb> jcowan: it's a simplification for the implementer…
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<jcowan> indeed it iw
<jcowan> is
<pjb> tarball at ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp/univac-1100-lisp.tar.bz2
<jcowan> interestingly, it has a non-closed function constructor spelled LAMBDA, and an otherwise identical closure constructor spelled LAMDA (which is how it is spelled in Modern Greek)
<jcowan> so the "classical vs. modern" lambda
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<Bike> ew.
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<phoe> What is the function that does the inverse of REMOVE? I want to keep all the elements instead of removing them.
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<phoe> I can do it via (remove-if-not (curry #'eql thing) list) but I wonder if there's a shorter way.
<Bike> :test-not #'eql, i think
<Bike> this is, of course, confusing
<phoe> Well, yes, that works.
<phoe> It's the first time I use :TEST-NOT.
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<phoe> I have a class object. I want to remove it from the Lisp system altogether. No live instances of that class remain. Is it enough to call REMOVE-DIRECT-SUBCLASS on all of the direct superclasses of that class and remove all methods that specialize on that class?
<LdBeth> good afternnon
<phoe> Hey LdBeth
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<LdBeth> phoe: for you question, I think the class is kept somewhere that FIND-CLASS can get it by it's name
<phoe> I am already after (setf (find-class 'foo) nil).
<phoe> I want to ensure that the class object itself is inaccessible. This means removing everything that links to it from CLOS.
<phoe> Including other class objects and method objects.
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<LdBeth> phoe: It might be easier to delete an entire package, I guess
<flip214> phoe: I think I discovered a nice trick for that
<LdBeth> interesting, so seems (setf find-class) to nil is sufficient, all the other things are mop specific, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/hzQ7RRTK4Lg
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<flip214> (defclass empty () ()) and (change-class (find-class 'X) 'empty)
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<flip214> but then UNINTERNing 'X might be a good idea as well
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<flip214> phoe: alternatively just replace your class with one that has no slots - then all the accessors should become invalid at once
<phoe> flip214: does that cause the class to be garbage collected afterwards?
<flip214> I would hope so... of course you must not have any instances referenced anywhere
<phoe> I don't think so. X is then a direct subclass of EMPTY, so there still is a strong reference.
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<flip214> why should it become a subclass? the (CHANGE-CLASS (FIND-CLASS 'X) 'empty) replaces the _class_ object with (an incompatible) object
<phoe> (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'standard-object)) still has a reference to it.
<phoe> ;=> (#<EMPTY {100A3127B3}> ...)
<phoe> try it out yourself: (defclass empty () ()) (defclass foo () ()) (change-class (find-class 'foo) 'empty) (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'standard-object))
<phoe> then the first object of that list.
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<flip214> Hm, though the class FOO is destroyed, the GF are still here
<phoe> It isn't destroyed.
<flip214> and the whole class system becomes dead
<flip214> well, its definition is broken
<phoe> Yep, but the object itself is still live.
<phoe> I'm trying to figure out how to end its life.
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<flip214> my guess is the best we can do is some hack with CHANGE-CLASS - replace the class object with an empty one
<flip214> but (DEFCLASS foo () ()) still leaves the class available
<flip214> at least all the accessor methods are gone
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<phoe> Removing STANDARD-OBJECT as its direct superclass and SETF FIND-CLASS NIL are not enough.
<flip214> phoe: how about (setf (class-name (find-class 'X)) (gensym))
<phoe> I don't want to play with its name.
<phoe> I want the class object to get garbage-collected.
<phoe> I want to make it inaccessible.
<flip214> well, with that SETF you should make it inaccessible. and if there are no more references, it should (might?) be gone at some later time
<flip214> phoe:
<flip214> (setf
<flip214> (slot-value (find-class 'standard-object) 'sb-pcl::direct-subclasses)
<flip214> (remove 'X
<flip214> (slot-value (find-class 'standard-object) 'sb-pcl::direct-subclasses)
<flip214> :key #'class-name))
<phoe> flip214: it's not gone. I define a finalizer on it to check if it gets GCed.
<flip214> well, do you have a reference in *, **, or ***?
<flip214> phoe: how did you define the finalizer?
<phoe> (sb-ext:finalize ** (lambda () (print "a")))
<phoe> I have called the GC a few times in a row so there's no reference in the REPL vars.
<flip214> hmmm, hu.dwim.debug:path-to-root doesn't work for me
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<phoe> Neither it does for me.
<phoe> Where should I file bugs for it?
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<vms14> there is someone alive here?
<phoe> yes
<phoe> what's up?
<vms14> I'm just falling in love with lisp
<phoe> Sure, it happens
<vms14> I saw a lot of posts of lisp fans saying with no problem that lisp is the best language
<vms14> and that when you learn lisp you'll miss those features in other languages
<vms14> I just wanted to see if it was only fanboy stuff, or it's really good
<vms14> atm I cannot appreciate that, but the few I see, I like it
<pjb> it's really good. But you're asking in the core of the fan zone, in #lisp!
<phoe> Lisp is just yet another programming language equivalent to almost all others by means of Turing completeness.
<vms14> I see the best feature of lisp is that is easy to change the language itself
<pjb> see: Turing Tar Pit.
<vms14> and that is good for prototypes
<phoe> But it's nonetheless a pretty fun and useful one, at least for me, due to its nature of being very bendy and malleable.