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<margaritamike>
Are Julia and CL pretty much equivelant?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
margaritamike: I think they have fairly different goals
<no-defun-allowed>
nope
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Julia is trying to be fast for numerical computations
<fiddlerwoaroof>
CL is much more general purpose
<margaritamike>
I thought they were marketing themselves as general purpose now
<margaritamike>
I wonder if their macro system can really do all the things Lisp can now
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Maybe? Also, I don't think Julia really has the "system" mindset that CL and Smalltalk have
<margaritamike>
I know that they don't have multiple inheritance yet, though
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Most languages deriving from Lisp/Smalltalk give that up
<margaritamike>
It does indeed have late binding :P
<margaritamike>
And strong typing via annotations
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<permagreen>
I will say that I quite like Julia, but it's a pretty different animal from lisp in most respects. There are pros and cons to both (as there are between any two languages) and some of that stuff is largely subjective
<djeis[m]>
It doesn't handle redefinition nearly as well, for better or worse.
<djeis[m]>
Rather, there are a lot more restrictions on what can be redefined.
<djeis[m]>
But altogether it's a very nicely put together language.
<djeis[m]>
(imo)
<permagreen>
Yep, that is probably one of the biggest pains in the ass I've come across when messing around with it
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<hectorhonn>
morning everyone
<permagreen>
Mornin
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* fiddlerwoaroof
thinks that people who want an infix lisp should just use Dylan
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<margaritamike>
Hasn't been updated since 2015
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The github repo is still pretty active
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<holycow>
join #debian
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
holycow: Welcome to #Debian. This is a discussion channel; if you have a question about Debian GNU/Linux, ask and we will try our best to answer it. Newcomers should read the channel's guidelines by typing "/msg dpkg guidelines". Please do not paste in the channel; use #flood instead. Thank you.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
morning, beach
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<holycow>
haha!
<holycow>
sorry about that :)
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<holycow>
my response should have been: anyone here use debian?
<holycow>
hehe, my timing is off today
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<holycow>
:)
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<madrik>
To keep it somewhat on topic, Debian is a good system if you want to use Common Lisp.
<madrik>
There are a number of implementations available as packages; both SLIME and the HyperSpec are also packaged.
<holycow>
madrik, see the post about the snek lisp project today?
<no-defun-allowed>
it's not as high level as numpy though, but it's workable
<no-defun-allowed>
also i suggest you get a greek input method so you can write α and β, since a and b don't look as nice
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<beach>
We think this paper http://metamodular.com/make-method-lambda.pdf is pretty much ready to go. If anyone here would like to appear in the "Acknowledgments" section, this is your opportunity to proofread the paper and suggest improvements. Make sure you tell us how you would like to be referred to.
<beach>
There is no rush. There is another week until the deadline, and it is likely that there will be a deadline extension.
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<beach>
If you prefer to send remarks by email, please use my gmail address.
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<pjb>
/whoami
<no-defun-allowed>
root
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<ebrasca>
Do you know some cl lybrary for detecting duplicate code?
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<heisig>
Sounds like just a few lines of code. Build an EQUAL hash table of forms, walk all files, populate the table and count their appearance.
<ebrasca>
heisig: It don't sound very inteligent system.
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<heisig>
It would reliably detect all duplicate code. Or do you mean similar code? Detecting that would be much harder.
<pjb>
well, duplicate code can differ by the symbol names.
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<pjb>
(lambda (x) (* 3 x)) and (lambda (y) (* 3 y)) are duplicates…
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<ecraven>
α conversion!
<ebrasca>
heisig: Similar
<heisig>
Then you would need a code walker (e.g., agnostic-lizard) and a metric for similarity.
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<ebrasca>
I am not interested in writing one.
<heisig>
A wise choice :-)
<heisig>
Maybe you could use a generic plagiarism checker. It might not be tailored towards CL, but could work reasonably well.
<ebrasca>
Do you have some recomendation?
<shka_>
i think that this can be perhaps done slightly differently
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, it's a jane street project and so it's probably related to an ocaml codebase
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<francogrex>
dears, any plans to release SICL soon? updates are almost daily
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<francogrex>
what's funny is that it's 67% lisp and 30% tex! (+ other)
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, at the moment beach is finalising a paper for ELS and I think there's some discussion about improving the compiler.
<no-defun-allowed>
You can test it, it only takes about two minutes to compile with low debug settings.
<francogrex>
yes I know, using sbcl. but not standalone yet
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<Bike>
there is no backend. i do not think beach has set a target release date.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Then you'd need to wire in the compiler and make a code generator too. I don't know how SICL manages that, or if the test environment/REPL goes through Cleavir even.
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<Bike>
it does.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, right.
<no-defun-allowed>
However, that just goes to a backend which generates more Common Lisp to run on the host from memory.
<francogrex>
I was surprised to learn that closure cl always seeded itself from a previous image. few are lisp implementations that can be build from the ground up with just an assembler?
<no-defun-allowed>
Why would you do that?
<francogrex>
why would you do otherwise?
<verisimilitude>
Why would you want a Common Lisp that is an assembler base?
<no-defun-allowed>
It's like construction with a toothpick for a tool.
<francogrex>
why would you want a common lisp that is based on god knows what?
<verisimilitude>
That's how I want to do it. For one, you avoid the malicious compiler attack.
<no-defun-allowed>
A Common Lisp in Common Lisp is reusable though.
<no-defun-allowed>
An assembler could backdoor its code though.
<francogrex>
computers work with assembly instructions and it is more transparent and clear to know what is going on
<verisimilitude>
Ideally, most of the Common Lisp would be Common Lisp.
<verisimilitude>
With how I'd do it, there'd be no building at all; you'd have the machine code and that loads the rest of the Common Lisp package and there you have it.
<francogrex>
not unless you have a lisp machine running
<verisimilitude>
I wouldn't be harmed by a malicious assembler, because I'm writing my own machine code development tools.
<francogrex>
no one has any these days so it makes perfect sense to be build assembly based
<no-defun-allowed>
It's less transparent, there's much more to read and assembler requires a lot of state to remember.
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<verisimilitude>
All you need to do is implement the very base everything else builds from, no-defun-allowed; you wouldn't even need the base to include the GC.
<francogrex>
verisimilitude: loading the machine code seems grand
<francogrex>
but yes i expect that wiould be only the very base, everything else in lisp, sure
<verisimilitude>
Yes; I like programming without any complex building stages; it's disgusting to see software that wants over an hour to compile on a machine with well over a gigahertz of speed and gigabytes of working memory.
<verisimilitude>
If you want me to go in a tad more detail, I'll tell you about the general scheme I've thought up for this implementation I want to eventually find myself writing, francogrex.
<francogrex>
yes that being said, writing and loading machine code is not the greatest fun either
<francogrex>
but yes it interests me, so please tell me or do you have references?
<verisimilitude>
Well, I have an article concerning the machine code development tool, I've been working on, if you'd want to see it.
<francogrex>
how would you poke and execute machine code into mem? which tools u use?
<verisimilitude>
Now, how I'd like to do it is have a simple machine code program that implements READ and a few other necessary CL functions. You could have an EXT package that exposes everything that needs to be there, but isn't in CL.
<verisimilitude>
As an example, you could expose the data structures used for GC in this EXT package and after loading the functions that will manipulate it, UNINTERN this symbol. Then, it can't be accessed further and such a reference won't ever be created again.
<verisimilitude>
You'd need a loading program that's what's actually called. This could also contain the version and help information. This would be written in, say, sh.
<verisimilitude>
Closing, all the machine code would do is READ and one of the first things that the loading program would do is feed in the rest of the CL package before locking it. Then you have a working implementation. One thing this would permit is customizing how most of the CL package is compiled, if that's desired.
<verisimilitude>
You get the idea now, francogrex.
<verisimilitude>
I've already thought of that, pjb.
<pjb>
You need to hardwire your own ROM, and to make your own transistors.
<verisimilitude>
Clearly, I'm eventually going to need to use an iteration of the tool to write a version of itself in machine code and then manually inspect that.
<verisimilitude>
Well, I'm not worried at that level, pjb. I don't have much option there.
<francogrex>
verisimilitude: nice.
<francogrex>
pjb: i prefer the first video of course. much more fun and educative
<pjb>
:-)
<verisimilitude>
I eventually want a 6502 version of this tool I can run on a C64, which is trustworthy enough. But that's then tangential.
<verisimilitude>
I'm glad you found it interesting, francogrex; did you refer to what I wrote here or the article I linked to?
<francogrex>
ok guys. I will save this to read it again later. verisimilitude yes i saved for reading it. thanks
<verisimilitude>
It's no issue. So, you haven't read the article yet; in that case, I anticipate your thoughts concerning that.
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<francogrex>
not yet. I will and I come back here hoping to discuss it with you. I will try to understand :)
<verisimilitude>
Alright.
<francogrex>
good night
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
as it turns out, most lisps do use assembler, they just don't use an external assembler...
<fiddlerwoaroof>
all the vops in sbcl, for example, bottom out in an sexp-syntax assembly language
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<pjb>
verisimilitude: That said, while as an individual you might not want to invest the resources to make your own toaster, as a country we should consider making our own processors and other components. The case Huawei shows that's important. (and who would trust Intel apart from the US government and companies?)
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<Xach>
i enjoyed reading frodef's assembler for movitz
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