phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<p_l> beach: 'morning
<beach> p_l: Did they move you to a different time zone again?
<p_l> no, illness is making me wake up ~0400
<beach> Oh, sorry to hear that.
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<p_l> I'll live :)
<p_l> but thanks :)
* p_l is currently on job-hunting spree, which is definitely complicated by being ill
<beach> Did you quite your old job already?
<p_l> beach: didn't work out between us :|
<beach> It happens.
<p_l> that it does
<p_l> and some of the issues might have came from sleep apnea, something I'm going to have tested
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<beach> Oh, yes, so! My (admittedly small) family has those, and got a machine for breathing at night.
<beach> s/so/do/
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<p_l> it's definitely better explanation than "unexplained narcolepsy" :)
<beach> But I don't see how apnea could impact the relation with your employer.
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<p_l> beach: lack of good sleep impacting performance/readiness/etc.
<beach> I see.
<p_l> while not as much of a problem in that specific job, it was definitely a pattern over last year
<beach> I see.
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<ebrasca> How I can connect my c++ code with cl?
<beach> ebrasca: With Clasp?
<no-defun-allowed> yeah, probably clasp
<no-defun-allowed> or write extern C wrappers and use CFFI
<beach> ebrasca: My recommendation is to avoid C++, though.
<beach> ebrasca: As I often say, it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast.
<no-defun-allowed> ^ Alan Kay on C++
<ebrasca> I like to program with vulkan with my friends.
<no-defun-allowed> I thought there were already CL Vulkan bindings.
<beach> So it's for social resons.
<beach> reasons.
<ebrasca> cl-vulkan is not complete
<ebrasca> I can't make it display 1 triangle.
<no-defun-allowed> (princ "🖖") will likely work, too
<no-defun-allowed> what's missing? you should be able to add to it
<ebrasca> I don't what is missing.
<no-defun-allowed> How would you implement a new Vulkan interface if you don't know that?
<ebrasca> I know some missing parts , not all.
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<ebrasca> glfwExtensionCount is missing or how make appInfo in cl-vulkan.
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Having a Common Lisp interface to Vulkan won't solve the problem if this is a social activity to perform together with C++ programmers.
<ebrasca> beach: I have convince 1 to read gentle introduction to cl.
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<ebrasca> beach: Probably I can convince them to use cl if vulkan work with it.
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<beach> Sounds like a good plan.
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<beach> ebrasca: Do you have reasons to believe that Clasp would not work here?
<ebrasca> beach: Clasp is not sbcl.
<beach> Oh, I didn't realize that SBCL was a requirement.
<beach> Sorry.
<beach> "<ebrasca> How I can connect my c++ code with cl?"
<ebrasca> If I can I like tu use pure CL.
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<ebrasca> beach: I going to try clasp.
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<shka_> ecl is any option
<shka_> you will have to compile ecl yourself to have C++ support but that's not big deal
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<ebrasca> shka_: for ecl I only need to use flag "cxx" in gentoo
<shka_> yes
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<p_l> ebrasca: cl-vulkan afaik works, glfwExtensionCount is not part of Vulkan API
<ebrasca> p_l: Have you managed to display 1 triangle in cl-vulkan?
<p_l> haven't used vulkan in general yet. I don't really have a working CL environment on the hw where vulkan works
<p_l> but I do recall that it takes a lot of work (in general)
<ebrasca> p_l: How do you know it work without testing it first?
<p_l> ebrasca: developer tested it, and the function you mentioned missing is not part of vulkan at all
<p_l> C++ example for single triangle is 1100 lines of code
<ebrasca> p_l: Have in mind this developer never tried to display 1 triangle ...
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<ebrasca> p_l: I have working triangle in c++.
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<shka_> p_l: well, you can try to build something more usable on top of vulcan
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<p_l> shka_: that's the general idea behind Vulkan
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<shka_> p_l: sounds like a good idea
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<ebrasca> Do someone likes to make triangle example in cl-vulkan?
<shka_> ebrasca: nice to see that you are volunteering :-)
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<ebrasca> shka_: I have try and fail more than 1 time, but yea I like to get 1 fine triangle in cl-vulkan.
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<Xach> Well.
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<LdBeth> Sup
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<perryx> hi
<perryx> what do you think are the pros and cons of CL vs clojure?
<pjb> perryx: this is #lisp.
<pjb> pro: CL; cons: clojure.
<pjb> perryx: try to ask in ##lisp.
<perryx> I don't mind biased answers. I asked in #clojure to
<perryx> too
<aeth> (cons :pro :pro) ; pros and cons
<pjb> Just use Common Lisp.
<no-defun-allowed> clojure has immutable cons, so the bad parts remain bad
<aeth> perryx: Common Lisp has better performance, is more multi-paradigm, and has natively compiled implementations. It's more traditional of a language, so mutability is fine. Clojure has better Java/JVM integration than ABCL (the JVM CL, which is pretty niche) and focuses on concurrency so it's probably easier to write programs in Clojure if they're in the style of the niche that Clojure is aimed at.
<aeth> It's also easier to get a Clojure job.
<pjb> I doubt it.
<aeth> Well, at least it was easier. The Clojure hype machine really died down in the past few years.
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<pjb> Only in Finland…
<aeth> pjb: You can't Google Trends "lisp" because it's a regular dictionary word, and it's also a language family. Unfortunately, it's also often used interchangably with "common lisp", which is often also called "CL" or (erroneously because it's just an implementation) "CLISP". So I don't think you could come up with a query to find CL interest.
<aeth> Even language trends sites often have "Lisp" separate from "Common Lisp", "Scheme", "Clojure", and "Emacs Lisp", which then really raises the question "what are they measuring?"
<pjb> there's a computer filter.
<aeth> ah
<pjb> cat=5
<aeth> You'll still get the language family for "Lisp" though
<pjb> Sure.
<pjb> A little bias doesn't hurt :-)
<aeth> and "scheme" will still get you stuff like "foo scheme" as in e.g. "the encryption scheme of..."
<aeth> I suspect that most Scheme language interest is university students, though.
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<pjb> Perhaps google is smart and if we compare clojure with something it'll find the somethings in the same semantic category as clojure?
<perryx> aeth, interesting comparison
<aeth> Common Lisp is a very multiparadigm programming language. You can write in many, many different styles. It's rarely opinionated.
<aeth> It's also a multi-implementation language. There are three or four that are popular in this IRC channel, and a few more notable ones, too.