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<emaczen>
fiddlerwoaroof: Have you done any work on Exceptions yet?
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<emaczen>
fiddlerwoaroof: If you see my message, leave me a memo via minion
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<loke>
_death: PROGV?
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<loke>
_death: Have you actually used PROGV in action?
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<pillton>
Only in dark alleys.
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<aeth>
So this seems to work as a way to run something in another thread but the consing quickly adds up so it's clearly not supposed to be done in a big loop: (defun my-thread () (loop (bt:with-lock-held (*world*) (bt:condition-wait *hello* *world*)) (format t "Hello!~%")))
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<aeth>
Is there a better way to tell a thread to wait to resume until it's told to do so by another thread? One that's more loop-friendly.
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<pjb>
aeth: condition-wait is the way to do it. However you have to be careful if several threads wait on the same condition, since it's random which will wake on signaling the condition.
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<aeth>
pjb: What I like about condition-wait is that every subthread can be written like a loop, just like the outer controlling loop. What I don't like about it is: (1) it would be tricky to coordinate e.g. 127 child threads since they'd all need their own name to be awken that way
<aeth>
(2) it's non-obvious how to coordinate the terminating of the child loops
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<pjb>
add messages.
<aeth>
and (3) in SBCL it appears to cons a decent measurable amount *each* iteration of the loop, so for something that's a quick calculation meant to be run very frequently, this is going to be very suboptimal
<pjb>
Using blocking queues can be useful to manage a pool of workers too.
<pjb>
To terminate everybody, you just send n termination messages on the queue.
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<emaczen>
I'm using cffi:define-foreign-library and cffi:use-foreign-library no differently than I have in the past, but for some reason when I asdf:load-system my system with the foreign-libraries lisp just hangs
<emaczen>
If I interrupt with emacs I just get a "bogus stack frame"
<emaczen>
Strangely, the compilation reports that it has cached the fasl so if I restart, it will successfully load the cached version
<emaczen>
Any suggestions on how I can figure out what is hanging?
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<emaczen>
It looks like the use-foreign-library form is what is hanging (if I comment it out and try asdf:load-system) but even when I leave it in, the forms following are compiled/loaded but it just hangs...
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<emaczen>
morning beach
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<emaczen>
Has anyone ever had a ASDF hang error?
<no-defun-allowed>
as in, ASDF just hangs?
<emaczen>
where it just hangs on compilation of a file?
<emaczen>
yes
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<emaczen>
Related to what I asked about an hour ago, I decided to try loading my system with my own loader rather than ASDF (my loader doesn't know how to load CFFI, so I used ASDF to load CFFI first before loading my system) and I'm not getting any hangs
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<didi>
Idea: SLIME magically macroexpands MACROLETs inside functions when I use C-c M-m.
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<emaczen>
didi: For me?
<didi>
emaczen: Do you maintain SLIME? Get to work! :-P
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<no-defun-allowed>
rood
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<didi>
Oh, was it rude? I'm sorry. I went for whimsical.
<_death>
loke: I used it once for a small template engine
<emaczen>
What is the correct method to customize when a defclass form is evaluated? I tried ensure-class-using-class with my metaclass being the first specializer, and it works, but only after the defclass form has been evaluated once (which is because of the way ensure-class is defined by default)
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<phoe>
emaczen: what kind of customization do you mean?
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<emaczen>
phoe: I want to run code after a defclass form with my metaclass is evaluated
<emaczen>
ensure-class-using-class does this, but only for a redefinition
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<phoe>
emaczen: make-instance :after on your metaclass?
<phoe>
or :around if you want to capture the return value
<emaczen>
phoe: I tried that
<phoe>
s/capture/access
<phoe>
sure, what were the results?
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<emaczen>
phoe: I'm reading the definitions of sb-mop:ensure-class and sb-mop:ensure-class-using-class
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<emaczen>
The results are that the method I want to be called isn't called
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<emaczen>
The reason why, is because the metaclass object in (defmethod ensure-class-using-class ((class null) name &rest args &key) ...) has type standard-class
<emaczen>
I put a break point in the call right above (apply #'make-instance metaclass :name name initargs)
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<emaczen>
Oh, I'll try specializing the second parameter
<phoe>
bleh, I should not be allowed to go on IRC before 10 AM when I'm properly woken up
<emaczen>
yes you said make-instance
<emaczen>
More coffee!
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<didi>
Yes, please.
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<emaczen>
phoe: What I tried didn't work...
<emaczen>
The problem is the metaclass argument in ensure-class-using class is a standard-class with the name of my metaclass
<phoe>
emaczen: take a look at my code - it seems to work in the scenario you described
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<phoe>
a method on initialize-instance will take care of creating the class
<phoe>
another method on reinitialize-instance, methinks, will take care of redefining it
<phoe>
or update-instance-for-*
<phoe>
u-i-f-redefined-class that is
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<makomo>
morning
<emaczen>
phoe: Yep, initialize-instance works!
<emaczen>
Before, after I tried what I thought, then I tried make-instance like you originally said haha
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<phoe>
yayyy
* phoe
goes get tea
<phoe>
also do u-i-f-r-c if you want reevaluating DEFCLASS to invoke some code
<emaczen>
huh?
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<emaczen>
oh I see, I'm not sure if I want to yet or not
<phoe>
do you want code to be run the next time you ree-- okay
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<schweers>
I have a question about DECLAIM. If I put a toplevel form at the beginning of a file, it will affect the compilation of the rest of said file, correct?
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<jackdaniel>
schweers: yes, declaim is to proclaim is what defpackage is to make-package
<schweers>
what about other files? does the effect of declaim end at the end of the file?
<jackdaniel>
schweers: "As with other defining macros, it is unspecified whether or not the compile-time side-effects of a declaim persist after the file has been compiled. "
<makomo>
it lists some of the "defining macros" at the bottom
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<schweers>
makomo: thanks
<makomo>
hmm, DEFMACRO is in that list as well
<makomo>
"(...) nor is it specified whether they are available in subsequent compilation units or subsequent invocations of the compiler."
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<makomo>
this is pretty weird imo
<makomo>
and then there's also "In particular, the information stored by the defining macros at compile time might or might not be available to the interpreter (either during or after compilation), or during subsequent calls to the compiler.", along with a surprising example
<schweers>
It seems to me that this is so that (say) defmacro causes effects which affect runtime, but not compilation. But I’m not sure.
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<pjb>
No, it's just that you can compile the code in a different image than where you load it, and also where you run it.
<pjb>
Saving a lisp image, and restoring is neutral for non-live data. (and even for some live data, eg. clisp tries to re-open opened files if they're found at the same path).
<schweers>
Running such an executable does something similar to loading, right? Somehow the image has to be restored. But this is not considered load-time as far as the language is concerned?
<pjb>
No, it restores the image.
<pjb>
It's like swapping the process memory out to disk.
<pjb>
a saved image is like a swap file.
<schweers>
Ah, I think I get it
<pjb>
This is why you have this development mode, called "in image", where you run a lisp image, mutate it (eg. at the repl), and save it for the next session, rinse and repeat until your lisp image contains your application.
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<schweers>
Even though there are still some cases which I have not yes successfully wrapped my head around, I like how most implementations handle this image based approach.
<pjb>
The defect of this development mode is that it's not reproducible, unless you have very good introspection tools (not in standard CL implementations, but have a look at ibcl).
<makomo>
just to refresh my memory: :compile-toplevel corresponds to COMPILE-FILE, :load-toplevel to LOADing compiled files, and :execute to EVAL/LOADing source files, right?
<makomo>
that was a subtle thing to realize for me
<makomo>
and what about COMPILE? i always forget how that fits into the picture. i guess COMPILE doesn't do top-level form processing so the only relevant situation is :execute?
<pjb>
compile is not compile-file.
<pjb>
You have to call it explicitely, like eval or coerce.
<makomo>
yeah, i know
<makomo>
hm yeah, only :execute is relevant, but the evaluation happens at run-time of course, once the compiled function is called
<makomo>
pjb: but even with all this EVAL-WHEN recap, is this line "nor is it specified whether they are available in subsequent compilation units or subsequent invocations of the compiler" not surprising?
<pjb>
(eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (compile foo)) But by definition compile doesn't compile toplevel forms.
<pjb>
makomo: not really, because compile-file could call fork first.
<makomo>
pjb: i meant more like (compile nil '(lambda () (eval-when ...)), but yeah, not top-level form processing so that's settled
<pjb>
for example, in ecl, the compiler is gcc: it definitely fork/exec!
<makomo>
so let's say we have files A and B, and there's a macro M defined in A. subsequent forms in A use the macro M, and forms in B also use the macro M. does this mean that just compiling A is not enough in order to compile B?
<makomo>
i.e. you'd have to also load A in order to be sure that M is available when B is being compiled?
<pjb>
You have to load A into the compilation environment used to compile B.
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<pjb>
This means that the way M is used in A and in B is very different.
<pjb>
M can be used in A, because the compiler will use what it has saved in the compilation environment of A to be used by the rest of the file.
<makomo>
yeah, i've read this a couple of times. now i see that it's actually quite a normal thing, but it was surprising to me because it regarded such a common macro, DEFMACRO (but i get that that makes no difference now)
<pjb>
On the other hand, M can be used in B, only because the compiler saved some information in the fasl file, that has been loaded into the compilation environment of B.
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<pjb>
OR, you can wrap (with-compilation-unit (compile-file "A") (compile-file "B")).
<makomo>
pjb: mhm, makes sense
<pjb>
But notice that how the enviroments are segregated is entirely implementation dependent. But you find that you soon need to load A to compile B.
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<kuribas>
hi, when does trap_Halt gets called?
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<kuribas>
I get the error: "%PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over."
<kuribas>
(in sbcl)
<jackdaniel>
kuribas: this is not CL-specifc question, you may have better luck at #sbcl
<jackdaniel>
since it seems you hit some corner case of its internals
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<kuribas>
jackdaniel: right, thanks
<no-defun-allowed>
when SBCL has a very major internal disaster
<no-defun-allowed>
one way is to declare (optimize (safety 0)) and really mess up
<kuribas>
no-defun-allowed: it seems to happen when the slime connection is flakey
<schweers>
I’ll just create the class and the assorted per-slot code in a single macro. It also saves some work in defining the class.
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<schweers>
But I’ll have to look at MOP someday. It’s a shame that I’m limiting my designs by not knowing MOP.
<shka__>
MOP is not must-know
<shka__>
but it is worth knowing
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<schweers>
My guess is also that it will understand my CLOS and general OO understanding. So that alone is probably a good reason to learn more about MOP.
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<shka__>
schweers: i think that you are correct
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<jmercouris>
hello everyone
<pjb>
hello onlyone
<jmercouris>
lol
<schweers>
Hi o/
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<dim>
beach: hi! I stumbled upon http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.ps this morning and got to think about your LispOS project in that context again, so I though if you didn't read the piece from Rob Pike before, you might like it... the title is “Systems Software Research is Irrelevant” and it was publised Feb 21, 2000
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<beach>
dim: I read it. It is brilliant. I recommend it to others.
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<heisig>
If I remember correctly, Rob Pike once convinced Stephen Wolfram to write Mathematica in C instead of Lisp. His argument was that 'C is more modern'.
<heisig>
And the fun twist - Pike is now working on Go, which is basically C with GC and closures.
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<beach>
Interesting!
<beach>
My thesis advisor tried to convince Wolfram to use our very efficient rewrite engine as the core of Mathematica, but he declined.
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<heisig>
The interesting part is how even very smart people like Wolfram can make software engineering decisions that are totally bonkers.
<beach>
I totally agree.
<scymtym>
beach: is there a publication describing this rewrite engine?
<ggole>
That particular phenomenon is not limited to software engineering
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<beach>
scymtym: I think it is best to start with O'Donnell's book. Hold on...
<beach>
I have vague plans to typeset my dissertation using LaTeX, but I am too lazy I think.
<shka__>
beach: oh, this sounds like interesting thing to read
<shka__>
but no PDF?
<beach>
Nope, sory.
<beach>
sorry even
<beach>
I suppose I could stick it in the scanner and make it available that way.
<shka__>
don't worry about it
<beach>
Thanks.
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<lieven>
Guy Steele convinced Knuth his typesetting system needed to be programmable. And then Knuth chose a macro rewriting system :(
<beach>
Heh!
<beach>
The book by O'Donnell describes the language and an interpreter for it. I generalized the class of programs that could be handled, and I showed how to write a compiler for it, rather than an interpreter. The compiler uses partial evaluation in an interesting way, in that part of the compiled code is generated from partial evaluation of the same code that is compiled.
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<shka__>
beach: would same approach be usefull for creating lisp-embedded efficient logic programming language?
<shka__>
*efficient implementation
<shka__>
by that i mean something around the same order of magnitude fast as prolog implementations
<beach>
Yes, but not Prolog-style "logic programming". Equational logic programming, which is basically rewriting.
<beach>
No, it can't be used for Prolog-style logic programming.
<beach>
But, yes, I have had plans to embed the engine in Common Lisp. The compiler that I wrote for my dissertation generated VAX assembly code.
<lieven>
ouch. that's a blast from the past.
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<shka__>
beach: ok, thanks for answer
* lieven
started in between the 'all the world is a vax' and 'all the world is a sun' periods
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<beach>
lieven: Well, I did the work around 1985.
<shka__>
i still want to eventually take a stab at prolog style logic programming for CL
<beach>
shka__: There are several existing systems. One by Xof I think.
<beach>
An improvement of the one in PAIP as I recall.
<shka__>
beach: exactly
<shka__>
but i found article with very simple but fast enough VM that may work a lot faster
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<beach>
Oh, OK.
<shka__>
authors even implemented basic prolog-like language in it using java, codebase was very compact and performance was more then decent
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<Ukari>
the code `(funcall (lambda () (print "foo")) "bar")` will throw a `invalid number of arguments: 1` error, I know use `(lambda (&optional x))` could prevent from it, but is there anything equivalent to the `funcall` but which could auto decide between expression-A `(funcall (lambda (x) (print "foo")) "bar")` and expression-B `(funcall (lambda () (print "foo")))`, and not rely on a specific implementation？
<shka__>
so i think that this could be way to go in CL
<shka__>
before that i attempted to understand WAM but oh boy this thing is complex
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<Bike>
Ukari: there's no function that will tell you how many arguments a function accepts, if that's what you mean.
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<shka__>
also, this VM approach sounds like it could be compiled fairly easy
<Ukari>
ah, I got a way
<Ukari>
use a `(lambda (&rest args) (print args))` to wrap outside
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<Ukari>
then i could detect it but will it cost expensive in runtime?
<shka__>
Ukari: would it matter if it was?
<Bike>
i don't follow.
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<Ukari>
what is the "matter" your points for, expensive or the (&optional x)?
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<Ukari>
that way is wrong, wrap outside is meaningless
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<cage_>
is there a way to register for ELS without using google form?
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<jackdaniel>
cage_: the best place to ask is els mailing list
<cage_>
jackdaniel, right! Thank you!
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<noloop>
how do I talk to asdf to recompile all files whenever test-op is called?
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<ebrasca>
Hi
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<moldybits>
i would like my repl to print numbers as binary literals
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<moldybits>
as well as decimal, like how emacs does it.
<moldybits>
ah, setting *print-radix* to t gets me a #b prefix. that's nice. i presume the pretty printer will allow me to get something like 5 => 5 (#b101)
<jasom>
moldybits: yes you could install a pretty print dispatch entry for type rational (or maybe integer) to do that
<jasom>
with typo correction, seems to work: (defun take-bits (n x &optional (byte-size *byte-size*)) (ldb (byte (- byte-size n) 0) x))
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<moldybits>
yes, that is much simpler than my original implementation. not sure if it's worth naming, then ...
<jasom>
though if you want it to be fast; I suggest using a constant named +byte-size+ rather than a variable named *byte-size*
<jasom>
and yes it might not be worth naming
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<jasom>
ldb is one of those things that is implemented many times (often poorly) as a preprocessor macro in C, so it's nice to have it in the lisp spec.
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<moldybits>
i'm translating some C into Lisp in order to understand and refactor it. later i might translate it back into C.
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