phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<fiddlerwoaroof> verisimilitude: that's the programming equivalent of a tongue-twister
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<verisimilitude> I think it looks nice.
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<didi> I'm yet to use .*MACROLET.
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<pjb> (let ((let (let ((let 'let)) (list let let let)))) (flet ((lєt (&rest let) let)) (lєt let let let))) #| --> ((let let let) (let let let) (let let let)) |#
<didi> Undiscovered Beatles song?
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<verisimilitude> (SETF (MEANIE-COLOR MEANIE) :BLUE
<verisimilitude> (SYMBOL-VALUE 'YES) (SYMBOL-VALUE 'NO)
<verisimilitude> (SYMBOL-VALUE 'NO) (SYMBOL-VALUE 'YES))
<verisimilitude> Oh, damn; I should've used PSETF.
<fiddlerwoaroof> verisimilitude: yeah, it's just confusing at first glance
<verisimilitude> Are you referring to what I just wrote or the earlier &AUX fun?
<fiddlerwoaroof> the aux fun
<verisimilitude> I just always use &AUX if I want a binding to apply to the entire body; it's clearer than a LET or LET* that likely covers the entire body, but would perhaps need to be checked for this.
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<pillton> Why would it be clearer than a LET when the body of a LET is indented?
<verisimilitude> It's a certainty with &AUX, but not quite with LET, even if in practice a LET will always be indented properly and whatnot.
<verisimilitude> So, it's the difference between being certain or being pretty sure at a glance.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<LdBeth> Morning beach
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<margaritamike> Does common lisp have base64 encoding/decoding built in like python does?
<beach> margaritamike: You are comparing apples and oranges. Python doesn't have a standard the way Common Lisp does, so as a language Python does not have ANYTHING built in.
<beach> margaritamike: Now, perhaps you mean Python the programming system as opposed to the language.
<beach> margaritamike: Then you can't compare it with Common Lisp, because Common Lisp is a standard, and you have to compare it to a particular implementation, or you have to look at some libraries.
<beach> margaritamike: In other words, why do you care about "built in"?
<no-defun-allowed> s-base64 is the easiest library for base64, by the way
<no-defun-allowed> it actually handles utf-8 characters properly, unlike cl-base64
<verisimilitude> No, margaritamike.
<margaritamike> i care about built in so i don't have to worry about whether some library maintainer screwed their implementation up and i don't have to write it myself :p
<shka_> margaritamike: same in python
<margaritamike> i was asking for sbcl in particular
<beach> margaritamike: Then don't say Python has it built it, because they can screw things up overnight, given that they don't have to respect any standard at all.
<shka_> margaritamike: the only reason python includes this is because it is impossible to have efficient enough implementation in the python
<verisimilitude> Well, (APROPOS "64") in SBCL reveals nothing at all what you want, margaritamike.
<no-defun-allowed> s-base64 isn't a screwed up implementation
<margaritamike> i'll go for s-base64 then
<shka_> in other words, you are ought to write this crap in C and then bind to python
<shka_> which is not all that easy
<shka_> but sbcl for instance produces efficient code so it can be just ordinary normal library
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<verisimilitude> Don't worry, margaritamike; there are plenty of people perfectly happy to write ``Common Lisp libraries'' that are actually C and only work on one implementation, just like Python.
<margaritamike> o.O
<shka_> plenty ~= 3? :D
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<shka_> anyway, beach is correct saying that python language does not exists
<shka_> and any illusion of it can be shattered once the glorious overlords decides that any given feature actually sucks
<shka_> for instance reduce
<shka_> and i don't think that base64 is immune to it either!
<no-defun-allowed> [almost useless lambda noises]
<shka_> sorry for ranting
<verisimilitude> To be fair to Python, there are multiple implementations; the lack of a standard means the CPython implementation's C API has effectively become part of the language they can't change and is a great issue with every other implementation, though.
<shka_> i actually had to rewrite calls to reduce in python 3
<verisimilitude> There's even a Python implementation in Common Lisp.
<verisimilitude> That's the least of Python's worries, though, considering the implementation also sucks.
<shka_> i wonder if python will be turned into set of dialects akin to LISP 1.5 story
<no-defun-allowed> probably not, there's not much to change
<verisimilitude> It already has; look at 2.7 and the various 3s.
<no-defun-allowed> other than 2 and 3, yeah
<verisimilitude> I'm vaguely aware of one Python subset implementation that attempts to be efficient at the cost of many language features that can't be optimized, so we can call that another.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, there's micropython that's designed to run on microcontrollers and rpython that's subset-ish and designed to be easy to compile
<fiddlerwoaroof> As far as using C libraries goes, I've mixed feelings about that: I'd honestly rather interface with something like libuv than using epoll/select/kqueues directly
<fiddlerwoaroof> But, in general, it's nice to be able to forget about C dependencies
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<flip214> luis: how about making CFFI declare function types with DEFCFUN? When setting a (SYMBOL-FUNCTION x) to some #'unsupported, and then running (IGNORE-ERRORS (DEFCFUN ...)) (to find out whether the available library exports this function), the old declaration (no arguments, doesn't return because of ERROR) is still in use.
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<splittist> morning
* splittist is disappointed that TDD is not a replacement for thought.
<splittist> Correctly implementing the wrong spec isn't much use ):
<fiddlerwoaroof> splittist: on the other hand, if you've implemented a spec correctly, your code isn't wrong
<fiddlerwoaroof> any unexpected behaviors aren't exactly bugs
<splittist> Yeah. But since I wrote the spec, too, it still means /I'm/ wrong.
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<no-defun-allowed> well, don't write bad specs :p
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* no-defun-allowed has not settled on a good enough spec after two months for a program
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* fiddlerwoaroof wants a nice pure-lisp event-loop
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<luis> flip214: there's other ways to find out whether a library exports a foreign function. Does that help?
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<jackdaniel> fiddlerwoaroof: maybe `serve-event` extension?
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<margaritamike> What is the international lisp conference?
<beach> It is organized by the ALU, but it is not regular.
<margaritamike> When I google, I only see stuff for the european lisp conference. Is that what it's called now?
<beach> No, they are different.
<margaritamike> Why isn't it regular?
<beach> Because the ALU is not sufficiently well organized.
<margaritamike> Is it a mailing group or something?
<beach> You may ask stylewarning about it. I think he was the president at some point.
<beach> ?
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<beach> The ALU is the Association of Lisp Users. It's an association.
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<margaritamike> Do they keep in communication of a mailing list?
<margaritamike> s/of/over
<beach> I don't know. Ask stylewarning.
<margaritamike> Hi stylewarning. How does the ALU keep in contact. What is something they have done recently?
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<beach> margaritamike: Why do you care?
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<margaritamike> I was reading snippets of a paper and saw one of its references was "in proceedings of the 2009 international lisp conference"
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<margaritamike> alexy radul and sussman's propagator paper is the reference paper i'm talking about
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<shka__> sussman of scheme fame?
<margaritamike> sure
<shka__> hm
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<tempate> Hello. Is it possible to execute one of the loop actions (e.g. appending) based on a condition? As an example, I would like to collect all a characters from a lisp
<shka__> tempate: yes
<ggole> when <cond> collect <expr>
<tempate> ohh, nice
<tempate> thanks
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<shka__> tempate: take a look at the conditional execution
<tempate> haven't gotten to that chapter yet
<tempate> reading through chapter 11
<tempate> let me read it though
<beach> margaritamike: You should be able to get the papers from elsewhere, like ACM digital librariy.
<beach> library.
<beach> margaritamike: If you are interested in working with the ALU, that's great, but it won't matter much to the availability of existing papers.
<beach> margaritamike: There is a long tech report on the subject. In ILC, it just have been a condensed version: http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/art.pdf
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<beach> margaritamike: One more thing. The European Lisp Symposium is in no way restricted to authors or participants from Europe. Currently, it is the only regular Lisp conference that we have. Every year, we have participants from all over the world.
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<margaritamike> beach: I was mostly just interested in seeing what the ALU is yo to lately. It's a really cool paper. It's also 10 years old. The technology is just now starting to be eaten up by Google's Tensorfloe, so that's pretty neat. Just wondered what recent conferences or activity has taken place
<margaritamike> up to*
<margaritamike> Tensorflow*
<beach> Got it.
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<easye> Starting to commit to public code for the Minecraft in Common Lisp project https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mevenson/mycroft/tree/master
<Inline> minecraft ?
<Inline> what is that ?
<easye> Inline: Minecraft is commonly understood as a set of practices around a computer game that was written around 2009
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<Inline> ah ok
<Inline> there are so many fancy names for stuff, i never am sure what people talk about when i hear names
<Inline> lol
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<flip214> luis: apparently that is not so easy -- cross-platform and implementation-dependent.
<skidd0> just curious if there exists a log from this channel discussing the "Scripting in Common Lisp" article on ebzzry.io?
<skidd0> i've been linked to pastes from here before, is why i'm curious
<verisimilitude> You can always search for it from one of the logs.
<skidd0> where are these logs?
<skidd0> oh i see in the topic now
<verisimilitude> If you find it, link it in here, as I'm interested.
<skidd0> oh jeez this is a lot of logs!
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<verisimilitude> I found it, skidd0.
<skidd0> oh, yes i knew about the article
<skidd0> i was more looking for the discussion
<skidd0> for more insight
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<skidd0> also, in that article I notice the author uses :for :in and :do inside a (loop ..). I've been using for, in, and do. Does the presence of a ':' make any difference? or is it just a style choice for signify the keywords?
<LdBeth> Scripting in CL is not easy as Scheme
<beach> skidd0: It doesn't make a difference. LOOP keywords are recognized by the name of the symbol.
<Bike> it doesn't have any effect on the loop - just keeps "in" and "for" and so on symbols from being created
<Bike> in the local package
<skidd0> ohhh
<LdBeth> add : to avoid accidental intern of symbols, if one really minds
<skidd0> is there a name for that mental feeling when concepts 'slide into place"?
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<LdBeth> GG
<shka_> skidd0: epiphany
<beach> skidd0: The eureka effect.
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<skidd0> well i wouldn't say it's on the level of epiphany.
<skidd0> more like a 'level up'
<shka_> miniepiphany
<skidd0> oh
<skidd0> 'ah ha' moments
<skidd0> there we go
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<skidd0> hey the ccl.clozure.com logs aren't up to date. they end at oct 2018
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<beach> When freenode required users to be registers, the log bots failed.
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<stylewarning> margaritamike: ALU has been inactive, largely due to me not having found a new president
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<stylewarning> We had an ILC planned but the venue fell through late in the process and we didn’t have steam to revive; I certainly haven’t. I’m super happy if a qualified individual wants to apply for presidency to restart ILC/ALU activities.
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<gendl> Yep, ALU remains legally up to date and incorporated in State of Virgina
<gendl> Virginia*
<gendl> and it continues to have enough money in the bank probably to pay the front costs of an ILC at some point.
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<luis> flip214: CMUCL's FFI is a pain in that regard, not sure how to help you with that :(
<luis> flip214: but using foreign-symbol-pointer (or is it foreign-funcall-pointer?) and foreign-funcall should probably keep CMUCL happy, actually.
<luis> flip214: so, try to use foreign-symbol-pointer and foreign-funcall instead of defcfun, maybe?
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<fe[nl]ix> by the way, I'm moving to Montreal in a few days
<fe[nl]ix> at some point I'll get in contact with the local lispers
<skidd0> how do you go about that?
<verisimilitude> I suppose Montreal is large enough for there to be other Lispers, unlike where I live.
<skidd0> any lispers in CO?
<fe[nl]ix> verisimilitude: there's already been an ILC in Montreal
<skidd0> what is ILC?
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<fe[nl]ix> skidd0: office transfer
<sjl> International Lisp Conference
<skidd0> fe[nl]ix: not the move,the getting in contact
<fe[nl]ix> skidd0: I'll ask around
<fe[nl]ix> and I already know a few Montreal Lispers
<skidd0> I don't know any lispers except you guys :(
<gendl> Marc Feeley.
<fe[nl]ix> yes, met him at some ELS
<gendl> as far as I know he is still in Montreal, a professor at U of Montreal.
<gendl> Any Lispers in Metro Detroit?
<gendl> I tried to organize a meetup a few years ago but Xach's calendar thingie on plant lisp was down. I had a couple people confirmed but postponed it until the calendar was up again, still haven't gotten around to doing it. I did the paperwork to have a meeting room at Bloomfield Township Public Library.
<gendl> planet* lisp. The Lisp Meetings section on Planet Lisp currently shows "no meetings," but I'm not sure if that's accurate, or just the calendar still isn't working...
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<gendl> Hmmm, calendar seems to work (http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/) but front page of planet.lisp.org shows No Upcoming Meetings.
<sjl> I organized a couple of meetings in rochester, ny but we only ever had a couple people -- never a critical mass.
<stylewarning> We had a lot of success in Seattle
<stylewarning> Bay Area has had good attendance
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'd like to see an LA-area lisp meetup that wasn't dominated by Clojure
<housel> fiddlerwoaroof: +1
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<fiddlerwoaroof> If there's any other lispers around, there's an "open spaces" microconference on the last wednesday of every month in the Thousand Oaks area
<stylewarning> fiddlerwoaroof: I knew a few LA lispers
<stylewarning> know **
<fiddlerwoaroof> it's not lisp-specific, but we talk about anything people who attend are willing to talk about
<housel> The last CRACL mailing list message was in 2010, and the last meeting in Feb 2009
<housel> (I only attended a couple times)
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<fiddlerwoaroof> housel: yeah, I used the link on the web page to email someone and they basically told me that
<housel> I'm in central OC so it was a bit of a drive
<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, I'm in Ventura County: the LA area is too big
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<Xach> Hmm, someone using "vultr.com" requested quicklisp resources 2.4 million times in january
<Xach> a normal month is 300k requests across all clients
<jasom> fiddlerwoaroof: I didn't realize you were so close to me; I'm in Santa Barbara
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<phoe> Xach: if you block them, that's how you'll get to find out what it is the brutal way
<phoe> that's a very curious spike though - are they running Quicklisp on some sorta serverless environment or what?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> vultr is a VPS provider, right?
<fiddlerwoaroof> Maybe someone is trying to install all the possible combinations of quicklisp systems?
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<phoe> hm
<phoe> that is possible, yes
<Xach> they have made 800k requests so far in february so far;
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* Xach will have to filter
<fiddlerwoaroof> Do you have some sort of CDN in front of your servers?
<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof: i use aws s3 with aws cloudfront as the CDN.
<fiddlerwoaroof> makes sense
<phoe> Xach: which systems are being downloaded? is there any regularity you can find?
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<Xach> phoe: haven't checked yet. thanks to dim i have a nice postgres table with lots to analyze though.
<Xach> the client is drakma, not the quicklisp client.
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<phoe> Xach: oh! That is even more interesting
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<dlowe> you'd think they'd make a mirror to do whatever they're doing
<phoe> well, you can always make AWS respond with HTTP 429 with a message that they should set up their own QL mirror
<Xach> i am blocking the traffic for now.
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<phoe> and so it came to pass that this day would be from now on known as the date of the Great Schism of Quicklisp
* phoe cough cough
<phoe> I mean uhh
<phoe> sounds reasonable
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<Xach> i'm trying to think what kind of thought process leads to this kind of behavior. or maybe it's just an unchecked loop somewhere?
<phoe> never attribute to malice...
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<dlowe> a sufficiently advanced incompetance is indistinguishable from malice
<notzmv> hm what is this about?
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<Xach> notzmv: someone is making several million requests to beta.quicklisp.org. it is a lot of traffic and it has driven my bill up. i'm curious why someone is doing it.
<notzmv> ho-hum
<fe[nl]ix> Xach: could it be some continuous integration service ?
<fe[nl]ix> like Travis, etc..
<Xach> fe[nl]ix: It looks now like they are only fetching ~230 bytes with each request
<Xach> far from the whole size of the archive
<no-defun-allowed> Well, then wouldn't that use the ql client?
<Xach> fe[nl]ix: CI was my first thought
<no-defun-allowed> Both gitlab and heroku get set up using quicklisp over here, which doesn't use drakma.
<fe[nl]ix> could it be an anti-intrusion system protecting some corporate network ?
<fe[nl]ix> fetching the first few bytes then dropping out seems consistent with such a system scanning for exploits
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<Xach> fe[nl]ix: the user-agent is drakma
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<Xach> to me it seems like some lisp crawler project of some sort that is stuck in a loop. but maybe there's something else happening.
<Xach> millions of requests from a vps provider IP
<fe[nl]ix> corp workstations often have a custom certificate used for interception
<fe[nl]ix> so the security proxy can decrypt the traffic and forward it as-is
<fe[nl]ix> but yes, a crawler seems also possible
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<fiddlerwoaroof> fe[nl]ix: do you maintain osicat?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I have this issue with osicat where otherwise-portable saved images fail to load because they try to load a shared object from the ASDF cache directory. I've bandaid-fixed it for situatiosn where I'm using CFFI:STATIC-IMAGE-OP to build the image here: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/osicat/commit/b56f924c5dafa92e6da1f2a91a6b7f133cbd69fa
<fiddlerwoaroof> But, I'm not sure what the best way to avoid this problem would be. It's either changing how CFFI's :wrapper-file component works or adding some code to osicat to enable regenerating the .so when it doesn't exist.
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<pillton> fiddlerwoaroof: The way CL systems load shared libraries is entirely broken. It should be the application's problem.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> pillton: yeah, although in this case CFFI builds the .so as part of loading the system
<pillton> fiddlerwoaroof: From what I remember, some implementations add the pathname given to CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY to an internal dynamic variable. CCFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is applied to each pathname in this dynamic variable upon image startup.
<pillton> fiddlerwoaroof: You need to clear this dynamic variable before saving the image.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Cool, I'll try that, although I'm not sure how that'll solve the problem in cases where I'm not statically linking all the shared libraries into the lisp image
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