<Xach>
you can use just MAKE-QUEUE if you want! that's super short!
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<Josh_2>
That is true :) however I got a conflic with clx and usocket so I just went with using the package designators at the start (I think that's what it is)
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<Xach>
ah, then it is definitely time to make a choice
<Josh_2>
Is there an advantage to do say (defmacro pop-queue () `(sq:dequeue *commands-queue*)) over (defun pop-queue () (sq:dequeue *commands-queue*))? I've seen it done with accessors before
<Josh_2>
perhaps with the defun I could inline it as it is only a line
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<Xach>
Josh_2: there is no advantge and some disadvantages
<Josh_2>
I'll change them to functions then :)
<LdBeth>
it makes nosence to save a setf expander with doing that
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<LdBeth>
a explict setf exapander makes the interface more clear
<LdBeth>
it also makes not sense to setf a side effect operation
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<aeth>
Josh_2: If you have a macro and an equivalent function, always go with the function. If you want sort of macro-like behavior then (declaim (inline function-name)) and you get that. Note that that inline includes the macro's *disadvantage* of not updating the callers when you recompile it. It will give you macro-like performance characteristics while permitting higher order functions and removing a bunch of potential bugs, though.
<aeth>
e.g. (defmacro 2+ (number) `(+ 2 ,number)) vs. (defun 2+ (number) (+ 2 number)) vs. (declaim (inline 2+)) (defun 2+ (number) (+ 2 number)) and for this particular case the 3rd option is probably what you want.
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<Josh_2>
Awesome thanks for the info aeth
<aeth>
Forgetting , is such a common bug because the author will probably name their variables the same the whole way so it will take a third party using it to spot the missing , so that's one good reason to never use macros when a function will do.
<aeth>
e.g. the 2+ macro author might name their number 'number and then write `(+ 2 number) and you'll spot it when you call your number 'n and have to write a pull request
<aeth>
i.e. (2+ number) won't catch the missing ,
<aeth>
These seem to be incredibly common in exactly the sort of macro-as-inline-function trivial macros, too. Perhaps because the author isn't paying too much attention to something so trivial.
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<Josh_2>
(bt:make-thread ..) is the way to make a thread that should run in the background, or am I missing something... *thonk*
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<Josh_2>
when I call that on my networking function it just blocks
<aeth>
Josh_2: Interestingly, the #'make-hello is actually *mandatory*, or else it reads the *current* value of i (9 for the first thread and 10 for the remaining 9) at the time of printing instead of printing 0 to 9.
<Josh_2>
The lambdaaaaa
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<Josh_2>
I forgot the lambda
<Josh_2>
thanks aeth :)
<aeth>
Also don't forget to put it in its own function or be very aware of the variables it's capturing
<Josh_2>
The variables its capturing?
<Josh_2>
I'm just going (lambda () (receive-data))
<aeth>
It's a clsoure. It will have access to all of the outer variables, although if it's just (lambda () (receive-data)) I guess it won't matter. I think in that case (zero arguments) you might just be able to say #'receive-data
<aeth>
*closure
<Josh_2>
O right
<Josh_2>
now I can send data and process data simultaneously :O
<Josh_2>
by the power of gray skull!
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<Josh_2>
or grey xD
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<Josh_2>
I have a pretty smooth phone mouse now
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<LdBeth>
morning, beach
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<emaczen>
I have a lisp function whose argument gets passed to a particular cffi:foreign-funcall which expects a struct
<emaczen>
The "struct" I pass to the lisp function gets automatically translated into a lisp list
<emaczen>
How do I stop this automatic translation, or how can I force the list to be converted back to a struct?
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<Grue`>
(loop for x on '(1 2 3 4 5 6) by 'cddr do (print x))
<Grue`>
WARNING: Use of QUOTE around stepping function in LOOP will be left verbatim.
<Grue`>
anyone know what this warning is supposed to be a warning against?
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<Nilby>
Grue: Probably because it wants you to use #'cddr, maybe to prevent against 'something as a typo.
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<makomo>
morning
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<makomo>
Grue`: expand the macro and you'll see that there's a (FUNCALL 'CDDR X) form
<beach>
Grue`: I think it means that it is going to call FDEFINITION, perhaps in each iteration.
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* beach
concludes that Grue` was not impressed with this information.
<Grue`>
sorry, I switched out
<Grue`>
that makes sense I guess
<Grue`>
I actually avoid using #' in my code for various reasons, so this warning was annoying
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<beach>
What are those reasons?
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<Grue`>
' always uses top level function definition, so for example if I'm calling a function in a macro expansion I'm immune to it being redefined in flet
<beach>
But redefining standard functions is not allowed, so for CDDR you are safe.
<Grue`>
yeah, standard functions get ' for consistency. basically I only use #' for lexical scope functions
<Grue`>
also I'm not convinced that 'cddr is much slower than #'cddr even in a loop
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<Grue`>
there's literally no difference in (disassemble (lambda (y) (funcall 'cddr y))) whether I uuse #' or '. So the compiler probably realizes that just means (cddr y)
<beach>
It is definitely a bit strange to issue the warning and then optimize it like that.
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<jackdaniel>
it might be that optimization of "locked" funcitons is in independent module and happens much later
<jackdaniel>
(i.e 'xxx:foo may change, so it can't be optimized, but 'cl:cddr *won't* change)
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<beach>
Sounds plausible. The overall effect is still strange though.
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<akr>
Hello, does anyone use cl-smtp? I might have found a bug
<akr>
there was a problem with my envelope which I fixed and then there was a problem with Google SMTP denying our requests doe to wrong IP or somesuch
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<prite>
How do people here pronounce CLOS? si-el-oh-es? si-los/si-loss? "close"/"clause"?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Cee-loss is what I use.
<beach>
prite: There are two common ways, either "see loss" or "kloss". I use the former. I know nobody to pronounces each individual letter.
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<beach>
prite: Same options for CLIM. But there I use "Klimm" rather than "see limb".
<beach>
akr: Great that you figured it out.
<akr>
:)
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<Inline>
cee-loss makes pretty sense tho
<Inline>
lol
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<makomo>
i use "kloss"
<jackdaniel>
I use silos, as a plural of silo ;-)
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<jackdaniel>
some pronouce it c-loss, as an ultimate argument in favor of Common Lisp (and not for C). of course it sounds all the same, but it is the feeling you put into words what counts here ,)
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<beach>
CLOSOS, on the other hand, can only be pronounced in one way, namely as Colossus. :)
<jackdaniel>
or kloss-os ,)
<phoe>
cl(os)²
<beach>
jackdaniel: Yeah.
<beach>
I could have named it Unix-loss-oh-ess, but I didn't. :)
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<Grue`>
prite: like "close" but with Russian accent
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<phoe>
клос
<phoe>
or кльос, hmmm
<MichaelRaskin>
Soft sounds weird to me
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<flip214>
MichaelRaskin: have a lot of fun with your new group ;)
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<MichaelRaskin>
Thanks
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, a lot of fun is not really planned. There are just around 5 or 10 repos that are not business logic but relatively general libraries
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<MichaelRaskin>
Most of them don't even change much, because next layer of code depends on them and they just work more or less fine as they are
<MichaelRaskin>
Just a generally good idea to have previously published code mentioned at ELS available at Common-Lisp.net; so not fun, just adding a few lines to a list of repos to mirror
<MichaelRaskin>
But big thanks for helping me to reduce reference rot!
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<drmeister>
Hi - does anyone understand static-vector implementation issues?
<phoe>
drmeister: what exactly about them?
<drmeister>
What's the deal? Do I implement something like a simple-vector for simple data types where I keep a pointer to an arbitrary location in memory?
<phoe>
AFAIK you need to ensure that they are never garbage-collected (unless you free them manually) and that they are never moved
<phoe>
and once that happens, these vectors are static - they don't move, they aren't GC-managed, you can get a pointer to their storage and send it to C code
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<phoe>
and once the C code returns, you can access the same data in Lisp by using the vector reference that you created when you created the static vector
<drmeister>
Ok, that's one thing - but can the data be stored anywhere in memory? If it can - then I need to have a GC managed object that contains an indirection to the data that can be stored anywhere.
<phoe>
Anywhere, what do you mean?
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<phoe>
It is up to you as the implementor to allocate the memory wherever you'd like
<drmeister>
In Clasp there is GC managed memory and then there is C/malloc/C++/new managed memory.
<phoe>
Then you'll want the latter
<phoe>
static vectors should not be GC managed.
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<phoe>
they are the equivalent of calling standard malloc - you get some memory that won't ever move, and you can reference that memory all over your program.
<drmeister>
Say I call a C function and it allocates an array of double values and returns a pointer to that data to me. Do I want to be able to then create a static-vector that points to that data?
<Bike>
i don't think so.
<Bike>
oh, wait, there is a vector-from-pointer in here...
<drmeister>
Ok, this is what I'm confused about.
<phoe>
drmeister: I don't think so.
<drmeister>
If I do point into C++/C memory - then I need an object in GC memory that points to that C++/C memory and all static-vector accesses are through that indirection.
<phoe>
SBCL doesn't allow it, for example.
<phoe>
In SBCL, vectors must have a header and be aligned to a page.
<phoe>
You can only create vectors in Lisp and pass pointer to the data to C.
<Bike>
the static-vectors interface doesn't include getting a vector from a pointer
<phoe>
You can't allocate the vector's storage in C and then use it in Lisp to create a vector from it.
<phoe>
So, nay, you do not have that indirection.
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<drmeister>
Then I could implement static-vectors by simply allocating our current simple vectors of simple types in a non-moving pool.
<Bike>
i think so yeah.
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<drmeister>
That means I just need to add some creator functions that use the non-moving pool allocator rather than the moving pool allocation in MPS.
<drmeister>
For Boehm - I don't need to do anything.
<Bike>
there are also a few functions needed, like to get a data pointer for a vector.
<drmeister>
Well, I need to create an interface that for boehm will do nothing more than it already does.
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<drmeister>
Sure - that's easy.
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<drmeister>
But it's always Common Lisp that allocates the memory and passes the pointer to the non-moving memory to the C or C++ code. It's NEVER the C or C++ code that allocates memory and tells Common Lisp where it is.
<drmeister>
Static vectors have come up again and again - and now with the netcdf stuff it looks like I really need them.
<phoe>
They are useful, especially if you interface with C
<phoe>
So I am a little bit surprised that you haven't implemented them *yet*!
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<drmeister>
Well, you know - I only have 28 hours in my day like everyone else.
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<phoe>
No no, I didn't mean that one - I thought that with your goal of bonding C++ and CL, you would have needed them much earlier.
<drmeister>
I haven't really dealt with arrays of data yet between C++ and Clasp. It's been more about exposing hundreds of little niggly functions for the llvm and clang API's.
<drmeister>
Strings are about the only arrays I've had to pass.
<drmeister>
But I've prepared for this by implementing all sorts of specialized arrays for plain-old-data types.
<drmeister>
I did that two years ago.
* drmeister
plays a long game.
<phoe>
I see.
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<jackdaniel>
w/in 1
<Xach>
Hmm, I have a libboost problem on debian 8. I need a newer version than backports provides.
<Xach>
1.55 vs 1.62
<Xach>
(this is to try to build a quicklisp project)
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: i just remembered a reason why i couldn't use MACROLETs for that thing we discussed yesterday -- package locks.
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: i can't introduce a CL:+ macrolet for example
<MichaelRaskin>
Aaah
<MichaelRaskin>
Indeed
<makomo>
and i think it would be neat to be able to syntactically overload + (or other standard operators) in some cases (without having to deal with package issues, shadowing, w/e)
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<MichaelRaskin>
And reader tricks are also a thing to use with caution and moderation.
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<casouri>
Is there any difference between inherited sybmols and imported ones? IFAIK I have to use ``prefix:'' for inherited ones. But on the other hand, if I import two packages with the same exported symbol, there is a conflict, dispite that they have different prefixes.
<casouri>
And to resolve the conflict I need to import either one as shdow, and I don't use prefix for that symbol?
<phoe>
casouri: the symbol is not the same if there is a conflict
<phoe>
two packages export the same symbol if and only if these symbols are EQ to each other
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<casouri>
So why is there a conflict if the symbols are not the same?
<beach>
casouri: Because when you import a symbol with a name S to a package P, then that symbol becomes available as P:S (or P::S if not exported) no matter the home package of S.
<beach>
casouri: So, since you can't have two different symbols referred to as P:S, there is a conflict.
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: so going back to rewriting the code using AL itself: there's another "issue" that i see here. if there are any MACROLETs in the outer lexical scope of WITH-OVERLOAD, AL will expand the occurences of those within the body of W-O before the rewriting logic gets to see them
<casouri>
If I have (defpackage :P (:use :S)), does exported symbols in S all become P:symbol? Because when I use them in P I use S:symbol.
<MichaelRaskin>
makomo: but on-function-form-pre may choose to do something with them
<beach>
casouri: If you do that, then you never need the :USE S. Which is the best way anyway.
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: right, but can i reliably (taking of course the inherent limitations of code walking) tell whether an operator is a macro or not?
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: i saw that there's a metanv function that gives you "function-like" entries
<makomo>
what about macros within the global environment?
<beach>
casouri: :USE S means that you want to import them to P so that you can use them inside P without a prefix, our from outside P with prefix P:.
<MichaelRaskin>
makomo: what kind of logic do you actually want?
<MichaelRaskin>
Do you want to overload macros or not?
<casouri>
Oh! I didn't know that. But how do I use the functions in other packages then?
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: to rewrite every operator, whether it is a function or a macro
<MichaelRaskin>
on-function-like-form-pre
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: oh, you mean i can just use that one for both of them
<beach>
casouri: As S:<name>
<MichaelRaskin>
It happens before macro is expanded
<makomo>
hm right
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, that means that macrolets _inside_ the with-overload cannot override overload
<beach>
casouri: As soon as the package S is created, you can use the exported symbols in it by providing the S: prefix, from any other package.
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: eh, yeah, that's a bit ugly
<casouri>
beach: Thanks, I understand it now
<beach>
casouri: Great!
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<MichaelRaskin>
makomo: I guess you can ask metaenv if it is a locally-for-overload defined macro
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: yeah, i would need something like that
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<MichaelRaskin>
And then also make sure it work for macro-based walking
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: in this case i'm considering both function and macro operators. in general, what if i wanted to collect only the macro operators, how could i tell, once my :on-function-form-pre handler is called, that the operator is really a macro?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you could ask metaenv if it knows such a macro, and if not, ask its fallback-env for a macro-function
<Xach>
there are a few things i really dislike about that guide. it is ok if you disregard the tone of "isn't this a badly-designed and foolish thing I have to explain for you?"
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<akater>
I guess it's very subjective. I tried to consult PCL on exactly 3 subjects: packages, CLOS, conditions. Each time I failed to find an answer to my question. Since then I don't recommend that book. But this paper did help me with packages.
<Xach>
I've found the explanations in PCL to be better than most sources on those topics.
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<Xach>
Well, "better" is perhaps not the right term. I appreciate their breadth and accuracy.
<Xach>
I can appreciate that the approach to conveying the info may not work for everyone.
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<akater>
Why is it that (time (series:subseries (series:scan-range) 0 4)) reports 0 consing, and yet SERIES object has DATA-SO-FAR slot that is filled with some apparently cached results?
<akater>
I know I should read the library but maybe somebody happens to know.
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<Xach>
akater: (time (cons 1 1)) similarly returns 0. perhaps there is a certian amount of available allocated space that must fill up before it registers in TIME. (i don't know the true answer, sorry.)
<akater>
Could be as simple as: nothing is cached before #Z(...) is printed.
<akater>
But then again, note about (time (cons 1 1)) is valid too, thank you Xach.
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<Moosef>
Hey I am trying to create a simple web api. Does anyone know a good library/libraries for this. I have been looking at ningle so far.
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<slightlycyborg>
I cant access a slot of a parent class using slot-value. The parent class is defined in a seperate package. I am getting the slot-missing error.
<slightlycyborg>
I can see the slot on the object when I use (describe obj)
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<pjb>
slightlycyborg: use the right symbol!
<akater>
slightlycyborg: maybe you need a prefix? a code example would help
<pjb>
foo::name is not bar::name
<pjb>
slightlycyborg: this is why you should instead define an accessor function, and export the name of the accessor function.
<slightlycyborg>
I need setf
<pjb>
slightlycyborg: with accessors you get setf.
<slightlycyborg>
I've never made a setfable function
<pjb>
slightlycyborg: I didn't say a writer.
<slightlycyborg>
Oh ok
<slightlycyborg>
Thanks.
<slightlycyborg>
I'm new to CLOS
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
One nice thing about ningle is that you can switch between various webservers fairly easily, including a fastcgi one, for proxying with nginx or similar
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<cage_>
fiddlerwoaroof, ningle seems ok but Moosef asked for an alternative just to ningle
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<LdBeth>
Good afternoon
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: not sure if i already asked you this before, but i definitely forgot if i did: does the EXPAND-VIA-FUNCTION macro in your paper have a slight typo regarding backquote/commas?
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<makomo>
the way i understand it, shouldn't its expander just be (macroexpand-all form env)?
<MichaelRaskin>
I don't think so
<MichaelRaskin>
I want to obtain expansion as return value
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<MichaelRaskin>
So the macro returns code that evaluates to the expansion
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: hm, but if e-v-f expands into code which evaluates to the expansion of its body, how is it possible for the evaluation of the example to yield (1 3)? shouldn't the evaluation yield the mentioned expansion?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I write code (that uses the macro), and I ask for its return value
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: oh, also, when trying to load e-v-f itself i get an error because there are nested commas without a corresponding backquote
<makomo>
the given definition is `',(macroexpand-all (quote ,form) ,e)
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<MichaelRaskin>
hmm. Indeed, extra comma before e and missing backquote before (quote
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<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: even with that fix the example doesn't evaluate to a list of 2 elements. does macroexpanding something that looks like '<form> make sense? sorry if i'm missing something obvious. the transcribed code is here: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1203#1203
<makomo>
it evaluates to '(SET-X2 3 (READ-X1-X2))
<makomo>
i'm using sbcl's macroexpand-all for the time being
<MichaelRaskin>
quoting a function argument generally makes sense
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<makomo>
true, but isn't the macroexpand-all in this case recieving the result of `',form, i.e. the result of (list quote form), so that it ends up macroexpanding a quoted form (which iiuc doesn't do anything)?
<makomo>
receiving*
<makomo>
(list 'quote form)*
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<serichsen>
good evening
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<drmeister>
phoe: Thanks for your help. Clasp has static vectors now.
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<dim>
congrats guys ;-)
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<dim>
does clasp have a form of save-lisp-and-die?