<asarch>
BTW, the port 5477 is 'LISP' in the telephone keypad
<asarch>
Perl people used to use the port 7375
<asarch>
Excellent, isn't it?!
<asarch>
A 40 years old programming language can use a 20 years old program to develop nowadays web applications!
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<splittist>
morning
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<beach>
Hello splittist.
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<splittist>
Once again I am amazed by how a short period of concentrated thought is a substitute for hours of key bashing. And how hard it is to carve out time for concentrated thought.
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<beach>
splittist: Is this from personal experience, or something you observed?
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<splittist>
beach: personal experience
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<pjb>
beach: idem.
<beach>
Hmm.
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<splittist>
Hmm you don't agree? Or Hmmm you doubt my capacity for concentrated thought? (:
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<pjb>
Plus, key bashing looks more like work to managers.
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<beach>
splittist: "Hmm" as in splittist is not alone.
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<dim>
well there's also the interactive discovery of the problem at hand, which often requires a fair amount of key bashing
<_death>
a method that has definitely proven to work this past year was to let my subconscious do the hard work.. but that presupposes you can manage your own time
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<margaritamike>
Does common lisp have the amb operator
<beach>
What does an amb operator do?
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<_death>
On Lisp has a chapter about nondeterminism
<jackdaniel>
nb, that shows clearly, that trivial-file-size doesn't have support for ECL
<makomo>
is there a solution to the "package problem" regarding anaphoric macros? you could export the symbol and make your clients use that symbol/your whole package
<makomo>
you could provide the symbol yourself, but then it kinda beats the purpose
<splittist>
use string comparison
<makomo>
is there any other way to get at the package in which the macro is being expanded?
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<makomo>
splittist: the use-case isn't like LOOP. i'm kind of "injecting" a macrolet within a body
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<makomo>
i'm not sure how horrible it is to rely on the value of *PACKAGE* within a macro
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<Bike>
well, defstruct does it, but sometimes people get annoyed at defstruct
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<makomo>
Bike: hm, right. what would be a good example of an annoying case?
<Bike>
well, it uses the current package to make symbols. if you want one of those symbols to be in a different package that has to be done specially
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<makomo>
Bike: something like manually creating those functions and forwarding the calls to the ones made by DEFSTRUCT?
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<Bike>
or just naming the symbols more explicltyy, but yeah
<makomo>
Bike: what do you mean more explicitly?
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<Bike>
like using :constructor instead of conc-name so you can specify the whole symbol and *package* isn't used
<makomo>
Bike: ah, i just skimmed the clhs and saw "interning the name in whatever package is current at the time" under the documentation for :constructor as well so i assumed it only uses the name of the provided symbol, without reading further
<Bike>
well, "whatever package is current at the time" is of course *package*
<makomo>
right, yeah
<makomo>
but that's only done in the case where no :constructor is given so it pieces it together with "MAKE-", bla bla
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<Bike>
generally speaking, i'd rather manually specify a symbol than have to worry about *package*
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<makomo>
Bike: yeah, i agree (in general), but for certain macros that beats their purpose :(
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<makomo>
ugh, it always comes down to the same old code walking problem
<jackdaniel>
code walking?
<makomo>
i wonder, would it require some big changes to include a portable code walker within the standard?
<jackdaniel>
agnostic-lizard depends only on cltl2 interface. but what do you need code walking for?
<jackdaniel>
cltl2 environment interface*
<makomo>
jackdaniel: yeah, the "non-portableness" of code walkers. i'm trying to avoid the problem by using a MACROLET to do the walking for me (but even that isn't really perfect, as i have to use MACROEXPAND-ALL)
<makomo>
jackdaniel: macros such as LoL's defmacro/g! and defmacro! for example
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<jackdaniel>
I haven't read let over lambda, so I don't know what these are
<makomo>
i guess i'll take a better look at agnostic lizard this time
<Bike>
they replace symbols named like g!name with gensyms
<makomo>
jackdaniel: basically, symbols of the form "g!<something>" evaluate to one and the same gensym
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<Bike>
mostly memorable to me because the method they use to do it is nonconforming and people sometimes come in here to ask why sbcl is broken
<makomo>
Bike: indeed :-). i still recall when i asked that same question
<jackdaniel>
thanks for the explanation
<jackdaniel>
I usually use with-clean-symbols macro for that
<jackdaniel>
I assume (given there are semi-popular operators for that) what I use is a simplified hack though
<makomo>
jackdaniel: first time i hear of WITH-CLEAN-SYMBOLS, got a link?
<makomo>
i'm assuming that's something like alexandria's WITH-GENSYMS?
<jackdaniel>
it was part of cmuutil afair
<jackdaniel>
alongside collect macro
<Bike>
yes, it's basically like with-gensyms
<Bike>
(with-clean-symbols (x) (let ((x y)) (+ x x))) -> (let ((#1=#:x y)) (+ #1# #1#)) i think
<Bike>
using sublis instead of bindings is kind of unfortunate, o well
<makomo>
it seems WITH-UNIQUE-SYMBOLS is more like WITH-GENSYMS
<makomo>
ah
<Bike>
similar to defmacro/g!, even
<makomo>
yeah, it does naive code walking
<jackdaniel>
it is worth putting the quote here:
<jackdaniel>
"Good notation eliminates thought." -- Eric Siggia
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<makomo>
jackdaniel: indeed, which is why i find macros such as defmacro/g! and defmacro! useful :-)
<jackdaniel>
(I want to note, that these names are not self-descriptive (to me at least), while with-clean-symbols is obvious (once again, to me))
<makomo>
yeah, true. to the uninitiated it's not clear what they do, but once you know what they do, it's really easy to look at a macro defined using defmacro/g!
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<makomo>
the definition of defmacro! (which automatically avoids multiple evaluation for arguments named like "o!<something>") is really neat (and imo much easier to understand than the definition of once-only)
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<makomo>
it's defined using defmacro/g! and this layering of macros/introduction of new syntax is very nice
<Bike>
i don't think it's that bad explicitly specifying what symbols you want to be gensyms or once-only or whatever.
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<jackdaniel>
I personaly dislike a "magic" syntax which treats things differently depending on what name they have
<makomo>
yeah, this is where opinions start to differ, but i think that if it was easier (i.e. portable) to write such macros, we would have more of them and would explore these "radical" ideas further
<makomo>
jackdaniel: in a certain sense it might be "magic", but then again, that's what non-lispers think of ordinary macros. they say how they don't want to learn a thousand custom macros/languages that someone cooked up for a project of theirs, or something
<makomo>
they prefer to have the various constructs of the language set in stone
<jackdaniel>
I won't engage with this discussion, I just *personally* don't like such things
<makomo>
yeah, i get you
<makomo>
nothing is good when used excessively, but i think there are very interesting things to be found
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<akater>
makomo: What is the issue with anaphoric macros? Is it about providing them from your system or using them cleanly?
<makomo>
akater: yeah. the user/client has to use the same symbol within its body as the one that the anaphoric macro injects
<makomo>
if the user of the macro and the macro itself are within the same package, there's no problem. the problem comes up when they're not
<makomo>
then you have to either import the symbol/use the package or do ugly stuff like explicitly specifying the package prefix
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<makomo>
s/its body/the body/
<makomo>
or, you could write the anaphoric macro in such a way that it injects a different symbol depending on the value of *PACKAGE* at the time the macro is expanded
<akater>
makomo: I never exported anaphoric macros but I would export the symbol without thinking twice. Or maybe used a keyword symbol.
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<makomo>
i'm not sure if there are any radically different solutions
<makomo>
akater: i guess, but it annoys me a bit, especially when the anaphoric macro is there to ease the writing of certain stuff/provide syntactic shortcuts
<makomo>
then you usually have short non-unique names which might end up clashing if other packages export them as well
<jackdaniel>
are you certain it is not that you overthink the problem? maybe you had a higher purpose for using this anaphoric macro and gone down a rabbit hole?
<akater>
makomo: I'm relatively new to CL and have not released libraries yet but if a user wants a package, they will use the package.
<akater>
makomo: So it looks a bit like overthinking to me as well.
<makomo>
jackdaniel: well, i don't know yet, but to me it doesn't seem like overthinking. i've had multiple problems basically boil down to this
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<makomo>
the problem is that it's not really solveable in any satisfactory *and* standard way, so it's not something that's usually done
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<makomo>
but i think if it was, the ideas would be explored further
<akater>
Actually, I would often prefer foo:operation to foo-operation but this seems to go against the traditions so I'm still observing.
<makomo>
solvable*
<jackdaniel>
what I mean is that either you try to implement something (and then resolving IT is trivial like importing "it" symbol from the package, having ^IT name convention [like I do], or writing symbol-macrolet if you really must); or you think really really hard how to solve it in a systematic and portable way, getting into code walkers and other esotery and lose sight of the thing you wanted to implement at
<jackdaniel>
the very beginning. Of course it is not my bussiness what you do with your time
<akater>
By the way, suppose I release a library which provides something:make instead of make-something. Will this be considered a mortal sin?
<shka__>
akater: not really
<Xach>
akater: no
<shka__>
(defgeneric make (what &key &rest all)) is pretty common i would say
<Xach>
make-instance is v. common
<Xach>
common lisp, that is!
<shka__>
heh
<akater>
That's a relief!
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<Xach>
akater: you can get very idiosyncratic if what you make is super-useful!
<makomo>
jackdaniel: yeah, there's a certain truth to that i guess. it's very similiar, if not the same as, the performance vs. perfection problem that beach talks about
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<flip214>
What's the easiest safe way to parse a string to a symbol name? Just READ isn't [or is (SETF *READ-EVAL* NIL) enough?],
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<flip214>
but the split by ":", lookup package, lookup symbol dance is a bit heavy, too (|symbols|, etc.)
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<jmercouris>
Hey everyone
<jmercouris>
I'm having a weird error saying that my initarg doesn't exist for my class
<beach>
Do you also want de-fun def-generic def-method def-class?
<jmercouris>
I'm not sure, I might
<jmercouris>
I would almost actually prefer typing (define-function () ...)
<jmercouris>
then again, I used to be an objective-c developer, so take that with a grain of salt
<jmercouris>
I understand I'm a minority...
<akater>
jmercouris: Nothing prevents you from using define-function. define- macros are often defined.
<jmercouris>
I'm not about to make my code painful for everyone else in the world to use
<jmercouris>
I try to stick to the standard as much as possible, hence why I'm against efforts such as cl21
* akater
binds abbrevs like th and eu to often-used symbol-names
<akater>
^ th, eu --- dvorak
<beach>
jmercouris: That's the right attitude.
<jmercouris>
Thanks :D
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<akater>
By the way, several times I encountered hu.dwim libraries. There's a fairly large repository with lots of custom syntax defined and consistently used. But it looks obscure.
<jmercouris>
akater: what is hu.dwim?
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<akater>
jmercouris: dwim is Do What I Mean, I guess.
<jmercouris>
I'm glad it works for them, but to be completely frank, I find the source in that file unacceptable
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<jmercouris>
I understand it is sophisticated and difficult code, but I don't like it
<Fade>
That's the hungarian dialect of CL.
<jmercouris>
Lol
<jmercouris>
It also makes it way harder for something like emacs to do proper indentation
<jmercouris>
or any editor for that matter, unless that editor were written in Common Lisp
<jmercouris>
*cough* climacs
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<akater>
I'd say if indentation or highlight is difficult to adjust, it is a flaw of its implementation in the editor.
<ebrasca>
jmercouris: How good is climacs compared to emacs?
<jmercouris>
ebrasca: I'm not using climacs, just waiting patiently
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<akater>
I have managed to build Second Climacs. It's not usable yet.
<jmercouris>
akater: I would say its really hard to make an editor for Common Lisp due to the control you have over the language
<jmercouris>
the user could do all sorts of things to sabotage the effectiveness of the editor :D
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<jmercouris>
I feel like Lisp is the ultimate quine language
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<akater>
If emacs had indentation/highlighting templates along the lines of "indent this form like defclass", there would be no issues with non-standard syntax at all, I believe.
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<akater>
Maybe it has, and I just did not discover it. But when I tried to highlight everything that starts with def the way defun is highlighted, I failed.
<akater>
Have to admit, I'm never happy when programming Elisp. Would like to jump ship as soon as somewhat decent alternative is there.
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<jmercouris>
who is happy to program Elisp?
<jmercouris>
it is a necessary evil
<jmercouris>
s/necessary/necessary
<ggole>
Emacs does have indentation control, see the docstring of common-lisp-indent-function
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<ggole>
I don't think there is a particularly smooth way to automatically set that up when editing some random file of CL code, though
<dlowe>
It does occur to me that since guile supports elisp and guile supports scheme, that it might be possible to write a CL frontend to guile
<dlowe>
and then piggy-back on top of guile-emacs
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<jmercouris>
guile is another one of those projects about the FSF that just intrigues me
<jmercouris>
why does it need to exist? it really doesn't, could have easily been an implementation of CL
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<jmercouris>
they could have even used ABCL and called it a day
<dlowe>
It was the official extension language - I imagine a scheme was just easier to sandbox
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<jmercouris>
not ABCL, that one with the manora as the icon
<jmercouris>
I forget which one
<dlowe>
clisp
<jmercouris>
s/manora/menorah
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<LdBeth>
verisimilitude: I guess not using git for development suggests it haven’t been updated for a while.
<phoe>
hey, other version systems are still kickin'
<phoe>
and more than that, they're useful and functional
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<rpg>
Hey, I have a pragmatic question about SLIME usage. Is there some way I can associate SLIME hints (e.g., "this is how you should indent this construct") with an ASDF system? I'm not sure if a CL system can push information at a SLIME client.
<LdBeth>
As long as there’s no other evidence suggest they are active
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<_death>
rpg: generally you do that alongside the construct.. see trivial-indent
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<rpg>
_death: Will check now, thanks!
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