phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<drmeister> Hello dim
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<hectorhonn> morning everyone
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<paule32> hello
<paule32> i use:
<paule32> (deftype deutsch-sprache () '(member :deutsch ))
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<paule32> is it possible to use "strings" as members?
<paule32> or should i use lists
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<paule32> and when, how can i use it
<paule32> (defun setup (fall geschlecht wortart wort2)
<paule32> (ecase
<paule32> fall(:nominativ (ecase wortart
<paule32> (:singular (ecase geschlecht
<paule32> (:männlich "der"
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<paule32> after "der", how can i append a list
<pjb> hi
<paule32> is: (deftype deutsch-woerter () '(member (list "wort1" "wort2" )) ;;ok?
<paule32> hi pjb
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<pjb> paule32: it is ok, but it doesn't do what you want, and it's not useful.
<pjb> types are not useful in general.
<paule32> types and lists
<paule32> ?
<pjb> better use a run-time data structure.
<paule32> ok
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<paule32> and how glue i the struct to the type?
<pjb> paule32: for example, by now, you should have a dictionary data structure.
<pjb> forget types.
<pjb> Stuff like:
<pjb> (defun make-dictionary () …) ; --> dictionary
<pjb> (defun dictionary-add-word (dictionary word) …)
<pjb> (defun dictionary-find-word (dictionary string) …) ; --> word
<pjb> (defun word-meanings (word) …) ; --> list-of-meanings
<pjb>
<pjb> (defparameter *deutsch-woerter* (make-dictionary)) (dictionary-add-word *deutsch-woerter* (make-word "arbeit")) (dictionary-add-word *deutsch-woerter* (make-word "haus")) ; etc.
<pjb> Of course, you would fill a dictionary from a file in practice.
<paule32> atm i use memory
<paule32> (defparameter *nounlist-männlich-singular-nom* (list
<paule32> "Anruf" "Anzug" "Apfel" "April" "Arm" "Arzt" "August" "Ausweis"
<pjb> Your dictionary can also have some smarts, (dictionary-find-word *deutsch-woerter* "Häuser") -> #<word "Haus" :plural :nominative>
<pjb> The point is that LIST is not a high level linguistic operator.
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<paule32> that not the problem
<paule32> the problem is the data storage
<paule32> i could use a input cli
<pjb> DICTIONARY-FIND-WORD could be a high level linguistic operator. (word-case (make-word "Häuser")) -> :nominative can be a high level linguistic operation.
<pjb> paule32: data storage is no problem. Forget it.
<paule32> search for the words in list (is in range - or so
<pjb> Use abstractions.
<pjb> Implement linguistic abstractions, using the lisp abstractions provided in CL.
<pjb> (read the hyperspec dictionaries).
<ThomasLewis[m]> I would use a word class and a dictionary class with a hash table keyed to the word with the values being instances of word.
<pjb> for example. It doesn't matter what you use. What matters is what abstraction you're designing and using.
<ThomasLewis[m]> You could even make the slots containing the hash tables indexed by letter, type, or whatever.
<pjb> Once you've defined an abstraction, you can change its implementation at will, therefore it doesn't matter if you use a a-list, a hash-table or noodles.
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<paule32> this is a snippet of actual work on
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<jeosol> morning guys
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<paule32> pjb: ?
<paule32> have you see it?
<paule32> i need a function, that returns true or the wort2 , if it is in list of noun-list
<Josh_2> find?
<Josh_2> member?
<no-defun-allowed> member for lists, find for sequences, position for sequences if you want the index
<pjb> paule32: we cannot help you, you don't take your comments into account.
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<didi> I don't know I'm disappointed by TYPECASE macroexpasion. I guess I was expecting something more obscure than a COND with a bunch of (typep ...) clauses.
<didi> s/know/know why
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<pillton> Are your types complicated?
<paule32> can "search" find "list" strings ? in form of: (list "Apple" "Mapple" "Zappel")
<no-defun-allowed> pretty sure with SBCL and typecase it's still boring
<no-defun-allowed> :key #'string=
<didi> pillton: I don't think so. I strictly used type so I could use some kind of compiler magic or whatever. Oh well.
<pillton> What magic where you expecting?
<pillton> s/where/were/
<didi> pillton: I don't know. Some SB-INT::* stuff, I guess.
<pillton> I'm sure the applications of typep will get transformed in to that during compilation.
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<pjb> (search (list "Mapple") (list "Apple" "Mapple" "Zappel") :test (function equal)) #| --> 1 |#
<pjb> yep.
<pillton> I don't know how you look at the different intermediate representations.
<didi> "Oh, it's types, so I can do this under-the-hood stuff." *shrug*
<pjb> (search (list "Mapple" "Zappy") (list "Apple" "Mapple" "Zappel") :test (function equal)) #| --> nil |#
<pjb> paule32: ^
<pjb> paule32: I told you: read the clhs dictionaries!
<pjb> By now, you should not be asking those newbie questions anymore.
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<paule32> ok
<pillton> didi: There are pattern matching libraries out there if you want to fix your mood.
<didi> pillton: :-), thank you.
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<gendl> Just updated the asdf fundraiser page at https://payments.common-lisp.net/asdf
<gendl> If you make the browser window very long, you get a horizontal scrollbar, and I can't see why (but that's really more of a web dev question not a lisp question.. just putting it out here in case the spirit moves anyone to look at it.)
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<paule32> one question
<paule32> how can i search list's
<pillton> clhs 17.3
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<paule32> i don't know if it is a bug or not:
<paule32> following:
<paule32> (search (list wort2) '("Mapfel" "Apfel" "Zapfel") :test (function equal))
<paule32> this is ok ==> 1
<paule32> but
<Josh_2> That is position no?
<paule32> (defparameter *nounlist-männlich-singular-nom* '( "Anruf" "Anzug" "Apfel"))
<paule32> wort2 is "Apfel"
<Josh_2> (nth 1 <ur list>)
<paule32> (search (list wort2) '(*nounlist-männlich-singular-nom*) :test (function equal))
<paule32> == NIL
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<Josh_2> (try removing '( ) around *nounlist-..
<paule32> ok, work
<paule32> sorry
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<LdBeth> good evening
<no-defun-allowed> Should DEFTYPE work in dispatched types in DEFMETHOD?
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<no-defun-allowed> I have a type, (deftype foo:true () '(eql t)), but I cannot get DEFMETHOD to dispatch on it, and SBCL gives me a warning `Cannot find type for specializer FOO:TRUE when executing SB-PCL:SPECIALIZER-TYPE-SPECIFIER for a STANDARD-METHOD of a STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION.`
<paule32> (deftype deutsch-wortart () '(member :singular :plural :neuter ))
<ggole> defmethod dispatches on class or eql, not arbitrary type
<beach> paule32: Please use a pastebin site.
<no-defun-allowed> That's a shame. I will have to add a rewriting term to my program then when it generates a DEFMETHOD.
<beach> paule32: Also, please use #clschool. Your questions are still at a very basic level after many years. And there is no reason to believe that they will improve.
<ggole> CL types are rather expressive, so dispatch on them would be quite tricky
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<LdBeth> although (eql #.(find-class 'standard-class)) is valid
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<pillton> no-defun-allowed: You can dispatch on types in https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store. There are a few caveats though.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Lispworks will signal a condition like "Error: The type specifier (FUNCTION (STRING) BOOLEAN) cannot be used for discrimination." when using a function type as a slot type
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<fiddlerwoaroof> (the error happens when SETFing the slot, not at struct definition time
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I think this maybe be fixed in more recent versions (I put in a support request and got a patch) but the Support person mentioned that the standard says that the slot type should be checked, which is impossible for function types
<fiddlerwoaroof> Although, I guess at high safety levels, you could transparently wrap the SETFed function with a function that checks the arg types and the return type
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<pillton> fiddlerwoaroof: Function types don't do what you think they do.
<fiddlerwoaroof> I didn't think they did anything :)
<fiddlerwoaroof> I was just trying to install something from QL and got an error, that I solved by removing the slot type definition
<fiddlerwoaroof> Then, when I put in a ticket with Lispworks, the sales rep mentioned that the standard for defstruct seems to imply that type is checked... which he claimed to be impossibe
<pillton> They are only useful for compiler declarations. You cannot use them to test if a closure accepts arguments according to a given function type.
<pillton> I think Bike has looked in to using them for discrimination. I think he concluded that function types are a lost cause.
<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, I assumed something like that
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Couldn't you dynamically replace a lambda with a lambda that does something like (check-type (old-lambda (check-type arg1 type1)) 'return-type), though?
<fiddlerwoaroof> i.e. treat the type as a contract to be enforced at run time, rather than as a static type declaration
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<ggole> Racket (or at least, some of its sublanguages) does that sort of thing
<ggole> It gets fairly expensive
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Sure, but that's why you make it conditional on the safety and/or speed declarations
<ggole> That's a possible design, yes
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<ggole> The performance hit can be pretty savage in bad cases, I think the racket people were talking about a few orders of magnitude.
<ggole> (That happens when you have nested checks.)
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<fiddlerwoaroof> the racket contract system is pretty sophisticated too: they have things like Higher-order contracts and stuff
<ggole> Yeah, it's neat
<ggole> They do a lot of interesting work.
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<hectorhonn> what's a good less compiler for common lisp?
<hectorhonn> lesscss.org
<fiddlerwoaroof> There isn't one written in common lisp
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<fiddlerwoaroof> But if you want something in the same spirit, there's https://github.com/shinmera/lass
<hectorhonn> all right, thanks fiddlerwoaroof
<hectorhonn> its a wonder how one finds these libraries
<hectorhonn> haha
<fiddlerwoaroof> Shinmera used to be around here more often and I think that's how I found out about this
<fiddlerwoaroof> Generally, Shinmera's libraries work well and have nice APIs and documentation
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<fiddlerwoaroof> ... unlike mine :)
<verisimilitude> Where are yours, fiddlerwoaroof?
<hectorhonn> hahaha
<verisimilitude> You have me curious, now.
<fiddlerwoaroof> various things under my name on github :)
<fiddlerwoaroof> most recently, I've pubilshed data-lens to quicklisp, which is a badly named collection of utilities for building functions up from simpler functions
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I intend to eventually add features for doing matching reads and "updates" to data structures in a functional styles, so it will actually be somewhat like its name
<phoe> fe[nl]ix: lemme make a more descriptive ping: is my current version of split-sequence better for reviewing?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Is something like (defmacro :/ ()) conforming code?
<no-defun-allowed> i belive so, keywords are only variable-bound
<fiddlerwoaroof> rutils, which gets frequently pulled in as a dependency declares a macro on :+ :- :/ and :* to do in-place math
<fiddlerwoaroof> that's really annoying to me, because it leaks everywhere
<fiddlerwoaroof> and, Lispworks complains when it processes the macro form
<fiddlerwoaroof> Error: Defining macro :FOOBAR visible from package KEYWORD { *handle-warn-on-redefinition* is :ERROR }
<no-defun-allowed> fair enough
<fiddlerwoaroof> (I guess I can just rebind that variable to make it less annoying)
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<phoe> rutils shouldn't do that, defining functions/macros on keywords is left for the user
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<dim> the main problem I have with pgloader/SBCL is “Heap exhausted during garbage collection”, where can I read about how to handle “consing” in CL and limit it drastically?
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<dim> thanks! do you know if that works well with multi-threaded programs?
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<_death> seems so according to the note
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<dim> last time I tried to profile pgloader the profiler worked but didn't get useful information, because in a typical small-data run we start a lot of short-lived threads
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<splittist> morning, all y'all
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<beach> Hello splittist.
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<Ukari> https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1178, is it impossible to export function printop in eval-when block in this situation?
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<_death> it is impossible to export functions.. only symbols are exported
<_death> what is the purpose of eval-when and #. here
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<_death> this is bad.. don't emulate it
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<Ukari> how to print message in a thread without eval-when and #.*standard-output*
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<_death> my advice is to use a logging library, such as log4cl
<Ukari> I will try
<phoe> Ukari: what do you mean, print message in a thread?
<phoe> you don't print messages in threads, you print stuff to streams
<phoe> which stream do you want to print to?
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<Ukari> the standard-output
<_death> when you create a thread, it is possible to bind *standard-output* to the calling thread's *standard-output* value
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<phoe> yes
<phoe> look at *default-special-bindings*
<phoe> Ukari: the standard-output of what exactly?
<phoe> the value of *standard-output*? if yes, then the value in which thread?
<Ukari> main thread I thought
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<Ukari> it didn't work as I thought, where wrongs?
<beach> What is *test*?
<phoe> beach: those are quotes, not earmuffs
<beach> Oh, sorry.
<phoe> Ukari: you want `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*))
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<phoe> you want an alist, not a cons
<phoe> so a list of conses, not a single cons
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<phoe> also, it is already defined as a variable; just SETF it
<Ukari> ah
<Ukari> in my sbcl it is undefined
<phoe> Ukari: in package BT?
<phoe> are you using bordeaux-threads?
<Ukari> no, in cl-user
<Ukari> i use sb-thread
<phoe> ooh
<phoe> well, I don't know SBCL-specific functionality for that
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<Ukari> I will switch to use bordeaux-threads
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<Ukari> Is it a good practise to change a third library global variable, like bt:*default-special-bindings*?
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<Ukari> a third-party
<phoe> you don't need to SETF it
<phoe> (let ((*bt:default-special-bindings* ...)) (bt:make-thread ...))
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<phoe> but generally, only set it globally if you really need to
<Ukari> thanks, phoe
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<Xach> when i was young i thought it was weird to write pkg:*foo* instead of *pkg:foo*
<Xach> but now i don't think that way
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<antoszka> does it work both ways?
<antoszka> nah
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<phoe> CL-USER> (defpackage *pkg (:export #:foo*))
<phoe> #<PACKAGE "*PKG">
<phoe> CL-USER> (defvar *pkg:foo*)
<phoe> *PKG:FOO*
<phoe> welp
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<antoszka> yeah, I did the same in my mind :)
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<phoe> *pkg*:*foo*
<phoe> look, that's a dynamic variable in a dynamic package
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<Xach> phoe: WOW
<Ukari> could (let ((*pkg:foo* nil))) works? i get a "Package *pkg does not exist." error
<Xach> Ukari: if the package is nmaed "*PKG" and the symbol is named "FOO*"
<Ukari> oh
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<cage_> i have two systems with conflicting nicknames, how can load (via ASDF) both in the same system?
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<cage_> my best "solution" (so to say) is to define a system that just remove the offending nickname from one of the system that needs to be loaded
<phoe> cage_: yes
<phoe> load one system, remove the offending nickname, load another system.
<cage_> phoe, thank you!
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<phoe> either that or wait for package-local nicknames to gain widespread usage and then for library writers to stop using nicknames
<cage_> i am one of those that use nicknames in library, sorry :(
<phoe> cage_: nah, no problem with it
<phoe> (until there's a collision)
<cage_> i won't i future i promise! ;)
<phoe> cage_: when there's PLNs, there will not be much use for short nicknames since library writers will be able to define their own per-package nicknames
<cage_> i see, so far is just CCL that does not have this feature?
<phoe> I'm getting closer and closer to close that gap
<phoe> (and LW and ACL, but these are beyond repair)
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<cage_> phoe, you did good job!
<phoe> cage_: I won't say it's done 'til it's merged
<phoe> but thanks!
<cage_> :)
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<Ukari> what is the possible operation-options for ASDF? I read it from here https://tinyurl.com/qa4c9gy
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<akr> Hi, I'm having some issues with SBCL's run-program:
<akr> (sb-ext:run-program "uname" '())
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<akr> this returns an error, complaining that it can't find the program uname
<akr> even if I pass :environment '("PATH=/bin"), the error stays the same
<akr> I checked that I have /bin/uname
<ThomasLewis[m]> Is it expecting a string or a pathname?
<akr> the docs don't really say, I guess
<ThomasLewis[m]> Yeah, I was just reading that. It is supposed to inherit the environment by default and use execvp to find the executable. Try providing the full path in the `program` string. If that doesn’t work, try #P”/path/to/uname”
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<akr> yeah, full path works
<akr> but I want to use the PATH variable
<scymtym> akr: add :search t
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<akr> oh
<akr> damn, I thought that would be the default behavior
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<akr> scymtym: thanks! now it works
<Xach> i heart sb-ext:run-program
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<dim> uiop:run-program is okay
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<Xach> sb-ext:run-program's cmucl kitchen-sink functionality roots make me happy
<dim> mmm, I now see :wait nil :status-hook ... and I wonder how much I'm missing
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<dim> I should really learn how to avoid “Heap exhausted during garbage collection” when using SBCL, then I guess I would be quite happy with that implementation
<Xach> :pty is cool too, and :directory
<dim> :directory is easy to achieve with uiop:with-current-directory, so ok
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<Xach> dim: i don't think the semantics are the same in the face of threads.
<dim> also, is :pty meaning that you can read the output of a program while it's running, PIPE style?
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<Xach> dim: yes, you can read and write to interactive programs as if you were a user.
<Xach> different from pipes in that regard
<Xach> the programs thinks it is talking to a real user on a real tty, but it is a pseudo tty!
<dim> that's pretty nice yes
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<dim> expect libs and things, or just mutli-threaded control of background jobs, sounds quite powerful
<Xach> dim: i had a program that did (with-current-directory "foo" (run-program "bar")) but with threads it broke, and using (run-program "bar" :directory "foo") fixed it.
<dim> anyway, I can't depend too much on SBCL until I know how to make its GC happy, and I obviously am very far from that at the moment
<Xach> I think run-program's guts do the chdir after the fork and before the exec.
<Xach> haven't checked, just been a happy user
<dim> best position to be in in my book ;-)
<dim> “just works” is under-appreciated
<pjb> Personnally, I'm done with uiop:run-program. I'll complete my own implementation.
<dim> pjb: it really looks like you have your own implementation of about anything and everything though...
<pjb> I started to use CL too early, perhaps.
<makomo> dim: heh, true :-)
<dim> you might be the perfect example of the infamous lisp curse, to some non trivial degree
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<fe[nl]ix> phoe: I'll take a look this weekend
<phoe> fe[nl]ix: thanks! Good luck
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<pjb> THEY DID IT: A Common Lisp Interpreter Built in Cobol <https://github.com/lauryndbrown/Cisp>
<asarch> I would like to share all Common Lisp files at '/home/asarch/lisp' with PortableAllegoServe, however, when I do: (net.aserve:publish-directory :prefix "/lisp" :destination "/home/asarch/lisp/") and I visit: http://localhost:5477/lisp I only get: 28-aserve-worker: 02/15/19 - 14:58:29 - while processing command "GET /lisp HTTP/1.1", got error Error in SB-POSIX:STAT: No such file or directory (2)
<asarch> How could I get the list of the files?
<comstar> pjb: is THEY DID IT syntactically correct cobol
<comstar> is this cobol lisp? (DEFINE PROCEDURE (ID X) X)
<comstar> sorry ID is too vague it should be IDENITTY
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<pjb> comstar: no, it's me shouting.
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<drmeister> If a CFFI call fills an array of values as in (cffi:with-foreign-object (foo :int 10) ... ) . What is the idiomatic way to get all the values in the array into a Common Lisp array? Do we read each value one at a time?
<phoe> drmeister: hm
<phoe> I'd suggest actually using a static array for that if possible, since that will mean no copying
<phoe> otherwise, cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp
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<drmeister> There's a foreign-array-to-lisp?
<drmeister> Huh.
<phoe> yes
<phoe> and it's undocumented, obviously
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<drmeister> Yeah - totally.
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<phoe> I'd do something about it if I wasn't swamped with other things
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<verisimilitude> I don't see any issue with having your own libraries, pjb.
<drmeister> How do you use it? Say I have a vector of :int of known length
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<phoe> (cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp ptr '(:array :uint8 10))
<drmeister> Ah - thank you
<phoe> CFFI array types are weird
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<fe[nl]ix> drmeister: if possible I suggest using https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors
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<phoe> ^
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<pjb> verisimilitude: thanks :-)
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<casouri> Hi, I'm new to common lisp and want to learn by making a simply irc background client.
<casouri> For that I want a caching facility that can save messags for me when I'm offline.
<casouri> Is there any librarry that provids just that? I've looked up a few but none of them
<casouri> mentions if the cache is saved to disk when it gets larger.
<phoe> casouri: there are some simple Lisp databases that store things to disk
<phoe> bknr.datastore is one that I know of and have used a little bit
<drmeister> fe[nl]ix: That will require me to implement static-vectors. I haven't done that yet.
<phoe> #justclaspthings
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<casouri> I didn't thought about database, thanks! I'll check it out.
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<pjb> casouri: it's not clear what you want to do.
<pjb> casouri: do you want to save the messages you received when you were connected, or do you want to save the messages transmitted when you are not connected?
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<phoe> that, too
<casouri> So I want it to send the messages to the frontend when I'm connected, and save the messages when I'm not. So when I come back next time, I can see the histories.
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<pjb> casouri: so you realize that you need a component running and being always connected to the irc server to be able to receive the messages and save them? You cannot do that "off-line".
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<casouri> Sorry, by "offline" I mean closing (deisconnecting) the frontend from my backend server.
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<aeth> casouri: So you want an IRC client daemon that's always running and that can talk to a client that's not always running?
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<casouri> Yeah
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<Lycurgus> the easiest solution
<casouri> There probably exists one but I want to do some real project and learn more about CL...
<Lycurgus> is just run a client like irssi under tmux
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<casouri> Right...
<pjb> casouri: there is bitlbee
<Lycurgus> and setup unlimited logging
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<pjb> err, no, bitlbee serves another purpose.
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<aeth> There's three ways to do it. The cheat way is to do it in the terminal and use screen or tmux. The proper way to do it is to write a daemon and communicate with it from a separate GUI client. The only-in-Lisp way to do it would be to launch the GUI from a function call in a running Lisp image, and persist the Lisp image, and most of the time it would just be running the background headless client.
<pjb> casouri: So you need a plain irc log server. I wrote a bot to log irc channels, and search into the saved logs.
<fe[nl]ix> drmeister: are Clasp arrays moved by the GC ? if not, adding support to static-vectors is pretty much no-op
<drmeister> They are not moved by the boehm GC but they are moved by the MPS GC.
<drmeister> I might be able to allocate vectors in a non-moving pool with the MPS GC - that might be the easiest way to implement them.
<pjb> casouri: You could use it as a basis to implement what you want. You'd have to run it on a server always connected to the Internet.
<casouri> Thanks, it looks cool :D
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<casouri> aeth: I'm thinking about another all-in-lisp way: backend in CL and frontend in Emacs
<pjb> casouri: I used montezuma to index the logs and search in them, but the result is no good (probably I don't know how to use montezuma, or just the irc messages are too short for good results). So the log search module should be changed. But otherwise, IIRC it should work.
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<aeth> casouri: Instead of using an inferior-lisp from Emacs, you can use SLIME+swank to talk to an existing running Common Lisp afaik (I never had to do that, though). If you persist that Lisp, you can always have that Lisp log, but only have a UI when it is launched from SLIME (or you could even write a SLIME-like Emacs UI that uses swank directly as your IRC client).
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<pjb> casouri: for example, you could add a "replay" command that would replay the messages from a given data or criteria.
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<fe[nl]ix> drmeister: yay for MPS
<casouri> pjb: Yeah that's really useful
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<casouri> aeth: I was thinking about jsonrpc at first, but this approach is much cooler :) I'll see how to get it to work.
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<aeth> drmeister: I think fe[nl]ix's approach is the generally used one. e.g. I moved my game engine to static-vectors for textures and geometry when I did a large terrain test and it took a noticable load time (at least tens of seconds, if not more) to a < 1 second load time by eliminating array copying.
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<phoe> okay
<phoe> the heresy that LIST-NAMED-CLASS is, is now compliant with ANSI CL
<pjb> casouri: I'm running botihn in #hn ; /join #hn ; /msg botihn help ; notice that both botil and botihn are AGPL3, so you can get the sources.
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<casouri> Thanks, let me see...
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<drmeister> Why do I need static vectors though - the data won't move while the library call is writing into it.
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<phoe> drmeister: so you can access the data in Lisp without any copying
<phoe> and copying = slow and consing
<aeth> drmeister: Even if you don't, the ways available are general purpose so you wind up with static or copying as your choices.
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<fe[nl]ix> drmeister: to be able to use foreign memory as a Lisp array instead of using the FFI
<fe[nl]ix> that can sometimes be very convenient and avoids unnecessary copying
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<drmeister> Thankss
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