<ym>
How do I check if given expression is a type specifier?
<Bike>
no reliable way to do that
<ym>
Nice.
<Bike>
why do you want to?
<ym>
Just curious. Can't imaging when it could be useful.
<Bike>
i see.
<ym>
For example, I have a class with array-slot and type of elements of this slot may be set with initialization or may be derived wile initialization. Then I want to have a slot containing a type which was set with make-instance.
<ym>
I can have a 1-element array just to hold the type, but it seems kludgely
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<gilberth>
A very bold way, would be: (defun my-type-specifier-p (type) (not (nth-value 1 (ignore-errors (typep nil type)))))
<gilberth>
CCL has ccl:type-specifier-p alread thus I named my function my-type-specifier-p.
<Bike>
typep has undefined effects if you don't give it a type specifier. it might not signal an error.
<gilberth>
Sure.
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<stevencc>
what's wrong with "Unexpected HTTP status" when i run (ql:quickload 'repl-utilities)? anyone can help me?
<actuallybatman>
stevencc: works on my machine™
<actuallybatman>
maybe it's network instability, or a bad firewall...
<stevencc>
but in the past, I could run this program correctly.
<stevencc>
It works in browsers when i download the package
<actuallybatman>
do you know what the status was?
<stevencc>
the status is 403
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<actuallybatman>
ｆｏｒｂｉｄｄｅｎ！ :o
<actuallybatman>
yeah, I've never had the quicklisp client give me that.
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<stevencc>
yes, I'm also depressed
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<XachX>
stevencc: likely a proxy
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<Ukari>
would it hurt the performance if I use a :include option in (defstruct (bar (:include foo))) to make "bar" as the nickname to export in package instead of "foo"?
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<loke>
Ukari: No
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<LdBeth>
Good evening
<Josh_2>
3am here
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<loke>
11 here
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<verisimilitude>
The real answer is probably not, but maybe, Ukari.
<emaczen>
eschatologist: Can you elaborate on what code should be called from the main thread and what code should not?
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<gilberth>
beach: I am at sleep. Good to see you too.
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<beach>
Bah, I am here all the time. :)
<beach>
gilberth: What are you working on these days?
<beach>
with respect to Common Lisp, I mean.
<gilberth>
Not all the time, when I am awak, you sleep, when I sleep you are awake. Seems like we do not share a common time zone ;-)
<beach>
Heh.
<gilberth>
But, yes. I figure that the last key, I will ever type will be the ")" key. You need to close your parens after all.
<beach>
Indeed.
<beach>
So when are you going to help me with SICL? :)
<gilberth>
Ask me in two years or so. I am currently into implementing an electrial CAD application, which will be cloud-based and a web application. So I am more into JS right now. But I figure, that JS would seriously need an SEXP-based syntax.
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<beach>
Oh, is this paid work? If so, that's great!
<gilberth>
Na, this is not paid. I pay myself. Perhaps I could make some money from that, who knows?
* beach
puts a note in his calendar for February 22 2021.
<gilberth>
LOL, sorry.
<beach>
Ah, OK.
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<gilberth>
Seriously, I want Common Lisp special forms for JavaScript. Like, you don't care if a GO (sic!) is non-local or not. And I miss the parens.
<beach>
So why are you doing this rather than doing Common Lisp?
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<gilberth>
And macros! I get withdrawal symptoms.
<beach>
I sympathize.
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<gilberth>
I am still pretty much into Common Lisp. There is a pile of projects waiting to be published, but I still suffer from my illness.
<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
gilberth: I have decided to take some time to split off "modules" of SICL into independent libraries.
<gilberth>
But then, I wanted to have a good electrical CAD system for more then ten years. Currently a pet project of mine is to build a 32-bit RISC CPU from 74xx devices, so I have use for that. And a modern cloud-based E-Cad system would perhaps be something to make money with.
<beach>
Next, I think I'll attack the implementation-customizable lambda-list parser.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<gilberth>
lambda-list parsing is "fun". There are so many variations of lambda lists in the CL spec.
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<beach>
Plus, the standard allows for implementation-specific extensions.
<beach>
I found a solution using Earley parsing.
<gilberth>
OK.
<beach>
I am hoping to be able to generate better error messages that way.
<gilberth>
You love Earley parser, don't you?
<beach>
I think it's a technique that is not considered often enough.
<beach>
My code is working, but the error reporting is skimpy at the moment.
<gilberth>
I have a verstile lambda-list parser. But it is written in a very traditional way.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Well, we know have another constraint to take into account.
<beach>
We use CSTs rather than S-expressions as input.
<gilberth>
Sorry. What is "CST"?
<beach>
... Concrete Syntax Trees, to preserve source information.
<gilberth>
I see. Does it solve the problem that you usually cannot name the exact position of an atom?
<beach>
Yeah.
<beach>
It's basically S-expressions wrapped in standard objects with source information.
<gilberth>
Fine. But what about macros? The macros expect S-expressions.
<beach>
Glad you asked... :)
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<beach>
We take the "raw" S-expression from the CST, run it through the macro expander, then reconstruct a CST by looking for expressions in the expansion.
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<gilberth>
This sounds like guessing.
<beach>
It is.
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<beach>
But scymtym has plans for a special macro-expansion evaluator that uses CSTs throughout.
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<gilberth>
Had you any luck to parse the dpANS spec? I was contemplating for some time to offer an annotatable ANSI spec.
<beach>
I have not attempted to pars it.
<beach>
parse
<beach>
I have attempted to make a single LaTeX document out of the separate ones, but it's a mess.
<beach>
In case you are interested, some of us hang out in #sicl where I can intervene more freely without risking to be kicked for off-topic stuff.
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<gilberth>
OK. You want to make dpANS editible, if I get this right by just having a glimse?
<gilberth>
Na, #lisp is no traffic enough --- nobody will complain.
<gilberth>
low, even.
<beach>
Yeah, my plan is to turn it into a single LaTeX document, then start editing it while preserving the old text as footnotes or appendices.
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<beach>
gilberth: Great progress is being made. A significant number of people are making good progress on McCLIM. Bike is working on the Cleavir compiler framework. heisig is doing the SICL sequence functions and more. And scymtym is doing lots of library stuff disguised as work on a very powerful IDE for Common Lisp.
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<malice`>
Is there some grammar or other definition of possible CL's symbol names? regex would be awesome
<fiddlerwoaroof>
malice`: I don't think so, I think any string can be a symbol name
<minion>
fiddlerwoaroof, memo from emaczen: I briefly looked at NSException.h which has the macro definitions for exception handling, and it looked to me that all you have to do is just translate the macro definition into lisp
<minion>
fiddlerwoaroof, memo from emaczen: the translation entails defining the C struct for an execption and some function calls
<fiddlerwoaroof>
malice`: I don't think so, any string can be a symbol name
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<no-defun-allowed>
malice`: any string can be a SYMBOL-NAME, but the printed form is a little different, lemme see
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<no-defun-allowed>
god dammit matrix you pile of shite, malice`: ^^
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<no-defun-allowed>
hmm, not sure where to find that in CLHS sorry
<ThomasLewis[m]>
It's on pp 133-134 of ANSI Common Lisp.
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<akater>
Bike: why *wouldn't* one want to be able to classify objects at hand, including type specifiers? Class introspection (i.e., MOP) is useful, shouldn't type introspection be useful as well?
<akater>
I don't have a good use case example but I prefer declaring types, and for type specifiers I can't (yet) do that.
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<malice`>
ThomasLewis[m]: thanks!
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<beach>
malice`: Even if you just mean what can be read as a symbol, there is no regular expression for it.
<beach>
Consider what the reader does when it sees the three letters abc.
<beach>
If the *read-base* is 10, the reader returns a symbol.
<beach>
If the *read-base* is 16, it returns an integer.
<malice`>
beach: I am trying to write TextMate grammar for CL. I think I'll go with something basic like "anything not whitespace or between ||"
<beach>
Such an attempt will always be an approximation.
<beach>
I created a grammar for Common Lisp for (first) Climacs so that I could parse buffers containing Common Lisp code, but, again, it is a gross approximation. That's why, for Second Climacs, I am using a version of the Common Lisp READ function to parse the buffer contents. Then it will be very precise.
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<pjb>
akater: type specifiers are not objects. They're specifiers for virtual objects: types are not first class objects in CL.
<malice`>
That's true. Thanks for the pointers.
<pjb>
(defclass foo () ()) (find-class 'foo) #| --> #<standard-class foo> |# (deftype bar () '(member bar)) (find-type 'bar) #| ERROR: Undefined function find-type called with arguments (bar) . |#
<pjb>
That said, nothing prevents us to implement type objects.
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<pjb>
That's probably the first thing a compiler writer would do, I guess…
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<ym>
Are sharplispers in the chat? I'm using last CLX from quicklisp, having an issue, but not sure why can't I find similar code on github even taking in account modifying date. The file is clx.lisp in root project directory. On my host system there is missing ":initarg :visual-info" slot parameters in colormap class definition (IIUC), though there is no such place in gethub version.
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<beach>
ym: You may want to talk to jackdaniel when he comes around.
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<ym>
I'll better write an issue on github.
<beach>
Sure.
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<jackdaniel>
ym: are you certain that you have the newest ql distribution?
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<jackdaniel>
that was a regression fixed months ago
<jackdaniel>
well, "months" suggests many, around 2018-12-03
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<ym>
clx-20181210-git
<ym>
And yes, ql says everything's up.
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<jackdaniel>
cache maybe? or ql didn't pull the changes? I don't know really
<jackdaniel>
as you can tell yourself, repository has def-clx-class (not defclass)
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<ym>
Ok then.
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<shrdlu68>
Morning, what was the name of that CL shell? Something like bash, but written in CL and with CL integration.
<shrdlu68>
Where exactly is sb-ext:*posix-argv* documented?
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<makomo>
morning
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<schweers>
how do I specify a relative path which goes up the hierarchy? I.e. what one would do with ".." on unix.
<schweers>
I have a pathname to a file and want to access a file relative to it. The relative path is something like this (using unix syntax): "../../foo/bar.txt"
<schweers>
Now that I think of it, I guess I can just apply some list operations on the directory component of the given file.
<lieven>
I don't think that's standardized. Back in the days there were operating systems that did not have that capability
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<jdz>
schweers: something like (merge-pathnames "../../foo/bar.txt" <the-other-pathname>)?
<loke>
SBCL throws “:BACK can't be represented in namestrings”
<schweers>
Ah, so :back and :up are standard, cool
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<loke>
schweers: :UP is SBCL-specific I think.
<schweers>
slhs 19.2.2.4.3 disagrees
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<schweers>
s/slhs/clhs/
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<makomo>
how come some implementations' MACROEXPAND-ALL function doesn't take an environment object?
<makomo>
that seems like an essential part of the functionality to me
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<beach>
What kind of environment would you pass to it?
<beach>
In SICL, we have multiple first-class global environments, but most implementations have a single global environment.
<beach>
And I don't see a use for MACROEXPAND-ALL in a compile-time environment.
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<beach>
makomo: Am I missing something?
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<flip214>
beach: well, wouldn't the dynamic environment specify which forms (and symbols!) are to be expanded?
<flip214>
eg. within a SYMBOL-MACROLET?
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<beach>
You mean the lexical compile-time environment? Sure, but then you are already in a language processor, so you would typically do macroexapand-1 as you go.
<makomo>
beach: a lexical environment for example. a code walking macro might want to walk its body, but with the definitions from its surrounding lexical scope in effect (this is what you almost always want to do)
<beach>
But, again, you are already doing some language processing, so you would macroexpand-1 as you go.
<beach>
Why would you want to do macroexpand-all in such an environment?
<beach>
It would be the result of your full processing anyway.
<beach>
A code walker always accomplishes the equivalent of macroexpand-all, at least for the forms that it processes. Macroexpand-all is just one possible output of a code walker.
<makomo>
beach: hm, what do you mean by "you're already in a language processor"? i'm looking at this from a user's point of view. we know that it's impossible to portably handle code walking as its impossible in certain cases for the code walker to pass the right environment object to the macro expansion function (essentially, because of the opaqueness of the environment objects)
<makomo>
an implementation's macroexpand-all could be used to build a proper code walker, because macroexpand-all would essentially handle the environment augmentation (rather than the walker having to keep track of the environment using its own representation)
<beach>
But to implement macroexpand-all, you need a code walker.
<beach>
So it is usually done the other way around.
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<makomo>
right :-). that's why i would rely on macroexpand-all being implemented within the implementation (as a nonstandard thing, of course)
<beach>
I see.
<makomo>
ah, yes, that's true for the implementation's own code walker, indeed
<beach>
Well, I think the thinking behind it that you would then just use the code walker instead.
<beach>
It would be very strange for an implementation to provide macroexpand-all and not provide an interface to the code walker used to implement it.
<makomo>
beach: hm, maybe, but i'm not completely sure as i haven't checked the various implementations. i was looking again at the trivial-macroexpand-all library and what caught my eye is that certain implementations don't support the environment parameter for macroexpand-all
<makomo>
i thought that was pretty weird, because both macroexpand and macroexpand-1 do for example
<beach>
Right, because it would be called only at the top level and typically only in an implementation without first-class global environments.
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<beach>
Yes, for macroexpand-1, the situation is different.
<beach>
It needs to be called by the compiler when the compiler does its code walking.
<beach>
Also, the standard distinguishes between the startup environment and the compilation environment, so it makes sense to have that parameter. I am guessing that the person implementing macroexpand-all without that parameter did not take that possibility into account.
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<beach>
Probably, that person just observed existing implementations (silently forgetting about SICL, since it doesn't exist yet).
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<makomo>
beach: hm, so you're looking at it from the standpoint of macroexpand, macroexpand-1 and macroexpand-all being used by the implementation itself?
<makomo>
beach: yeah, maybe. some of the implementations that don't accept an environment parameter are allegro, clisp, lispworks
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<beach>
No, macroexpand-all is not used by the implementation itself. That's my point.
<beach>
Probably not macroexpand either in fact. The compiler only needs macroexpand-1.
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<beach>
I don't know of any implementation that distinguishes between the startup environment and the compilation environment, other than SICL.
<makomo>
beach: mhm. still, even though a compiler might use something like macroexpand-1 internally, i was thinking that the reason for its existence was so that the user can have that same ability, whather or not the compiler needs it too
<beach>
Sure. It is common for the application programmer to use both macroexpand-1 and macroexpand.
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<makomo>
because of that, that argument is weird to me (i.e. "the compiler needs that functionality, so it makes sense")
<makomo>
yeah
<makomo>
and macroexpand-all would come in handy as well
<makomo>
"... so it makes sense that it should accept an environment parameter"*
<beach>
If you say so. I only saw the need for it when I used Common Lisp in my teaching, so that the students could observe the result.
<beach>
Oh, it certainly makes sense for it to accept an environment parameter, especially given that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows for separate startup environment and compilation environment.
<makomo>
beach: i guess it would come handy indirectly, just because it could be used to implement a portable code walker (in case the implementation doesn't expose its own).
<makomo>
beach: mhm, i see
<beach>
I was just explaining why the person implementing macroexpand-all may not see it that way, because that person probably just observed existing implementations. And they don't separate the two.
<makomo>
got it :-)
<makomo>
in any case, i'm really losing hope in the usefulness of a code walker that can be written within the constraints of the standard we have (i.e. be made fully portable, without any implementaion-specific parts)
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<makomo>
once you start having nested code walking macros, it all just comes falling down :(. it's tricky to define a class of code walking macros that will work in all cases with such a code walker and to understand and be aware of the edge cases/assumptions when writing such a macro
<makomo>
beach: is trucler nearly finished now or?
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<beach>
Shouldn't be very long now.
<beach>
I think I have all design decisions down.
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<beach>
I am working on the documentation.
<beach>
And I should try to come up with a test suite.
<beach>
There is no way to write a portable code walker.
<makomo>
s/fully/nearly fully/
<makomo>
very nice
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<beach>
I have a video conference in a few minutes and I don't know how long it will last. So I'll be off for a while.
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<makomo>
ok :-)
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<beach>
I think what remains in terms of code in Trucler is just stuff like exporting all the relevant symbols, writing docstrings for exported symbols, and probably fixing a few bugs.
<beach>
And Trucler doesn't lend itself to random tests, so I think I need to write a bunch of test cases manually.
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<phoe>
beach: what's Trucler?
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<phoe>
Oooh. I see.
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<lumonom>
hi i am rather new to CL and i was wondering if anybody of you knows a nice Open Source project to get some experience as a beginner.
<beach>
What kind of domain would you be interested in?
<Ukari>
any one knows how to use ecl's mp:compare-and-swap-structure?
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<beach>
Ukari: jackdaniel probably does.
<lumonom>
@beach i am very interested in everything with AI and robotics also i think image processing is very interesting
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<beach>
lumonom: Those are not quite my domains. Plus, my (admittedly small) family is telling me that dinner is ready, so I have to go. I hope someone else will give you some hints.
<lumonom>
ok thank you anyway
<beach>
lumonom: I have some image processing projects, but no code yet, so there is nothing to see.
<White_Flame>
opencv is a big standard library for computer vision that has lisp bindings
<beach>
Seriously, FFI for a beginner?
<White_Flame>
those details seemed to be well hidden last time I looked
<White_Flame>
but yeah, maybe it's a bit crazy :)
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<lumonom>
thanks so my main intention is to get some experience in lisp coding by helping out some more experienced programmers that are willing to teach me something for my help the topic is kinda of secondary importance to me
<White_Flame>
lumonom: the first thing to do would eb to learn Common Lisp itself :)
<White_Flame>
minion: tell lumonom about pcl
<minion>
lumonom: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<lumonom>
White_Flame yea i am at it
<White_Flame>
cool
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<White_Flame>
also, #clschool is a channel more for beginners. Questions here tend to get fairly in-depth responses
<lumonom>
i have that book right in front of me :D
<White_Flame>
feel free to ask the newbiest of questions there :)
<lumonom>
ok thanks i will check it out
<makomo>
lumonom: if you're interested in AI, Peter Norvig's Paradigms of Aritficial Intelligence (PAIP) is also a good introduction to CL
<makomo>
it combines the two
<White_Flame>
it's logical AI, instead of modern statistical AI, but still very good
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<shka_>
paip algorithms are useful
<shka_>
as: normal IT kind of useful
<shka_>
so they are good to know
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<lumonom>
yes i have that book as well also i am not that deep into it yet i was just thinking that a real project would help me get some real experience in edition to all the books. but thanks for all the advice
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<asarch>
Thank you phoe!
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
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<asarch>
One last question: and for the USB? Can I use both for those laser-readers?
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<aeth>
Although you have to be careful because there are a lot of valid functions/macros that go somewhere else, e.g. sequence stuff will work on strings (obviously won't matter if it's string-specific like stringp)
<aeth>
s/it would be here/it would be found by going here/
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<moldybits>
(prog1 x (incf x)) ; any better way to emulate C's x++?
<_death>
you can write a post-incf macro
<asarch>
(defmacro ++ (value) (incr value))
<asarch>
?
<asarch>
Does it really matter for Lisp if it is pre- or post-?
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<moldybits>
asarch: (setf x (incf y)) ; x will be y+1. with post-incf it'd be y. in both cases y will become y+1.
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<moldybits>
i'm using it to assign and increment a next-available-id variable.
<_death>
you can write a new-id function and forget about it
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<asarch>
I mean, what's the matter in a expression like: "a + b++ + c" or "a + ++b + c" in Lisp?
<Josh_2>
If you don't like it, you can use a macro to make syntax like that
<asarch>
(+ a (++ b) c)
<asarch>
(+ a (pre-incr b) c)
<asarch>
?
<asarch>
(Assuming (++ ...) does a post-incr)
<asarch>
Or also: (+ a (++ b :pre) c)
<asarch>
?
<cl-arthur>
Dles k
<cl-arthur>
"Does it really matter if it's pre- or post-" won't that change the values of your sums?
<asarch>
Touche!
<asarch>
Python can't actually do neither one
<asarch>
a++ or ++a
<cl-arthur>
(incf v) inside a sum like that would behave as a pre-incr, because of applicative order evaluation and everything being an expression.
<aeth>
moldybits: prog1 seems like the way to do it imo
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<aeth>
that's basically what prog1 is for imo
<cl-arthur>
Yeah, prog1 to emulate x++ seems good.
<moldybits>
i'm using a post-incf macro because it turned out to be easier enough to read at a glance to justify it. (post-incf (blah-next-id x)) instead of (prog1 (blah-next-id x) (incf (blah-next-id x)))
<_death>
hopefully you're using get-setf-expansion to avoid multiple evaluation of place
<moldybits>
i guess i just assumed incf didn't evaluate its first argument
<aeth>
moldybits: alexandria:once-only can help with macros like that
<_death>
no, that won't work because you're dealing with places
<aeth>
ah
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<jmercouris>
aeth: thanks for the link
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<moldybits>
_death: thanks. i never would've guessed.
<moldybits>
i guess i'll stick with prog1 for now :(
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<aeth>
moldybits: you could use define-modify-macro to write your own incf
<la_mettrie>
clisp is not updated for ages... is sbcl an obvious choice?
<la_mettrie>
*has not been updated
<aeth>
(if define-modify-macro is powerful enough, need to check...)
<aeth>
hmm, nevermind, I think that's always incf semantics
<aeth>
la_mettrie: The most popular implementation is SBCL, followed by CCL. The rest are probably too close to each other in popularity to reliably measure, although it's hard to measure anything.
<la_mettrie>
SDL with bindings is a fine gfx API with SBCL? or do you recommend something else?
<aeth>
la_mettrie: generally, people use cl-sdl2 with cl-opengl but alternatives to cl-sdl2 exist.
<aeth>
la_mettrie: Even if you're not making a game, #lispgames might be the most helpful channel for 3D Common Lisp applications