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<hectorhonn>
morning everyone
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<akoana>
good morning
<beach>
Hello akoana.
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<beach>
How is working through PAIP going?
<akoana>
oh, I'm progressing very slowly but steady thanks, currently I'm playing around with ltk
<akoana>
s/steady/steadily/
<beach>
I am sorry to hear that you prefer ltk over CLIM.
<akoana>
I heared about CLIM, but I'm very new to Common Lisp, so I tried to start with something "easy"
<beach>
Maybe, but as a result, you went in to FFI land with different semantics of different languages, thereby creating a semantic nightmare and a debugging one too.
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<akoana>
I agree, tcl/tk is not what I intended to learn :) Just tried to mock a quick gui...
<beach>
akoana: But you'll figure it out. One day, you will see the light. :)
<beach>
That's the free implementation of the CLIM standard, yes.
<beach>
akoana: There is also a #clim channel.
<akoana>
I'll have a look into it (I did already a while before, but was in doubt about matureness)
<akoana>
pjb: thanks for the link
<akoana>
I'd like to create a gui with database "bindings" (crud), I still don't know what's better, doing it web-based with hunchentoot or with something like CLIM
<beach>
Well, if you want it to be accessible as a website, CLIM is not the way to go.
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<pjb>
You can also just use *query-io* and make it a cli program.
<akoana>
the amount of packages for Common Lisp is amazing - but hard for a newbee to select
<pjb>
Why do you want to make it a GUI?
<beach>
akoana: The only way I know to pick the right library is to ask here.
<akoana>
I browsed cliki, but its hard to judge for a beginner what to use...
<beach>
Yes, I disagree that browsing cliki is a good way of choosing.
<beach>
You never get many negative opinions about libraries that way.
<akoana>
pjb: The Gui should server Data entry and querying.
<akoana>
s/server/serve/
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<no-defun-allowed>
I wrote a web program with a nice GUI entirely in CL for a school project.
<beach>
I think I just had some insight. Maybe there is so much FFI-based stuff here because people think of Common Lisp as just another scripting language like python etc., so that it is really only useful as such. Perhaps they expect Common Lisp to be as slow as Python so that the C code is necessary to get some performance.
<no-defun-allowed>
(ltk's interface occurs over a pipe to a program called "wish", by the way. To me, it's about as FFI as something like Postmodern/CL-SQL then.)
<beach>
It would make sense for members of the generations brainwashed by the Unix "philosophy" to think like that.
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<akoana>
beach: I did already some successful prototyping in hunchentoot, ningle and cl-dbi (for the database sqlite, but finally postgres) but still thinking how to glue this stuff together.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Which reminds me of how relational databases is another disaster that has been able to brainwash generations of unsuspecting developers.
<akoana>
beach: I'm one of the brainwashed Unix people ;), old die hard vi user (but recently an emacs friend)
<no-defun-allowed>
If I could have a minute to clean it up somewhat, I can show you the project I did for school, akoana.
<akoana>
no-defun-allowed: I would appreciate that very much to get a picture...
<pillton>
beach: I think people choose what battles to fight. I also think people don't like having duplicate implementations of functionality.
<beach>
akoana: vi is not the main problem here. But I'm not going there today. You can read this document if you like: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf
<beach>
pillton: I suspect most people don't choose at all, because they don't think they have a choice.
<verisimilitude>
I'm similarly disgusted by all of the FFI ``Common Lisp libraries'', beach.
<beach>
Anyway, time for a break. Back in 30 minutes or so.
<no-defun-allowed>
akoana: this is my school project; it uses Hunchentoot and CL-WHO to generate and serve HTML, Postmodern to read and write from a database, and I think the layout of code is pretty decent.
<akoana>
beach: Ah CLOS, thank you, you are the author, I suppose?
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, beach wrote the CLOSOS specification.
<verisimilitude>
Unicode is also UNIX idiocy. Should we make it easy to support multiple character sets; no, one character set to rule them all; kill the unbelievers! Should we have GUI tools that aren't awful; no, just turn Unicode into a partial GUI toolkit. I can go further, but I won't.
<akoana>
Wow Mr. Robert Strandh, I've tried to read some of his papers, pretty mind boggling :)
<verisimilitude>
I'm stuck talking to a terminal if I want a manageable interface that isn't likely to fall out from under me for some reason.
<akoana>
no-defun-allowed: your school project is exactly the kind I'm looking after ;)
<aeth>
verisimilitude: Unicode is bad, but every other alternative is worse
<aeth>
The problem with multiple character sets is multilingual documents. You really expect programs to handle that properly?
<aeth>
And with UTF-8 many programs like IRC clients handle it properly for free without being designed for it.
<LdBeth>
Well, Unicode doesn’t do any bad unless you’re Chinese linguistics guy and UTF-32 is elegant enough for programming
<verisimilitude>
Perhaps the worst thing about UTF-8 is that it penalizes most other character sets, meaning Japan and other countries still use custom ones.
<verisimilitude>
Parsing errors in a character set is just icing on the stupid cake.
<LdBeth>
Japanese just use custom computer
<verisimilitude>
It's as if Ken Thompson thought ``I haven't done enough damage.''.
<LdBeth>
In China UTF-8 is the de facto standard for all websites
<LdBeth>
*and documents
<djeis[m]>
Wait, is your issue with Unicode or UTF-8?
<djeis[m]>
Because all Unicode has done is assign semantics to sequences of codepoints.
<djeis[m]>
You could, in principle, have a wide variety of encodings that each support different ranges of the unicode space. But you still need to be able to give globally unique codepoints before you hit presentation, unless you want to tie fonts into the encoding used for the text.
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<djeis[m]>
Which just seems like it'd introduce a massive duplication of effort to me.
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<verisimilitude>
I dislike Unicode in general, yes, djeis[m].
<djeis[m]>
Do you dislike what they came up with, or do you think their idea as a whole was misguided?
<verisimilitude>
I'd also disagree with the idea that doing anything similar to Unicode, such as building a system for storing documents with multiple languages in them, makes it a subset or different implementation or anything else of Unicode.
<beach>
verisimilitude: I am not "disgusted" by FFI. I am saddened to see all the human endeavor wasted on crappy software infrastructure.
<verisimilitude>
It's both.
<beach>
Worse, the effort is wasted over and over again, because (no doubt out of necessity) people are solving their own little problems using this crappy infrastructure.
<beach>
If only a tiny fraction of that effort were used to improve the infrastructure, we would be more productive and make more progress faster.
<verisimilitude>
It's rotten to the core, yes, beach; hopefully it will collapse under its own weight without taking down modern society.
<verisimilitude>
If you'd like to read some of my deeper thoughts on this topic, I'll provide you a link, djeis[m].
<pillton>
beach: What is the solution though?
<djeis[m]>
I would actually, although I'm already pretty tired and may put that off until the morning.
<djeis[m]>
I'm honestly curious.
<beach>
pillton: I'm not sure. But, for one thing, we need to improve what is taught at universities in their computer science programs. Currently, the teachers (despite having PhDs) are not qualified to do that work. They just don't have the depth of knowledge required to have an opinion about what is being taught.
<akoana>
beach: Thank you for the CLOSOS pdf, I downloaded it - interesting view of Unix and a LispOS, after a first glance
<verisimilitude>
This article, as all of my others, really should be rewritten and added to, but it's a decent glimpse into my thoughts, anyway.
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<beach>
akoana: Glad you like it. I also recommend "the Unix haters handbook". Initially I thought it was written by ignorant people, but it is written by people who are avery smart and very knowledgeable so it has a lot of wisdom in it.
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<verisimilitude>
While I'm at it, have you read what Erik Naggum had to write on these topics, akoana?
<verisimilitude>
If not, you should. XachX has an archive on his personal website.
<akoana>
beach: I think the writers of the "the Unix haters handbook" had a vision how it could be better.
<verisimilitude>
They were using it already.
<beach>
akoana: It is worse than that. They knew what they had and saw things getting worse. Much worse.
<beach>
akoana: That is the sad part. We knew how to do it better, but with Unix, that knowledge was lost.
<akoana>
verisimilitude: I read almost all of Erik Naggum's postings at XachX site, he was an amazing and a bright mind.
<akoana>
beach: That what me makes love (and has me attracted to) Common Lisp, security of ones own programming efforts, not having to re-write because of incompatible changes in the programming language
<beach>
Sure.
<akoana>
beach: and I like to read smart peoples code, and there are a lot of them using Common Lisp.
<beach>
True. Or, rather, the proportion of good to bad code is probably better in Common Lisp than in other languages, because the unusual language filters away some of the really bad programmers. Just a hypothesis of mine. No scientific proof.
<akoana>
beach: this is my impression also, a kind of "numerus clausus"
<djeis[m]>
verisimilitude: Certainly some interesting ideas, although I suspect I'm too tired to really appreciate them. I'll have to discuss this further with you at some point. My first thought is the interesting bits of custom notation trickery that you can get up to in some existing PLs. My other thought is how awkward typing really customized notation can get, although that may just be an input method issue. Unfortunately I have to
<djeis[m]>
vanish for the night though, I have an early morning and am already pretty exhausted.
<verisimilitude>
I wouldn't be using a keyboard in the way you'd think, djeis[m].
<verisimilitude>
In any case, yes, let's discuss this later; I'm glad you found it interesting.
<LdBeth>
Is there any evidence suggests Allegro Lisp supports funcall a structure?
<djeis[m]>
ttyl then.
<verisimilitude>
Good night, then.
<akoana>
verisimilitude: good night and thanks for the link to Erik Naggum
<akoana>
verisimilitude: sorry I misread you last post :) glad you're stayin here