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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<gilberth>
Good morning.
<gilberth>
I believe the environment concept of CL is undervalued. I abused macros in my CLIM to implement presentation types in a way, that mere compilation of a file would not harm the current image.
<beach>
Interesting. For SICL, I definitely intend to make the compilation environment separate from the startup environment to avoid such side effects.
<gilberth>
As compilers, that I found, are careful about that, defining a macro in a file to be compiled does not make it to run time until loaded.
<gilberth>
I have a namespace concept. It should definitely be possible to spawn new name spaces which "behave".
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<gilberth>
Macros do that in practice. My definition of FIND-PRESENTATION-TYPE essentially calls MACROEXPAND on a specially named symbol in the environment at hand. Which is a hack. But then SETF-functions are a hack too in all CL implementations, I know about.
<Bike>
oh, the lexical binding a symbol macro thing? yeah, that's an occasional hack
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<gilberth>
You could go lexical, if you want. I stick the definition of a meaning of a symbol in certain namespace to its macro expansion. Which is a hack. But it works well and manages to get the behavior, that compiling a file does no harm, given current compilers.
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<gilberth>
The symbol then is named like (<namespace> <name>) Like e.g. |(PRESENTATION-TYPE FOO)| and that is the hack.
<Bike>
oh, yeah that's kind of nasty.
<gilberth>
If you ask me, SYMBOL-PLIST would need an environment parameter :)
<gilberth>
Bike: Were SETF functions implemented otherwise?
<Bike>
well, yeah, setf functions are named with actual lists.
<gilberth>
In the spec. But in the implementation? No.
<Bike>
implementations name them with lists.
<beach>
gilberth: Eh, what?
<Bike>
sbcl even expands the concept and has functions with other kinds of lists as names.
<gilberth>
Yeah, converted to symbol names. Strings again.
<Bike>
no?
<Bike>
they're not. why do you think they are?
<gilberth>
Because I have seen them.
<Bike>
where, exactly?
<beach>
Must be in CLISP.
<gilberth>
Perhaps.
<Bike>
i've never heard of this symbol name thing and i don't think it is a usual strategy.
<Bike>
the implementation i work on doesn't do any such thing.
<gilberth>
Anyhow: My point is: It should be possible to spawn a new name space in "user" space, which behaves. Like for instance our presentation types. It is a pain in the a**.
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<Bike>
yeah, that would be useful.
<beach>
gilberth: It will be possible in SICL, as my paper on first-class global environments shows.
<beach>
gilberth: You just have to wait until I finish it.
<Bike>
is there an interface designed for that?
<beach>
Not yet, no.
<beach>
I was thinking of doing it implicitly in the file compiler.
<gilberth>
CCL does SETF::|COMMON-LISP-USER::FOO| which is a variation the theme.
<Bike>
huh. weird.
<gilberth>
It is even worse, because: I want to be able to rename packages and load multiple versions of a system. Then the scheme CL-USER::|(SETF FOO) would have been saner. If you ask me.
<beach>
I will need all that functionality anyway in Second Climacs. I need for every top-level form to be compiled in a "delta" environment that can be discarded without great cost.
<gilberth>
beach: There you go!
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<beach>
gilberth: It is straightforward to do with my first-class global environments protocol.
<gilberth>
beach: I am tired. I gave it much thought though.
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<gilberth>
Anyhow, all this namespace business is hacked and messy though.
<gilberth>
CL is Lisp-n and still has poor support for that. I had quite some fun to get the presentation type stuff right by abusing macros.
<beach>
gilberth: The problem is not in Common Lisp itself. The problem is that current implementations take the easy way out.
<Bike>
well it's true the language doesn't have any convenient mechanism for adding to the environment.
<Bike>
in this way
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<gilberth>
beach: I contradict. How would you span a new name space? So that it could have lexical definitions and the property, that the compile time set of defintions could be different from the run time definitions?
<beach>
OK, fine. The "spawn" function is missing.
<gilberth>
beach: I abused the macro name space and embedded the presentation types into it by a pure naming convention.
<gilberth>
And the latter is the dirty hack.
<beach>
All I am saying is that the standard defines different environments, like the startup environment and the compilation environment.
<beach>
So the standard clearly wanted implementations to move in that direction.
<beach>
But then, to make existing implementations conforming, it had to allow for all of those to be the same.
<gilberth>
beach: That is fine. Very fine. And I love it. Yet, I have no easy and well defined access to it, when I need a new name space.
<beach>
And that is because most implementations have only one such environment.
<beach>
If the standard had included such access, all existing implementations would be non-conforming.
<gilberth>
Sorry. Althrough a lot of implementations are poor about that issue. I happen to believe, that is not the issue. How would you define a name space for say presentation types? You'd start with a hash table, right?
<beach>
Something like that, I guess.
<gilberth>
To implement the "cells" the other guy was talking about.
<gilberth>
beach: What I need is a mapping from the pair of the environment and the name [what ever that'll be] to a definition.
<beach>
gilberth: You will have to wait until I finish SICL then.
<gilberth>
And if that environment is just the compilation environment without the result being loaded, fine with me.
<beach>
... or if you need it sooner rather than later, you need to help me finish it.
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<beach>
gilberth: Do you know about my work on first-class global environments?
<gilberth>
beach: I may be a good hacker, but I could not hack everything at once. Clone me and wait for that person to mature. I think that would be a better plan :)
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<beach>
gilberth: You don't seem to acknowledge having seen it.
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<gilberth>
beach: I acknowledge it. All I am saying is: ANSI-CL gives me no access to it.
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<beach>
Fine, so here is a plan...
<gilberth>
I am listening.
<beach>
1. Parse the dpANS to LaTeX.
<gilberth>
beach: You write the LaTeX macros.
<beach>
2. Start including modifications that all implementation (or nearly so) include anyway.
<beach>
3. Convince existing implementations to move to first-class global environments.
<beach>
4. Define yet another standard update that requires the separation of the startup environment and the compilation environment.
<gilberth>
*Sigh*
<beach>
5. Include the first-class global environments protocol in the standard.
<beach>
:)
<gilberth>
And can we get some orthogonality (sp?) between the value and function space?
<gilberth>
Actually, somebody should have the guts to write down CLtL3. It is a low hanging fruit actually: We have defacto standards: Gray Streams, MOP, bivalent streams, multithreading [through sequence points are hard, very hard].
<gilberth>
We are lucky, that no kids are around :)
<gilberth>
Seriously, is typesetting to a PDF document and thus a pile of dead trees still important?
<beach>
I don't think including additional functionality like that in the standard is the most important matter.
<beach>
That functionality already exists, and everyone is already using it, so including it solves no problem.
<gilberth>
Well, that is what I believe CLtL2 did.
<beach>
gilberth: No, I am open to other suggestions, but LaTeX is still the only one that includes all the functionality I need.
<gilberth>
But sure, we have our standard libraries to address that.
<beach>
Cross references, bibliography entries, math typesetting, etc.
<beach>
I think it is way more urgent to eliminate most of the undefined behavior in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<gilberth>
Yes, I agree.
<gilberth>
It is undefined all the time.
<beach>
Pretty much.
<beach>
And *that* is low-hanging fruit because most existing implementations do the right thing.
<gilberth>
I'll dig it. You asked the right person, because I love documents and typography.
<beach>
I know. :)
<gilberth>
I was sure you did.
<gilberth>
But dpANS is a mess. A huge mess.
<beach>
I totally agree.
<gilberth>
CLtL2 would have been way more easier.
<beach>
That's an idea.
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<gilberth>
I figure that. I still like scribe through. I figure, that you want to have it be possible to be edited in some sane way.
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<beach>
What I really want is a protocol for manipulating documents, so that we can stop thinking in terms of markup languages. But I think jackdaniel is working on a CLIM-based documentation system, so maybe that problem will be solved.
<gilberth>
This is funny.
<beach>
How so?
<gilberth>
My motivation some twenty years ago to start the web browser was to have a documentation system.
<beach>
I see.
<gilberth>
And starting to hack on the web browser got me to CLIM.
<beach>
Oh, that I didn't know.
<gilberth>
I am a perfectionist and have far too less time on my hands to get it right.
<gilberth>
I'll die with much unfinished work.
<beach>
Welcome to the club.
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<gilberth>
Well, I have two "problems". I was not successful on the McCLIM mailing list to get my design idea accepted. And that made me shy. The other is that I am that damn perfectionist.
<gilberth>
This made me to work alone these days.
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<beach>
gilberth: Even if it is not possible to finish everything, there are ways to avoid wasted efforts. I write papers to document ideas, and we extract independent libraries that can be documented and tested separately.
<gilberth>
But I am still an infrastructure person. I would love to give other people tools.
<gilberth>
beach: Oh yeah. I still need to publish a paper about my regular expression engine. I solved what people where thinking about for twenty-something years.
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<beach>
Oh, that's interesting. I would love to see that.
<beach>
You should definitely do what I suggest then. Write it down and publish a library.
<gilberth>
beach: I have a draft. I'll send it to you.
<beach>
That would be fantastic.
<gilberth>
And I have an implementation. Two of them actually one in CL and one in C.
<beach>
I don't have a lot of time before ELS, but I'll find some.
<beach>
Nice.
<gilberth>
That's fine. My time scale is slow, slow motion these days anyway.
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<flip214>
gilberth: I'd be interesting in the paper (& code?) as well... Being a Perl Guy since 1994 or so ;/
<jackdaniel>
I'll have to dig these ideas on the mailing list archive when I'll have some spare time, I've got curious now :)
<gilberth>
flip214: Perl compatible I did not yet manage. And I don't its semantcs. It is POSIX.
<gilberth>
don't like, even. I use to miss words these days.
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<flip214>
Still it would be interesting. Once I invested a bit of time (much too little, though) trying to make CL-PPCRE build match functions via a macro,
<flip214>
so that the compiler can do all its wonderful work instead of "just" calling closures.
<jackdaniel>
doesn't it define bunch of compiler-macros for things it can optimize at compilation time?
<gilberth>
flip214: Drop me a one-liner at gilbert@bauhh.de, so that I'll have your email-address.
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<gilberth>
Well. For those that are interested: I compile group capture to Mealy-automata. This is a completely diffrent business.
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<gilberth>
So you get O(1) for group capture. Though 1 might involve a dozend registers being assigned per character read.
<gilberth>
Or O(n), where n is the length of the string.
<gilberth>
O(1) being though as the work being done _per_ character to match.
<flip214>
gilberth: should arrive in your inbox soon.
<gilberth>
The automata size still is exp, but this this in inherent.
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<jackdaniel>
Harag: how about specializing after method on acceptor-remove-session ?
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<jackdaniel>
and to not be a nasty person for other server clients preferably on your own acceptor (i.e not acceptor class defined by hunchentoot)
<jackdaniel>
(or, fwiw, before method)
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<ym>
jackdaniel, Hi. Could you, please, explain why parameter symbols (like x and y in :motion-notify) of event-case has fixed names? Wouldn't it be more lispy to have programmer-defined names? Like (:motion-notify (mouse-x mouse-y) ...) and let CLX bind them corresponding on their place (first is x coordinate, second - y, etc) like in defmacro.
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<jackdaniel>
ym: the short answer is because that's how it was specified in clx (I'm not the author, I'm a mere co-maintainer), if you ask for my guess then: I think that event-case was specified that way to mimic with-slots (but with a "event-type" twist)
<jackdaniel>
so you don't have to hardcode mapping between slot names and their order
<jackdaniel>
(when declaring event types)
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<ym>
Allrighty then. Thanks.
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<dtw>
It seems that the current stable Debian 9 system has only two CL implementations: SBCL and GCL. Is it just that there are no Debian maintainers for other implementations or does this also tell something about CL upstream development?
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<dtw>
I have almost always used SBCL and I didn't notice that others have disappeared.
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<edgar-rft>
dtw: According to my experience no linux distribution has well maintained CL packages. Linux package systems usually are designed for a C-like infrastructure and are not really suited for Lisp distribution.
<edgar-rft>
I usually compile SBCL myself, even on distributions providing an SBCL package.
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<dtw>
This may affect software distribution. It's easier to tell users of my software to "apt install sbcl" and type "make" than to tell "compile this Lisp implementation first" and then compile my software.
<cage_>
dtw, in my limited experience with linux distribution Debian has a, relative, good CL team, SBCL is upgraded quickly on sid
<dtw>
I used to compile SBCL myself but nowadays I have updated it with my Debian (every two years).
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<dtw>
There are indeed quite good collection of CL libraries in Debian.
<dtw>
I use Quicklisp of course.
<cage_>
and there is still clisp :)
<dtw>
No CLISP in Debian 9.
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<loke>
dtw: The debian CL libraries are a mess. Old, unsupported and doesn't work with modern software.
<loke>
Never install them.
<cage_>
well i think it is going to came back, it is in testing and sid
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<cage_>
i use quicklisp for libraries but never felt the need to compile sbcl (but, i am on debian testing)
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<dim>
loke: that's the general situation yes, but I've expanded some efforts into fixing that with my ql-to-deb tool and took care of the 60+ indirect dependencies for pgloader
<loke>
dim: you should just build a binary with all dependencies embedded.
<dim>
loke: yeah that's what I do, and then I have pgloader distributed in debian itself, so I had to make it compliant with the debian contract
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<dim>
any software shipped in debian must be buildable from sources all distributed in debian too
<loke>
dim: that's horrific
<dim>
I like this guarantee that debian gives its users, and decided to make it happen for pgloader
<loke>
ah, sure. But that doesn't mean that those external deps have to be actual debian packages
<dim>
I'm not completely sure about that level of details, to be honnest
<loke>
I guess they can be _build_ dependencies, but they shouldn't be something users have to install.
<dim>
it looked like The Right Thing™ to do at the time
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<loke>
because the existence of those packages is such a nightmare. I've lost count of the time sI've explained to newcomers that they have to get rid of the borken Debian CL library packages.
<dim>
for the RPM builds, I'm also providing a source tarball that's built with the Quicklisp bundle facility, making it easier and a single source package
<dim>
they are build dependencies yes
<dim>
ql-to-deb allows to easily grab what's in Quicklisp and update the debian package with that, so that it should be easy enough to update them monthly
<dim>
of course that's not what happens at the moment
<loke>
perhaps make a single "quicklisp-build-deps" package that is used during build, but an never be directly installed by a user.
<dim>
some debian users want to install debian packages for their CL libs, I've met some either on IRC or at ELS, but I would not do that either
<dim>
the CL × debian set of users is very small, I guess
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<loke>
dim: yes. I'm not saying they don't exist. But I wouldn't be surprised if the number of users who have had problems with it greatly exceeds the number of user who actually want it.
<dim>
me neither :/
<dim>
at least I tried to help, I would still use QL for a CL development environment even on debian
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<phoe>
hey, I'm on debian
<phoe>
and I install nothing CL-related from the debian repos
<phoe>
I get my SBCL via roswell and my packages via quicklisp
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iovec is now known as ioctl
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<svillemot>
dtw: in Debiar 9, you also have ECL; in Debian 10, clisp will be back
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<svillemot>
there is also CMUCL
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<svillemot>
unfortunately, CCL can not be packaged because for its FFI it basically depends on a obsolete GCC version
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<svillemot>
loke: I confirm that Debian packages for CL libraries are build-dependencies of pgloader, but need not be installed by the end user
<svillemot>
I'm aware that those packages for CL libraries are not the right fit for many developers, but at least permit having pgloader in Debian
<svillemot>
recently I have also improved their quality by integrating their testsuites into the CI engine of Debian (i.e. they are tested automatically against SBCL, ECL and sometimes CLISP)