<vsync>
anyone have experience with lisp graph DBs?
<vsync>
just found VivaceGraph, wondering if there are more and how they compare to e.g. Allegro
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<phoe>
it's 01:25 and I am bug-hunt-digging into the foreign Postmodern codebase figuring out how postgres wire protocol works instead of e.g. sleeping
<Bike>
because compiler inferred types are not available in the environment and thus not to macroexpanders
<gilberth>
It also would be a bit paradox. Since the macro cannot every possibly depend on infered type information as that inferred type information would depend on its expansion.
<gilberth>
ever, rather. It's late.
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<aeth>
there's probably a way around that
<Bike>
oh, well, probably
<Bike>
that's fine then
<gilberth>
aeth: Solving that as a fixed point problem?
<White_Flame>
or call the expansion twice
<aeth>
You could probably introduce some special in-defmacro-only form... macro-typecase or something.
<gilberth>
Interesting thought. But how would you guarantee that it even is fixed point and will convergate?
<gilberth>
converge, even?! [sic]
<gilberth>
White_Flame: It will need to have a fixed point.
<White_Flame>
not necessarily. It can support just a single feedback loop and work
<White_Flame>
compile once blindly, compile again now that there's some inference
<gilberth>
I don't think so.
<aeth>
You can kind of have something like my macro-typecase already in optimizing implementations. Have an actual typecase and have it be optimized away after expansion... with the risk that it won't be and you'll get massive generated code size.
<aeth>
It might also say "deleting unreachable code" confusingly. Not sure.
<gilberth>
aeth: This is what I do at times. IIRC this works quite well.
<aeth>
It works well for one and okay for two.
<aeth>
beyond that you probably do want something like specialization-store but since it uses introspect-environment it will only work for declared types
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<pjb>
leo_song: in lisp, types are not associated to variables, but to values. Values are known only at run-time!
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<leo_song>
pjb: Even so, some type of symbols still can be deduced at compile time.
<leo_song>
But common lisp dosen't require implementations to provide such infomations to the programmer.
<gilberth>
That is not entirely true. You could assert that variable only holds an object a of a certain type by means of DECLARE.
<gilberth>
And as I said earlier deduced information will never be available to a macro.
<leo_song>
Yes, and I wish it could be more automatically. Like SBCL can give some type warning, if those informations can be retrieved, it would be great.
<pjb>
leo_song: there can be exceptional cases, but in general, 1- this would require global analysis, 2- and even so, it's not always possible (remember, "run-time").
<leo_song>
Yes, not necessarily always, only some will be helpful.
<leo_song>
s/only/even
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<aeth>
gilberth: Yeah, I bring that up a lot too
<aeth>
gilberth: Clearly pjb disagrees, but I agree with you
<aeth>
CL can be dynamically typed or it can be both dynamically and statically typed. (It can't be only statically typed, though.)
<aeth>
This is safer than just static typing, anyway. You have two things and they must match.
<aeth>
gilberth: to be fair, though, DECLARE is implementation-specific
<gilberth>
aeth: Sure.
<gilberth>
aeth: Still --- IIRC CLtL2 had that --- to get at the declared types in macro would be nice in some cases.
<aeth>
gilberth: we've gone full circle back to introspect-environment, which is a portability library over that part of CLtL2
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<gilberth>
What I wanted to point out that the idea that a macro could get at inferred types is a wet dream, since that inferred type would depend on the macro expansion too. Unless you formulated that as a fixed point problem with proven convergence that'll never work.
<aeth>
gilberth: well, extending defmacro (or having another macro type) is the other alternative I see...
<aeth>
of course, it won't happen
<gilberth>
OK, then we agree, I suppose.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<McParen>
hello
<McParen>
getf requires a place to access, what would be the equivalent function to access lexically defined plists?
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<McParen>
or would a lexically defined variable also be considered a place within the scope of let?
<flip214>
phoe: thanks, already found heisig
<flip214>
McParen: a variable name is a place, too.
<flip214>
if you want (SETF (GETF ...) ...), the PLACE is important. For reading, not so.
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<flip214>
Is there some pre-existing way of making ITERATE work together with CL-WHO? There's a MACROLET incompatibility problem.
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<McParen>
thanks.
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<makomo_>
welp, we just arrived in genova
<makomo_>
"just"
<makomo_>
anyone around?
<flip214>
makomo_: yes.
<makomo_>
flip214: shinmera said he'll be in genova later in the afternoon. i guess we could have a little meetup then or something?
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<flip214>
makomo_: yeah.
<jackdaniel>
genua?
<flip214>
I had lunch with heisig plus his girlfriend already; I think they're in contact with shinmera, too.
<flip214>
jackdaniel: ELS
<jackdaniel>
yes, I think makomo_ made a typo
<jackdaniel>
that's why I've asked
<jackdaniel>
have a good time
<flip214>
jackdaniel: geneva is in switzerland -- so no typo ;)
<flip214>
jackdaniel: thanks! you're not coming?
<jackdaniel>
flip214: I know, but I've never geard about city genova
<jackdaniel>
nvm. no, I'm not comming. we have a 3 month-old little lisper up here, we'll come next year ;)
<jackdaniel>
s/geard/heard/
<jackdaniel>
I certainly hope someone will record prelections unofficially (even with low quality), official channels are not very prompt with publication
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<jackdaniel>
makomo_: former is English name, latter is Italian. The one I've used is Polish.
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<beach>
Good afternoon everyone!
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<beach>
We just arrived in our room at Bristol Palace.
<beach>
Is there a place where people hang out in the hotel?
<beach>
Anyway, first we'll unpack and shower.
<flip214>
beach: Good afternoon! Welcome to Genova!
<flip214>
It looks like a few people will meet for dinner. I don't think that'll be in Bristol, though.
<makomo_>
beach: hello :-)
<beach>
flip214: I was thinking before dinner.
<beach>
We have a reservation just for the two of us in the hotel restaurant at 19:00. If anyone wants to join us, we can try to change the reservation.
<makomo_>
that'll probably be tricky since there's a few of us i think
<makomo_>
flip214: are kpoeck and shinmera arriving together or?
<_death>
I've a place I'd like to try this evening
<beach>
makomo_: Fair enough.
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<flip214>
beach: not sure whether I want dinner there, but I can visit you before that if you like. Tell me when I may arrive, I'm about 20 minutes away.
<flip214>
_death: which one?
<flip214>
I found a small pizzeria that looks very nice, and a chinese food parlour (sushi etc.) that claimed to have a buffet yesterday for lunch. No idea whether that's for dinner too, though.
<flip214>
makomo_: I don't know.
<beach>
flip214: I need to see whether there is a bar in the hotel or something.
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<beach>
flip214: if it's too much trouble, don't bother. We'll meet tomorrow.
<makomo_>
flip214: kevslinger just told me kpoeck is already in town
<flip214>
beach: In the lobby there a few seats, at least.
<flip214>
makomo_: okay...
<makomo_>
we're right across the street from the bristol palace hotel :-)
<flip214>
perhaps we should just define some space/time coordinates to meet; a discussion about dinner could take some time, though, and doing that on the street ain't that nice
<MetaYan>
wooden_: That's the way to run programs, but it might not have the intended effect in this case, because emacsclient would probably like to have some sort of direct tty access. Not sure how that works. Sorry.
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<MetaYan>
wooden_: This is probably what you're after: (uiop:run-program "emacsclient -t" :output :interactive :input :interactive)
<wooden_>
MetaYan: that's it! thank you!
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<MetaYan>
You're welcome. And thanks for asking, because I learned something too!
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<antoszka>
Do we have an ELS IRC channel? I just joined/created #els2019, but it's empty.
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<jackdaniel>
here is empty anyway during this time of year
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<p_l>
Most els talk is on WhatsApp
<p_l>
jackdaniel: are you at ELS?
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<jackdaniel>
p_l: not this year
<antoszka>
Yeah, but M. Raskin was asking about a place to chat/meet since he's using neither WhatsApp (which I guess is a wise choice in the long run) nor mobile data (which seems silly, but well... :))
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<refpga>
Hi, what does prefixing a constant with "#. do? (It returns the same value as simply the constant from the top level)
<refpga>
Sorry, #. not "#.
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<Bike>
#. does read-time-evaluation
<Bike>
so "#.(+ 2 2)" will be read as a literal as if you had written "4"
<Bike>
if the form is already a constant, like #.4, it won't make a difference
<refpga>
Thanks
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<refpga>
What exactly is a # in common lisp? Like, it also appears in #'.
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<Bike>
it's nothing by itself, it's just the start of the many two-character reader macros