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<phoe>
.....why the hell is #'FUNCTION-KEYWORDS named like that if it accepts a method and not a function
* phoe
goes back to sleep
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<phoe>
minion: memo for emaczen: if your hooks depend on each other (e.g. due to calling order), then they are actually a badly factored single hook - and they should become a single hook
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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<makomo>
i've summarized and nicely formatted the findings regarding HANDLER-BIND from yesterday, so if anyone has any comments, fire away https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1248#
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<jackdaniel>
makomo: first you need to ask yourself a question what does it mean to decline a handler
<jackdaniel>
handler-bind doesn't take over the control unless you call some escape operator (i.e return-from)
<jackdaniel>
it is also incorrect to say, that unhandled condition will drop you in the debugger, only conditions signalled with error will do that
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<makomo>
yeah, i'm aware of that. if a transfer of control isn't performed then the condition is unhandled (the handler declined)
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<makomo>
where does it say that?
<jackdaniel>
moreover, if you have handler-bind over a condition signalled with error and you do not take over the control, you will end up in a debugger anyway
<jackdaniel>
I'm not going to go through spec and analyze it with you (I've had enough the last time); I'm just pointing out potential issues with your reasoning and carry on
<makomo>
heh...
<makomo>
jackdaniel: the stuff you mentioned is fine, but i don't get where i said anything opposite of that
<makomo>
these are quotes from the standard
<makomo>
i understand what it means for a handler to handle, decline or defer a condition
<makomo>
the possible issue are the quoted parts from the standard and the provided example
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<makomo>
jackdaniel: to clarify, when i said "where does it say that?", i was referring to your "it is also incorrect to say ...", i.e. to point it out within my own text, not the CLHS
<jackdaniel>
I dodn't see a contradiction between the spec and a behavior, your text says there is one
<makomo>
clhs 9.1.4 says "That is, if the handler declines, no other handler established by that form will be considered for possible invocation."
<makomo>
this should mean that after the 1st handler declines (by just printing and not performing a transfer of control), the 2nd one shouldn't be run
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<jackdaniel>
it means, that (handler-bind (a …) (b …) whatever) ; if in a you cuase b, then b handler won't be invoked
<makomo>
but there's nothing in the above sentence that says about the body of a signalling a condition
<random-nick>
"While the selected handler runs, no other handler established by that form is active."
<makomo>
that's handled by the previous sentence "While the selected handler runs, no other handler established by that form is active."
<random-nick>
notice the while
<makomo>
says anything about the body of A*
<random-nick>
makomo: the second sentence is just a clarification of the first (it even starts with "That is,")
<makomo>
how is that a clarification? it's saying a completely different thing
<makomo>
one is stating something that should hold *during* a handler is being run, and the other one is stating something that should hold *after* (once it declines by returning normally) the handler is run
<jackdaniel>
I think that title of this paste is very accurate! (about the confusion ;-) I think that wording is very clear there and I don't know how to rephrase it so it is clearer
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<jackdaniel>
after rereading these passages I take back what I said. It is indeed confusing wording (in 9.1.4). "While …. That is …". Second part contradicts its former one and other parts of the spec.
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<jackdaniel>
Given its context I'd assume, that sentence starting with "That is" should be discared (because wording indicates that it is meant to clarify the previous sentence).
<jackdaniel>
makomo: ↑
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<makomo>
jackdaniel: thanks :-)
<makomo>
right, that last sentence is problematic
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<makomo>
and with or without the "That is" it is wrong. if you leave it, then it's trying to clarify the previous sentence which is trying to say a completely different thing. if you remove it, it's still in contradiction with CLHS HANDLER-BIND
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<makomo>
either way, it has to go
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<flip214>
Is there some other way to make bindings available to code? Given https://paste.debian.net/hidden/56031ae3/, I'd like to have the :call-per-row code have access to the outer variable (here x);
<flip214>
but I can't move the passed-in LAMBDA to some outer FLET or LABELS, as then the dynamic environment won't include x any more.
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<shka_>
flip214: what is that supposed to do?
<shka_>
in short?
<flip214>
shka_: I need to iterate across a 2d array in several places; there's quite a lot of pre-computed stuff each time, so I'd like to factor that in a macro.
<flip214>
Now I have another place where I need to do something for each row (HTML output "<tr>" via CL-WHO ;)
<flip214>
and I'm trying to achieve that via a thunk that gets called.
<shka_>
this feels like a little bit complicated solution
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<flip214>
why? just another macro to abstract away some repeated constructs
<shka_>
maybe it would be better to separate source of indexes that you are about to change?
<shka_>
dunno, really, it just feels wrong
<shka_>
anyway, don't mind me, i am not a huge fan of macros to begin with
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<shka_>
but something like (for-each-cell source-of-cells array function) seems to be better to me
<shka_>
anyway, going AFK
<flip214>
can I make ITERATE ignore some form? I get a warning "MACROLET...will not be walked", and that warning makes little ASDF cry
<shka_>
flip214: i am not very helpful today, sorry :(
<flip214>
shka_: FUNCTION would have quite a few parameters then, right?
<flip214>
shka_: no problem, thanks anyway!
<shka_>
flip214: i think it should have 3 required
<shka_>
and maybe some optional
<flip214>
that makes calling it even harder - lots of keywords that might not even be needed, etc.
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<puchacz>
hi, if something is of a class x, is it also (typep something 'x) ?
<puchacz>
I mean I know it works, but I am not sure if it works by accident or by specs
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<beach>
It works by design.
<puchacz>
so safe to use forever?
<beach>
Yes.
<puchacz>
thanks
<beach>
Anytime.
<puchacz>
:-)
<Grue`>
vms14: what are you even using that doesn't have UIOP built-in?
<vms14>
Grue`, clisp
<vms14>
I use it for quick tests, but I have sbcl as "main"
<vms14>
btw I'm trying to use the bind-handler
<vms14>
but it says there is no restart named like what I put
<Grue`>
are you loading asdf in .clisprc ?
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<vms14>
nope
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<vms14>
it fixes that problem automagically if I load id twice
<vms14>
or I put the restart it gives
<vms14>
but trying with bind-handler I cannot use that restart
<vms14>
INVOKE-RESTART: No restart named COMMON-LISP-USER::REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY is visible.
<vms14>
in which package is this restart?
<Grue`>
the restart is probably in a different package
<Grue`>
but anyway, you shouldn't have to do this
<vms14>
tried with asdf asdf2 ql quiclkisp packages
<Grue`>
try to edit your .clisprc so that asdf loads before quicklisp
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<beach>
vms14: What is it about SBCL that is not "quick" enough and with CLISP that is?
<vms14>
Grue`, so just (ql:quickload "asdf") ?
<Grue`>
it should be at ~/quicklisp/asdf.lisp
<Grue`>
(though I'm not sure CLISP can expand ~, so include the full path)
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<vms14>
I've tried to (ql:quickload "asdf") and later (ql:quickload "clx") which is the failing package
<vms14>
and nothing
<Grue`>
wait, not quickload, just (load "/home/myuser/quicklisp/asdf")
<vms14>
beach, what?
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<vms14>
Grue`, it seems to be the uiop package
<beach>
vms14: You say you use CLISP for "quick tests".
<vms14>
if I load it with quicklisp before load clx it shows a different error
<beach>
vms14: What is preventing you from using SBCL for such tests.
<Grue`>
uiop package is defined in asdf.lisp. this is the file you need to load to have asdf and uiop
<vms14>
beach, ofc, sbcl has no editing shit
<vms14>
I should use emacs first and slime
<beach>
Definitely.
<vms14>
if I want to test one line, I just use clisp
<beach>
why?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you want just line editing for a quick test, you can rlwrap sbcl
<beach>
vms14: You would typically have your Common Lisp process running for a long time, months if your computer doesn't crash. Then you just type your line.
<vms14>
Grue`, tried with normal load, and it loads, but says the same
<vms14>
(load "/home/vms/quicklisp")
<vms14>
beach, sure a nice solution
<beach>
I highly recommend it.
<vms14>
MichaelRaskin, yeah, I want to try rlwrap
<pjb>
vms14: can you think for a second?
<vms14>
I guess no-defun-allowed suggested me to use it
<pjb>
vms14: what is /home/vms/quicklisp ?
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<vms14>
pjb it loads asdf with that command
<vms14>
Loaded file /home/vms/quicklisp/asdf.lisp
<vms14>
T
<vms14>
the error is in uiop package, which seems to be inside asdf
<vms14>
and if I load "uiop" I get a different error
<vms14>
Error while trying to load definition for system clx from pathname /home/vms/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clx-20181210-git/clx.asd:
<vms14>
DESTRUCTURING-BIND: (UIOP/PACKAGE:SYMBOL-CALL :FIASCO :RUN-TESTS :XLIB-TEST) does not match lambda list element (ASDF::O ASDF::C)
<vms14>
it fixes that problem just by loading clx again or typing the :r1 restart option it gives me
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<vms14>
but I want to invoke that restart from the script since it's all I can do atm if someone is using clisp instead of sbcl
<vms14>
and I cannot find where that restart is it
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<vms14>
REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY
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<akater>
In a system, I have toplevel-forms (defmacro m0 ...) and (defmacro m1 ...), and m1 depends on m0. I get style-warning during compilation about m0 being undefined function. The symbol is exported properly.
<akater>
I made m0 produce eval-when form, like clhs suggests (in eval-when entry) but still no luck.
<makomo>
akater: m1 depends on m0 meaning that it uses m0 within its expander (not the expansion)?
<makomo>
that should be fine though, because CLHS DEFMACRO says "If a defmacro form appears as a top level form, the compiler must store the macro definition at compile time, so that occurrences of the macro later on in the file can be expanded correctly. Users must ensure that the body of the macro can be evaluated at compile time if it is referenced within the file being compiled."
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<akater>
makomo: m0 is used to compute the form produced by m1
<makomo>
right, so it is used within M1's expander
<makomo>
i don't see any style-warnings on my end. provide a self-contained example that reproduces the issue
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<akater>
A standalone file compiles with no issues, hmm.
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<akater>
Got it, I accidentally moved an in-package form to a wrong place. Thanks makomo I should have tried to isolate the problem!
<makomo>
akater: :-)
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<comborico1611>
I don't understand why COMPILE-FILE is returning nil nil, yet it creates a fasl file.
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<Prof_Birch>
Is emacs a good place to start learning lisp
<didi>
Prof_Birch: Ye.
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<Prof_Birch>
lit
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Prof_Birch: which lisp?
<Prof_Birch>
Well that's the question isn't it
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<Prof_Birch>
I don't really have a use case for it outside of emacs right now
<Prof_Birch>
but I really like emacs and would like to hack on it
<Prof_Birch>
but I don't want to learn bad habits
<Prof_Birch>
I think probably Clojure too, since I do a lot of Android dev, personally
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<didi>
Prof_Birch: This is a Common Lisp channel. Go for #emacs for Emacs and elisp (which is the lisp used to write Emacs).
<Prof_Birch>
Oh alright thanks
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