<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's a bit of a pain to get working, but it's pretty useful for finding definitions on your mac.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<makomo>
morning
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<splittist>
morning
<no-defun-allowed>
Morning splittist
<no-defun-allowed>
So, please tell me if this is too far fetched from Common Lisp talk, but what do people call defining features of a Lisp? I answered on /r/lisp, people seemed to agree, but then they changed when I told someone their project wasn't a Lisp.
<no-defun-allowed>
(I answered that lambdas, symbols and conses are the fewest types you'd need, and macros, and thus homiconicity, and having a complete development system at runtime are important tools in a Lisp too.)
<jackdaniel>
no-defun-allowed: some people will tell, that what defines Lisp is the fact whenever programming language is a descendent of LISP 1.5 (direct or indirect), others will list macros, closures, first class functinos yada yada, next person will say "clos" ,-)
<no-defun-allowed>
Heh.
<jackdaniel>
my point is that discussing it is pointless due to great disagreement what "lisp" is – is scheme a lisp? imho – sure; many people (both cl and scheme) will disagree
<no-defun-allowed>
Of course. Is there anything people can agree on though?
<jackdaniel>
I don't know, some people take it strictly religiously, and I shy away from religious disputes (to avoid getting burned at stake)
<no-defun-allowed>
Cause someone posted something I thought was not a Lisp on /r/Lisp, and people did not seem to agree with that.
<no-defun-allowed>
I see, that's pretty fair. No stress.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm just cranky that r/Lisp has stopped being an echo chamber I agree with, I suppose.
<jackdaniel>
ah, so you are the religious folk ,)
<jackdaniel>
have your opinion and let others have theirs
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe? I just saw web-assembler with dynamic typing (and I'm not sure about that, OP chose to write it in Rust for some god-awful reason so I can't compile it).
<jackdaniel>
fact that we are lisp suckers does not mean rust is not a good programming language. /me shyes away from this discussion.
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure, I don't mean to argue about that.
* no-defun-allowed
also awkwardly drops the topic
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<jmercouris>
Does anyone have experience with deploy a lisp web server and updating it while it is running?
<no-defun-allowed>
I've run a web server with swank running.
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<jmercouris>
When I'm in a Slime REPL session I just C-c C-c and continue on my merry way, but I was wondering if it would be possible to have the same effect by uploading new code to the webserver and it having it automatically eval or something
<jmercouris>
no-defun-allowed: Right, that's one obvious approach, and that *would* work, you could even connect to it remotely
<no-defun-allowed>
It works as well as you'd expect, you just have to use slime-connect instead of slime to start the Emacs client.
<shka_>
jmercouris: it is probabbly possible
<jmercouris>
however swank does have some performance drawbacks which I do not wish to go into
<jmercouris>
mostly related to I/O
<shka_>
jmercouris: oh common
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think it should impact the rest of the server.
<shka_>
it won't
<jackdaniel>
C-c C-c is good for quick hacks
<jmercouris>
shka_: most definitely it is, I am just thinking of how to do it
<jackdaniel>
if it is a real server it may crash at some point of time and process may get restarted
<jackdaniel>
then you lose all your glamour fixe
<jackdaniel>
fixes*
<jmercouris>
yes that is true
<jmercouris>
unless you had your lisp process daemonized
<shka_>
jmercouris: run swank and be merry
<jmercouris>
and you were uploading the new versions of code the whole time to the server
<jmercouris>
so that when the system does reload itself, it has all the new definitions
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<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: even if it is daemonized it may crash and get restarted by the daemon manager
<jmercouris>
right, and that's okay, because it will load the new source files
<jmercouris>
I guess that depends on how you daemonize
<jmercouris>
if you make a lisp image and die, or if you are loading the system in the daemon
<jackdaniel>
I'm confused, I thought I'm talking about flaws of calling C-c C-c from slime-connect
<jmercouris>
Yes, that is what we are talkign about
<jmercouris>
but I had put a little caveat above
<jackdaniel>
then how would it load new source files upon restart if you just do C-c C-c? where are said files?
<jmercouris>
which was, in addiiton ot C-c C-c from Slime Connect, you also upload new versions of the functions/files to the server upon which you are making these hotfixees
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<jmercouris>
said source files are located on the remote server, which you synchronize with something like RSYNC
<jmercouris>
you leave swank as no defun said, connect to it, and C-c C-c new definitions at your whim
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<jmercouris>
if that doesn't make sense, I can start from a blank and explain anew
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand why do you need swank if you upload files anyway
<jmercouris>
because, if you are uploading files, the Lisp image in memory will not change
<jackdaniel>
(i.e you may monitor directory with "fixes" and if new file happens to be there you simply load it)
<jmercouris>
yeah that's what I'm talking about
<jmercouris>
that seems much better than Swank
<jmercouris>
has anyone experience doing that specifically?
<jmercouris>
and what about loading files with defsystem forms in them, that will inevitably lead to trouble
<shka_>
jmercouris: i do have some expirience, but you must have plan B in case things go south
<shka_>
which is usually a quick restart
<jmercouris>
hence, why I was suggesting a hybrid approach, which is 1. swank and reload functions as necessary, export symbols etc, whatever you need to, 2. all the changes you make, also make to the source and upload them to the server 3. such that when the server crashes it will load the correct, new source
<jmercouris>
so this is like an extreme form of continuous deployment, with 0 downtime
<jackdaniel>
it is not extreme
<jmercouris>
I'm just thinking about how this could be done in a production environment
<jmercouris>
I think its extreme
<jackdaniel>
common lisp has been designed to allow that
<jmercouris>
I couldn't see this work in any other language
<jmercouris>
or implementation of a language*
<jackdaniel>
you have change-class, compiler on board and many more tools to deal with live updates
<surrounder>
jmercouris: can imagine smalltalk working the same way
<jmercouris>
okay fine, it is not extreme to you or me, but in the web community, the idea is extreme
<jmercouris>
surrounder: can you imagine smalltalk being used in a production web server?
<surrounder>
why not?
<jmercouris>
I am just asking, I don't know anything about smalltalk
<shka_>
jmercouris: anyway, whatever you do, ensure two things
<shka_>
make sure that you can validate thate update went ok
<shka_>
make sure that you can fix stuff if validation failed
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<jmercouris>
shka_: that's an interesting thought, you could have live rollbacks
<jmercouris>
you could literally just redefine functions live
<shka_>
technically it should be possible to do it essentially always
<shka_>
but!
<jmercouris>
however your database could be in a bad state
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<jmercouris>
since the database is... stateful
<shka_>
never underestimate potential of human fuckup
<jmercouris>
I do not
<shka_>
good :-)
<jmercouris>
I made a catastrophic failure myself earlier this week
<jmercouris>
assumed the stripe API accepted currency in float amounts, but it is integer
<shka_>
also, be quiet, you may summon beach to talk about first class envs :D
<shka_>
yeah, so stuff like that
<shka_>
i also think that doing this via swank is way to go
<jmercouris>
so the overhead of a swank server is not too much in your opinion?
<shka_>
but i am not an expert
<jmercouris>
I think it is, which is why I was asking the question
<jmercouris>
that was the first thing that came to mind
<shka_>
imho overhead of swank is tiny
<jmercouris>
it also feels like a great security vulnerability
<shka_>
swank?
<no-defun-allowed>
A swank server has zero overhead (except a listening thread) usually.
<jmercouris>
though I guess someone would need to be on the server
<shka_>
swank is not secure at all
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, you need to port forward using SSH to get in.
<jmercouris>
at which point, everything is compromised anyways
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<jmercouris>
however, I imagine most hackers are not experienced in Lisp
<shka_>
that's why you don't bind it on anything but loopback
<jmercouris>
and will just go for the database anyways
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't remember the invocation of SSH, but swank just won't take connections from outside localhost from memory.
<jmercouris>
yeah, you could do that as well in the swank rc file or whatever it is called
<shka_>
jmercouris: just don't bind swank socket to network interface,
<shka_>
use ssh tunnel
<jmercouris>
I think it is .swank.lisp or so
<jmercouris>
shka_: so you've done this yourself in a production environment?
<jmercouris>
did you have success? is this something I should consider?
<jmercouris>
no-defun-allowed: a listening thread is a lot of interrupts
<jmercouris>
bordeaux threads, are they lightweight threads or system processes? or is it OS dependent?
<no-defun-allowed>
Why would it interrupt if there is nothing to do?
<jmercouris>
no-defun-allowed: something somewhere is polling, there is no "listening"
<jmercouris>
but maybe it is too trivial to care
<schweers>
jmercouris: why is there no such thing as “listening”?
<no-defun-allowed>
(BT wraps over your implementation's threads. SBCL uses OS threads, but I hear ECL uses green threads.)
<jackdaniel>
you hear wrong
<no-defun-allowed>
I think that's the OS's problem.
<jackdaniel>
and jmercouris what made you make such (untrue) statement with such certainity?
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: if you are going to start talking about traps and interrupts and claim that that is listening, then we will have to disagree
<no-defun-allowed>
The pattern for a socket server is usually to wait for SOCKET-ACCEPT, then spawn a thread.
<jackdaniel>
I'm talking about swank-server listening for new connections?
<jmercouris>
and this has no cost to listen? must it not check every so often if there is a message available somewhere?
<no-defun-allowed>
A server spends most of its time waiting for SOCKET-ACCEPT, which can just be a little wrapper for the C function which waits.
<jmercouris>
which consumes CPU time
<no-defun-allowed>
Pretty much none, it's the kernel's problem now.
<jmercouris>
there is no argument about this
<jmercouris>
you can say this is an OS level problem, but it is still a consumption of resources
<jmercouris>
anyways I also stated above "maybe it is too trivial to care"
<no-defun-allowed>
There is an argument, since accept is blocking, so it's out of your control.
<jackdaniel>
if you say with certainity that waiting for a connection is "polling on the cpu" then I think I have nothing to say
<schweers>
jmercouris: resources yes, but why do you think this consumes CPU time or is polling?
<jmercouris>
of course this is implementation dependent, but let's consider two cases, of a simple Unix machine
<no-defun-allowed>
It's marginally more work for your kernel's scheduler to remember to run your server thread.
<jmercouris>
one has Port XYZ open and an application listening on that port, the other has no ports open
<jmercouris>
which one is consuming more resources? which one is periodically checking that port for messages?
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* jackdaniel
is going to pass on these spoils of wisdom, later \o
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
don't condescend
<schweers>
jmercouris: technically, listening on a port consumes kernel resources. But this does not mean that the kernel is polling anything. Let alone userspace.
<jmercouris>
schweers: okay, so let's get this straight
<no-defun-allowed>
Does it bother you that much?
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<no-defun-allowed>
At this point, it'd be more effective to rewrite your program in assembler.
<jmercouris>
you believe that an interrupt is *actually* simply an interrupt, and that there didn't have to be a check somewhere on the hardware?
<jmercouris>
that it doesn't have some hardware loop or clock or whatever on some device to check?
<jmercouris>
for example, do you think a mouse consumes no extra CPU simply by being plugged in?
<jmercouris>
I mean, they are both IO devices
<schweers>
In hardware, that’s the point. Not CPU hardware
<schweers>
<jmercouris>
okay, here is where I was too ambiguous
<jmercouris>
I was using the word CPU as an alias for computer
<jmercouris>
rather than simply meaning the processor
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<jmercouris>
and that is where this misunderstanding has arisen from
<schweers>
Well, the C does stand for Central ;)
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<jmercouris>
that does, and I have been imprecise!
<schweers>
Also, I used the word resource to refer to things like open files, open ports, etc.
<jmercouris>
Apologies for the confusion!
<no-defun-allowed>
So, back to lispland, the difference between running swank with no clients and not running swank is minimal.
<schweers>
I’d call it immeasurable.
<no-defun-allowed>
Also, SWANK consumes memory, so you'll have longer GC pauses maybe. Does it still matter?
<schweers>
jmercouris: I’m glad we could resolve this misunderstanding :)
<jmercouris>
"maybe it is too trivial to care" :D
<no-defun-allowed>
Have you got a CL implementation on your Commodore PET or something?
<jmercouris>
schweers: I appreciate your positive attitude!
<jmercouris>
I am also glad about this
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<jmercouris>
and I have learned a lesson I will continue to learn, be more precise
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<shka_>
jmercouris: swank simply offers to much for a little
<shka_>
jmercouris: i used swank on production server
<shka_>
it worked ok, but i managed to srew up because of my error
<jmercouris>
shka_: and were you satisfied with the experience?
<jmercouris>
oh I see
<jmercouris>
that is the danger isn't it
<jmercouris>
you can very easily mess everything up
<jmercouris>
what kind of server were you on?
<shka_>
yeah, you need to take that into account
<shka_>
what do you mean?
<jmercouris>
I wonder if one could make a nice little program that takes a ZFS snapshot before making your changes in case everything goes awry
<jmercouris>
simply roll back to ten seconds ago, and re-evaluate the old function versions
<jmercouris>
shka_: what OS and file system were you using?
<jmercouris>
how was the Lisp Process running?
<jmercouris>
could you elaborate on your set-up?
<jmercouris>
I am using FreeBSD servers running ZFS
<shka_>
jmercouris: i was running on linux with ext4
<shka_>
no snapshots
<jmercouris>
living a dangerous life :D
<shka_>
not that bad
<jmercouris>
however even if one does take snapshots, database transactions could still be in memory
<jmercouris>
so you would have to flush all of them before taking the snapshot
<jmercouris>
maybe you could do 1 second deployment hotfixes
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<shka_>
anyway, i didn't optimized whole process perfectly
<shka_>
but it wasn't critical service, if it gets down for a minute or so it is fine
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<jmercouris>
I see
<jmercouris>
well, thanks for sharing your experience
<jmercouris>
I'll see what I can do
<shka_>
jmercouris: thing is, i am pretty sure you should start with swank
<jmercouris>
Yes, I will try it
<shka_>
ok cool
<shka_>
furthermore
<shka_>
threads!
<jmercouris>
I would like to think about the bigger picture of how this will fit into a deployment/updater
<jmercouris>
what about threads?
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<jmercouris>
that's actually interesting, so a bordeaux thread, contains all the state of the main image? or?
<jmercouris>
I never thought that much about threads in Lisp
<aeth>
I wouldn't describe swank as zero overhead like no-defun-allowed said, but I would say that if you wanted less overhead you'd probably have to write it entirely by yourself.
<shka_>
ok, so issue is that i am pretty sure that redefining method in sbcl is no 100% thread safe
<jmercouris>
right, that's what I was hinting at, but did not want to assume
<jmercouris>
so I'm imagining some operation in thread A calling a function, and thread B calling a function, and redefining that function could have unexpected results
<jmercouris>
there are timing issues, so maybe you do need to freeze the system
<jackdaniel>
bordeaux-threads is a compatibility layer for threading primitives present on underlying implementation (for instance sbcl). usually threading is implemented as operating system threads (i.e posix threads) with shared process memory
<jmercouris>
maybe you need a function called like "lock-system" that literally just locks the system so you can redfine things in safety
<shka_>
i got no method found few times when doing that
<jmercouris>
that would make sense
<jmercouris>
if each client is a new thread or whatever, it may not be *too* big a deal, I guess it depends on how defensive your code is
<shka_>
not sure what the perfect solution is, but i wanted to warn you
<jmercouris>
a couple of "internal server errors" isn't the end of the world for a few people
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<jmercouris>
so usually posix threads
<jmercouris>
but not necessarily, seems there are few guaranteees
<jmercouris>
this is a tricky tricky problem! much trickier than I initially thought
<jackdaniel>
if you are concerned about system initial tables it is compilers memory to protect them with locks
<jackdaniel>
if you always want to have the newest function called despite the compilation unit, declare it notinline
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<flip214>
anyone from US coming to ELS this year?
<beach>
Yes.
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<flip214>
beach: thanks -- I assumed as much. I'd like to ask a small favour...
<beach>
I know of at least Martin Cracauer.
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<flip214>
Any volunteer available here with amazon dot com access?
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<Jachy>
flip214: I might be able to help if what I'm inferring you need isn't something big... got late approval last week for my company to expense my flight/hotel. :)
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<sjl_>
I'll be there.
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<flip214>
I'd like to ask for a book being bought (used) from amazon, given to me, in exchange for hard currency
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<Jachy>
flip214: Sure, PM me the details?
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<flip214>
Thanks, problem seems solved
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<White_Flame>
C-c Enter will macroexpand the form where the cursor is
<White_Flame>
in a separate slime buffer
<polezaivsani>
yeah, and it's all jammed into one line
<White_Flame>
that's pretty odd. Can you post the macro & a usage?
<polezaivsani>
even when i do 'pretty print' from a menu, i still get the same result.
<polezaivsani>
oh it's the do-primes from the pcl book, chapter 8
<polezaivsani>
want a url?
<polezaivsani>
is paredit.el known to cause any conflicts with slime?
<dlowe>
no
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<jackdaniel>
4 years is a bit longer than I have anticipated to tackle this task, but I've made a PR to ansi-test to remove logical pathname dependency on tests which are not related to logical pathnames :)
<Grue`>
polezaivsani: what's your lisp implementation?
<polezaivsani>
Grue`: sbcl
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<Grue`>
maybe the macroexpansion is so short it fits into one line?
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<polezaivsani>
Grue`: it does fit alright, i'll see a longer one would make a difference; i was thinking about some semanticaly appropriate formatting :)
<Grue`>
"Whenever possible, the pretty printer displays the entire contents of a section on a single line. However, if the section is too long to fit in the space available, line breaks are inserted at conditional newline positions within the section. "
<polezaivsani>
... and franly i wouldn't know any better, but the PCL book mentioned smt along the lines of 'if the output of macro expansion is crammed into single line, check *print-pretty* is t'
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<Grue`>
i guess it depends on how big your lines are
<sjl_>
polezaivsani: does it work outside of slime? e.g. if you just run sbcl at a shell and evaluate (let ((*print-pretty* t)) (print '(if 1 2 3))) do you get newlines?
<sjl_>
I get the newlines when I do that, even though it would fit on a single line
<polezaivsani>
sjl_: haven't tried it in stand alone repl, but it does gets formatted into multiple lines in slime
<polezaivsani>
Grue`: yeah, i tried it with a larger marco and it does get's pretty printed
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<Bike>
i mean, even with the pretty printer on, if the output isn't that long it will keep it on one line
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<polezaivsani>
thanks for helping me! i'll try to check what it is that i want next time :)
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<polezaivsani>
... prior to making noise here
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<jmercouris>
so I have an interesting question, let's say I have a custom CLOS object
<jmercouris>
or rather lets say I have a defclass inheriting from t or whatever
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<jmercouris>
and when I print it, I want it to print in a way that the reader can evaluate it and make that object
<jmercouris>
is there a generic way to just dump all of the slots in such a way that it can be read by the reader?
<jmercouris>
does that question make sense?
<Bike>
the question makes sense and the answer is no.
<Bike>
but you can write out #.(make-instance ...) and that's almost as simple.
<Bike>
the writer will take care of circularity for you, so you just need to write out the initargs and values appropriately.
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<jmercouris>
I see, interesting, thanks for the answer
<Bike>
also you can't actually make a class that inherits directly from T.
<jmercouris>
ah, I see
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<jmercouris>
so what happens when you don't specify a superclass?
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<no-defun-allowed>
i think it inherits from STANDARD-CLASS
<dreamcompiler>
Correct.
<jmercouris>
Each superclass-name argument specifies a direct superclass of the new class. If the superclass list is empty, then the superclass defaults depending on the metaclass, with standard-object being the default for standard-class.
<jmercouris>
voila!
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I tend to use a constructor function for this
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<jmercouris>
a constructor function? you just wrap make-instance?
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<verisimilitude>
Are any of you running Windows?
<jmercouris>
I'm running *from* Windows, does that count?
<verisimilitude>
Would one of you show me the return value of this expression:
<verisimilitude>
If you can evaluate that, then sure, jmercouris.
<jmercouris>
I'm sure I can eval it, but it will most likely signal a condition ;)
<verisimilitude>
Oh, alright.
<jmercouris>
lol, actually it works
<jmercouris>
#P"/%USERPROFILE%/Documents/"
<jmercouris>
there's the result, you're welcome :)
<jmercouris>
It actually does make sense though, in a very twisted way, I think that could be a valid Unix pathname, right?
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<jmercouris>
shouldn't it just be something like C:\username ?
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<jmercouris>
do you need to use make-pathname? if you are writing for Windows, do you not have a Windows test box?
<verisimilitude>
In practice, a system such as Linux doesn't even require proper UTF-8 encoding; a filename is just any bytes, except zero and forty seven.
<jmercouris>
I would legimitately help you, but I literally just deleted my Windows 10VM very recently
<verisimilitude>
I'll gladly explain what this is for.
<verisimilitude>
So, I've some file writing code and I was never able to properly test the Windows default I had, which is that.
<jmercouris>
You don't have to justify yourself, I am sure you would not ask if it was not important, however I can't help you :\
<jmercouris>
hopefully someone else can, so I'll stop spamming the channel :D
<verisimilitude>
I try pathname defaults in the following order:
<vms14>
jmercouris, I'm tied to plain sbcl with no libraries
<vms14>
since I'll use heliohost as a hosting
<no-defun-allowed>
why do you have to use CGI?
<vms14>
and they just have sbcl with cgi
<jmercouris>
what? no quicklisp?
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<vms14>
I want to make use of that cgi to make some sort of interactive tutorial
<vms14>
nope jmercouris
<jmercouris>
why don't you just spin up an instance on a Droplet
<vms14>
plain lisp
<jmercouris>
seems kind of ridiculous not to be allowed to use any libs
<vms14>
yeah, but I won't make much more than evaluate stuff from an input
<no-defun-allowed>
what a load of shite
<jmercouris>
I don't understand
<jmercouris>
is this a limitation placed upon you? or is this artifical because you insist on using helihost?
<no-defun-allowed>
tell heliohost to git gud
<vms14>
because is a project for a course and I won't pay anything just to make that project
<vms14>
I want to use heliohost because it's free
<no-defun-allowed>
probably a heliohost problem, since their lisp support is very new, and they probably don't know much about the lisp ecosystem
<jmercouris>
you won't pay 5$ to save yourself hundreds of hours of time?
<vms14>
and has lisp as cgi
<vms14>
jmercouris, not for just an exercise
<vms14>
that course lasts 3 months
<jmercouris>
your time must be worthless if you won't spend the 5$
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<jmercouris>
I'm trying to say that in the most polite way possible
<vms14>
I just think I can use the fact heliohost has a lisp cgi to do something with it
<jmercouris>
don't waste your time, Clack, and Lack have been invented because it is *non-trivial*
<vms14>
just for this case
<vms14>
not for production or whatever
<Xach>
yeah, you should make a new web browser instead
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
you got me there, touche
<no-defun-allowed>
well all i have to say is that thinking about CGI in (nth-value 5 (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time))) shouldn't be needed
<verisimilitude>
I could understand that perspective if paying people or organizations online wasn't such a pain, jmercouris.
<vms14>
I really need a library to read from a cgi post or get input?
<jmercouris>
you don't *need* a library, but have you read the CGI protocol spec?
<vms14>
nope
<verisimilitude>
I'll write one for myself, eventually, vms14.
<vms14>
I just have 1 month of web development course xD
<verisimilitude>
I don't suppose you can wait on me, though.
<no-defun-allowed>
so, just install hunchentoot and write something like `(define-easy-handler (http-eval :uri "/eval") (text) (eval (read-from-string text)))`
<vms14>
so I know absolutely nothing
<vms14>
and the project is mostly frontend
<no-defun-allowed>
but of course, don't actually do that because eval from unknown sources is a very, very, VERY bad idea
<vms14>
but I've wanted to extend it a bit using heliohost instead of another host
<jmercouris>
why don't you pick an easier technology?
<jmercouris>
PHP already has nice CGI support
<vms14>
no-defun-allowed, you can limit the things to eval
<vms14>
like make a list of allowed commands
<jmercouris>
if this is mostly a front-end project, and it sounds like you can pick the language, I don't understand why you won't go with something far simpler to implement
<no-defun-allowed>
>PHP >easier
<vms14>
I know you could bypass it
<no-defun-allowed>
pick one, jmercouris
<vms14>
jmercouris, we should be making any backend stuff
<jmercouris>
you know what, might even be a more enriching exercise
<jmercouris>
implement a simple Lisp in PHP
<vms14>
meh
<vms14>
nevermind
<no-defun-allowed>
i wouldn't suggest trying
<jmercouris>
implementing a Lisp interpreter isn't that hard
<no-defun-allowed>
we've got enough Lisp-in-foo languages thanks
<verisimilitude>
Then you have two problems, jmercouris.
<jmercouris>
s/a Lisp interpreter/simple Lisp interpreter over a small subset of functions
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<Xach>
i briefly worked with a company that wrote a php compiler in scheme.
<Xach>
it's open source now
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<jmercouris>
a PHP compiler?
<jmercouris>
did that improve performance in some way?
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<Xach>
jmercouris: that was the idea. your php is too slow, compile it with a lisp program to native code, it gets faster. i don't know if it was successful.
<no-defun-allowed>
friendface made one of those, except it didn't have the Scheme step
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<_death>
vms14: you can use read-char to read a single character without "waiting for enter", assuming the stream is not line buffered
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<jmercouris>
it doesn't have to be so
<jmercouris>
he could store the current statement to be evaluated in a text input or something, and send it as a stream all at once with a special delimiter at the end
<jmercouris>
or better yet a textarea
<jmercouris>
and simply keep reading into a buffer until you get to that delimiter
<jmercouris>
however, allowing arbitrary execution of SBCL via a JS interface, upon brief reflection, feels like a bad idea
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<jmercouris>
I'm sure they've set-up jails and the like, but his account could be compromised pretty easily
<jmercouris>
anyways, going to sleep now, goodnight everyone
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<vms14>
_death, thanks
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<vms14>
I've solved it by adding a '\r\n' with js
<vms14>
just \n
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<vms14>
anyway I wanted to try with post to see if the result would be different, butnope xD
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<vms14>
so I'll learn how to work with strings and replace those characters by what I want
<vms14>
thanks for the help anyway
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<pjb>
_death: what stream? The context was CGI!
<pjb>
_death: there's no interactive I/O with CGI.
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<Josh_2>
How can I remove my structure so I can redefine it as a class??
<pjb>
there's no (delete-structure 'foo)
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<pjb>
so you can only (mapcar 'unintern '(foo make-foo foo-p copy-foo foo-x foo-y foo-z))
<Josh_2>
ah
<Josh_2>
might as well reload my asdf system
<pjb>
ie. the structure still exists (until it's not referenced anywhere and can be garbage collected) only now it uses uninterned names.
<pjb>
Yes.
<Josh_2>
I wonder what will break when I try to reload my system xD
<verisimilitude>
Redefining a structure is undefined behavior, note.
<pjb>
It's a shame, but nowadays computers and I/O is so fast, that yes, you can just reboot the lisp image.
<Josh_2>
verisimilitude: another +1 for changing to clos
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<Josh_2>
Especially while I'm prototyping
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<_death>
pjb: the standard input stream.. indeed, since it's not interactive, read-char would work, wouldn't you say?
<Josh_2>
oof that took a long time to compile
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<_death>
pjb: the real issue is that http is a octet-oriented protocol, at least until you know the textual encoding used
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<pjb>
_death: also, you don't need a final newline to read a batch stream such as sockets in network protocols, as long as the protocol ensures that the data is transmitted (which is the case with the HTTP parameters).
<pjb>
Which I clearly demonstrated with my code :-/
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