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<tsandstr>
Hey guys, anybody working with CL under Gentoo? I'm considering hopping over to Gentoo, and I'm kind of curious about the CL packages in the repos. Would it be best practice to use those official packages? Or use quicklisp? And how do they interact?
<Josh_2>
yes
<tsandstr>
Josh_2: yes what?
<Josh_2>
I'm on sbcl 1.4.9 using Gentoo
<tsandstr>
do you use lisp libraries installed through portage? Or through quicklisp?
<Josh_2>
quicklisp
<Josh_2>
Just like u would with any other distro :O
<Josh_2>
There is an overlay that gives a later version of SBCL
<Josh_2>
Or you can just use amd64~ and get 1.5.0
<phoe>
quicklisp and only quicklisp
<phoe>
I don't use anything system-supplied
<tsandstr>
i'm a bit of a noob with lisp, but is there any particular reason why youy avoid the portage version?
<phoe>
yes, quicklisp is the de-facto standard for distributing Lisp libraries
<tsandstr>
okay
<Josh_2>
Somethings like Stumpwm are in portage so you can emerge that and it will pull in libraries to compile it
<tsandstr>
got it
<tsandstr>
i'm planning on installing stumpwm too. So for stump, go ahead and use portage, but for libraries, use quicklisp?
<Josh_2>
each to their own I suppose
<tsandstr>
will it be an issue to have the same libraries installed through both portage and quicklisp?
<phoe>
I actually don't know, they might conflict with each other
<Josh_2>
They won't conflict
<tsandstr>
how so?
<phoe>
ASDF might get confused when trying to load them
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<tsandstr>
i guess quicklisp will pull deps from the quicklisp local repo
<Josh_2>
Its all handled by Portage
<phoe>
Josh_2: oooh
<phoe>
well then, good
<tsandstr>
oh cool
<tsandstr>
okay
<nirved>
in general portage is lagging
<Josh_2>
wat
<phoe>
the versions are lagging behind, yes
<Josh_2>
I right
<Josh_2>
yeh
<phoe>
that is the issue with all unix package managers
<Josh_2>
but there is Amd64~
<phoe>
whereas quicklisp stays fresh
<phoe>
and ultralisp stays bleeding-edge
<tsandstr>
got it, cool
<pjb>
tsandstr: I used to use gentoo, but I still compiled my own software, which I use everyday (lisp implementations, emacs, rm, etc).
<pjb>
I don't trust some poor chap doing remote administration 9-5 at a distribution company.
<nirved>
I tend to put specific versions in local overlay when needed
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<tsandstr>
hmmm
<pjb>
nirved: and yes, there's also the auto-update problem.
<tsandstr>
so, in general, do you think it would make sense to install Lisp applications (eg StumpWM) through portage, while installing libraries that I plan to use through quicklisp?
<tsandstr>
Or is that a bad approach
<tsandstr>
Is there a "canonical" approach?
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<phoe>
a Canonical approach would be to use Ubuntu
* phoe
mic drop, goes to sleep
<tsandstr>
BOOOOOOOOO
<Josh_2>
oof
<Josh_2>
phoe: I think you should leave for that one xD
* gilberth
picks up the mic
<grewal>
How do you distribute scripts when you use quicklisp?
<gilberth>
DEBIAN RULEZ
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<grewal>
nvm, I think I just overcame my main problem
<rdap>
debian used to rule
<rdap>
ubuntu (minimal) rules harder these days, i'm afraid
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<Josh_2>
Gentoo rules
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<rdap>
it really comes down to this: zfs rules
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<rdap>
therefore ubuntu rules harder than debian
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<rdap>
until the day comes that btrfs rules harder than zfs, if it comes
<Josh_2>
Murderfs for life
<p_l>
rdap: doubtful such time would ever come
<rdap>
yeah, i don't have high hopes myself
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* rdap
wonders if Murderfs is pronounced "murderface"
<ebrasca>
I have find lisp-critic , Does it give good advises?
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<Xach>
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<ebrasca>
Xach: I see empty line.
<rdap>
i do too
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<Xach>
Yes. A mistake on my end. Sorry.
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<rdap>
"The Sieve of Eratosthenes stops when the square of the number we are testing is greater than the last number on the grid."
<pjb>
ebrasca: I don't like lisp-critic too much. I find some advises ill-advisen, some outdated, very few useful. Read it, and use your own ruleset!
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<rdap>
So I only need to generate a list of primes up to the square root of the number that was input
<rdap>
so, generate a list of integers up to the square root..
<rdap>
then copy to a new list every 2nd from the 2nd, every third from the third, every 5th from the 5th, and so on
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<rdap>
then divide the input number by everythin in the list and eliminate everything that doesn't divide by x into an integer
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<rdap>
then the list should contain nothing but prime factors
<pjb>
rdap: yes. But you can avoid generating list of numbers. Using a bit-vector takes less space.
<pjb>
And you can make a bit-vector of only the odd numbers, halving the needed bits.
<rdap>
ah yes, because anything even is a composite of 2
<pjb>
or you can just use com.informatimago.common-lisp.arithmetic.primes:compute-primes-to
<rdap>
i'm not sure i have that, and i feel like that would be cheating
<pjb>
then compare when you're done with yours.
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<rdap>
i will :)
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<aeth>
You have to use a bit vector
<aeth>
You quickly run out of memory with this stuff unless you do
<aeth>
(I guess you could use a byte vector and manually work with bits yourself if you don't trust bit vectors.)
<aeth>
I should clean up and publish my sieve at some point. It is probably the fastest in CL
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<gilberth>
beach: I try to understand my old "regular" expression stuff.
<ebrasca>
pjb: I have found it help changing let* to let and similars.
<beach>
gilberth: Oh, real work! Great!
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<gilberth>
beach: Though, I will call it a day^Wnight now.
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<gilberth>
beach: The thing is: The code base works. I have it in "production" use.
<gilberth>
beach: It even is more correct than _any_ C library for POSIX regular expression that I could find.
<beach>
That sounds like good news.
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<gilberth>
And they don't even compile the regular expression. As in: compiling it to native code eventually. And flex^Wbison cannot do submatch addressing.
<beach>
So what appears to be the problem?
* rdap
ran out of memory :(
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<Guest72158>
aye
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<rdap>
i'm too tired for any more lisping today, night o/
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<phoe>
Morniiiing
<beach>
Hello phoe.
<phoe>
Morning beach
<beach>
Were you able to get in touch with asdf_asdf_asdf or whatever the nick was?
<phoe>
Yes
<phoe>
He ended up on #lisp-pl
<beach>
Excellent!
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<jmercouris>
I'm having trouble with Envy on FreeBSD
<jmercouris>
it works fine on macOS and Linux
<jmercouris>
but it doesn't seem to pick up the environment variables on FreeBSD
<jmercouris>
anyone else have this experience?
<jmercouris>
however if I set the environment variable I want to read via osicat, it seems to work
<jmercouris>
looking at the short source for envy.lisp
<jmercouris>
it seems that asdf::getenv is at fault
<jmercouris>
probably
<jmercouris>
ok, I have confirmed that asdf::getenv is the problem, it returns nil
<jmercouris>
even (uiop:getenv "PATH") returns nil
<jmercouris>
actually wait, PATH works, but my variable set in my shell does not work
<shka__>
asdf afaik redirects system queries to uiop
<jmercouris>
so apparently something is going on with my login shell
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<jmercouris>
because it does pick up PATH, but not APP_ENV
<shka__>
show the script perhaps?
<flip214>
jmercouris: did you export the variable, so that child processes can see it?
<flip214>
PATH is exported by default.
<flip214>
# export APP_ENV=/dev/null # or whatever
<jmercouris>
I did in my .cshrc set APP_ENV = "development"
<jmercouris>
maybe if I also put it in my .profile? or do I have to export it as you say?
<lieven>
try setenv instead of set
<jmercouris>
ok, saving and resourcing
<jmercouris>
re-sourcing
<jmercouris>
ah setenv was key
<jmercouris>
thank you
<jmercouris>
how did you know setenv would do it instead of set?
<lieven>
memories of csh on Sunos 4 from 25 years ago :)
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<lieven>
are the BSDs still using csh as default?
<jmercouris>
yes
<jmercouris>
though adduser prompts you to set whatever you want
<jmercouris>
however, the default account/root account you start with is using csh
<jmercouris>
I use fish on my main machine, and bash before that, so I didn't know much about csh
<jmercouris>
I mean, I still don't know much about csh
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<pjb>
jmercouris: don't use csh.
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<jasom>
minion: memo for jmercouris: don't use csh
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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<grewal>
is there a recommended way to distribute lisp scripts?
<grewal>
I know I can make an image, but I'd rather just share the source code. There seems to be no clean way to handle dependencies
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<_death>
I guess you could use https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html .. in some of my "scripts" I have a quickload form with :silent t , but I also use a custom image that has most of the dependencies already loaded
<dlowe>
grewal: there's some projects that deal with this. cl-launch and roswell come to mind.
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<phoe>
I have a list of triples in form (X Y Z). I am inside a loop that iterates over two variables. How can I find the value of Z if there is a triple with a matching X and Y in the list?
<dlowe>
if you want to blow memory like there's no limit
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<verisimilitude>
You could concatenate the files to be LOADed all at once, grewal.
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<pjb>
grewal: IMO, if it has dependencies, it's not a script anymore.
<grewal>
That's a similar idea to quicklisp bundles.
<pjb>
grewal: imagine a shell script, but it uses non-standard applications and shell libraries!
<pjb>
grewal: how would you distribute it?
<pjb>
grewal: definitely. You make a single-file executable. Or you provide a tarball to install in /opt/apps/$yourscript/ with a script to install in /usr/local/bin/$yourscript
<pjb>
or something like that.
<pjb>
For CL, it's easier to save an executable lisp image.
<grewal>
python solves this by having "batteries included".
<pjb>
grewal: there's cl-launch, but it doesn't work like I want, so in the end, now I build all my CL scripts (that used to hav #!/usr/local/bin/clisp …), in a single executable image called commands, and a bunch of symlinks into it.
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<grewal>
There's just something I like about distributing source code instead of binaries.
<pjb>
grewal: oh yeah, the big problem with cl-launch, is that it compiles the lisp script. This means that you cannot write scripts that modify the environment for the rest of the script. This is something that is routinely done in scripts (bash, ruby, python, perl, lisp, whatever).
<pjb>
Once cl-launch compiles, we're not in the script world anymore, so you can as well compile and save an executable image.
<grewal>
Perhaps have the install script call (load file) (save-lisp-and-die)
<pjb>
grewal: but if you use quicklisp, it's difficult to manage.
<grewal>
I guess the biggest hangup is (potentially) having multiple copies of the same libraries
<pjb>
your scripts can be used by any users on any system. You cannot override the user's ~/quicklisp, so you have to setup a quicklisp elsewhere. (/usr/local/share/myscript/quicklisp for example). This is not a script, when you have external file dependencies.
<pjb>
grewal: not copies, versions!
<dtw>
grewal: You can distribute code, of course. Write a Makefile that installs Quicklisp and eventually compiles executable. I do that: https://github.com/tlikonen/tagdb
<pjb>
grewal: if the user can make a (quick-update) and break your script because it fetches a new version of a library, this is BAD!
<grewal>
pjb: I meant copies. If two different lisp images have cl-ppcre baked in, then you have 2 copies of the same library on your system
<grewal>
pjb: Instead of just 1 system-wide library
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<grewal>
Obviously, if you need to pin to a particular version, then you have no choice. But most apis are stable
<jasom>
grewal: I would suggest just using ASDF and the consumer can quickload things if needed
<pjb>
grewal: again, it's not copies, it's two versions that happend to be the same version, but that at any time, can change in one, and not in the other.
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<pjb>
grewal: or you must be prepared to recompile all your lisp software as soon as you do a (quick-update) (every month!)
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<jasom>
But I have also written build scripts as dtw suggests.
<pjb>
Thanks to copy-and-paste, it's innoccuous. But thanks anyways.
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<dale>
I'm trying to do something like (let ((n 42)) (loop for n = n then n+1 until (>= n 50))) but n is nil on the first trip through the loop. Is there a good (or "remotely sane, relative to loop") way to have loop initialize its n from the surrounding n binding?
<verisimilitude>
Why don't you use LOOP FOR N FROM N TO 50 instead?
<makomo>
dale: i've had the same issue many times but haven't found a satisfying solution
<verisimilitude>
If you want an unchanged binding, use WITH instead, dale.
<verisimilitude>
That's what it's for.
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<dale>
verisimilitude: Sorry, my simplified example was obviously oversimplified. The actual code is a bit more complicated: http://ix.io/1Ezd/lisp
<dale>
verisimilitude: If I use WITH, how do I reassign n on each iteration after the first? Just slam in a DO (SETQ ...)?
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<makomo>
dale: maybe just using another name for N would be the best, i don't know
<makomo>
it's lame, but yeah
<dale>
makomo: Yeah, I might do that.
<verisimilitude>
So, N here is an outside variable?
<dale>
verisimilitude: Yes.
<verisimilitude>
I agree that a simple renaming is likely easiest, but I'm wondering why you need N = N to start with.
<verisimilitude>
Well, just rename it then for the easiest way to do this, dale.
<makomo>
N = N seems like a valid use-case to me
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<dale>
verisimilitude: I could rewrite it with a single FOR clause a la: for marker = (nav-stack-go-newer nav-stack-global-stack n) then (nav-stack-go-newer nav-stack-global-stack direction)
<dale>
verisimilitude: That's just a bit more verbose.
<makomo>
you'd like to start off with the outer value but then do something else on all the other iterations
<makomo>
dale: i've had a construct like that as well in some code, but the duplication annoys me
<dale>
I was surprised that "FOR n = n" seems to be like (let (n) (setq n n) ...) rather than (let ((n n)) ...).
<dale>
Well, I'm mostly thankful not to have been missing something obvious about loop. Thanks folks.
<verisimilitude>
This is odd, dale.
<verisimilitude>
I checked to make certain and FOR N = N should work like a LET and so work.
<verisimilitude>
Are you certain there's nothing odd about the outer expression?
<verisimilitude>
That's the wrong page; disregard that.
<dale>
Let me put together a complete example that generates an error.
<verisimilitude>
Well, nevermind.
<verisimilitude>
The FOR = clause does set to NIL, yes. You should simply change the symbol you're using.
<dale>
I just may. Thanks.
<verisimilitude>
I swear this is one of those pitfalls of LOOP that I had in mind at one point and had simply forgotten by now.
<verisimilitude>
So, what are you programming, dale?
<dale>
verisimilitude: See, I was trying to very carefully avoid disclosing that I'm actually using cl-loop in Elisp.
<dale>
verisimilitude: Writing a little code to help me navigating back and forth through source files in Emacs.
<verisimilitude>
Alright.
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<dale>
But before I asked here I did test what I believed to be equivalent code in SBCL first. :)
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<comborico1611>
I am trying to STEP through a program. But the inner workings of the REPL continue to be included in STEP output. The last thing I've done is called STEP from within the compiled file. I've tried with both SBCL and Allegro. Any ideas?
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<moldybits>
btw, maybe you could make a minimal testcase showing what you get vs what you'd like