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<PuercoPope>
Xach: Don't know if you are aware but https://www.xach.com/clhs has been returning 502 for the last few days. Its my goto search method when outside of Emacs.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<LdBeth>
Morning
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
whartung: before I learned CL, I implemented restarts myself in Python to facilitate a major data migration from a schemaless database to one with a strictly enforced schema
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It saved me numerous cases of "wait half an hour for a crash to happen, change the code and wait half an hour to see if the fix worked"
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Although this was a semi-interactive situation: when there was an exception, I'd inspect the data, add a rule to handle it to a collection of rules and then restart the migration process which could now handle the new category of malformed data automatically.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
To discover a language with this as a first class feature was mindblowing.
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<oni-on-ion>
=)
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<shka__>
hey
<shka__>
when two initargs are provided for the slot, which one takes the precedence if both are present in the make-instance call?
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<Xach>
PuercoPope: sorry about that. i have moved servers and there have been some regressions. I will try to fix asap.
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<katco>
hey all! i'm learning about machine learning, and i was wondering if i'd be able to use CL as i go for prototyping and such. what's the state of ML in the CL space these days? cliki doesn't list many libs.
<beach>
Hello katco.
<katco>
howdy beach
<beach>
katco: Common Lisp is a general-purpose language so you can certainly use it where other languages can be used as well.
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<beach>
katco: Common Lisp has many advantages compared to other languages, independently of the domain.
<katco>
beach: maybe i should have qualified this: i am familiar and use CL regularly
<beach>
katco: Not many people use Common Lisp these days, including for machine learning, so it might be tricky to find libraries for that particular domain.
<beach>
Ah, OK.
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<katco>
i am aware of the unfortunate fact that CL has fell out of favor. and that's why i'm reaching out to the community to see if maybe there's some well-supported cffi bindings to one of the popular ML frameworks, or if anyone has had some success with something like burgled-batteries, or is even growing a well-supported CL framework
<katco>
wow, apparently my grammar isn't great this early in the morning ^.^
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<p_l>
katco: I think some people are putting hopes on Clasp to use TensorFlow
<katco>
heisig: i don't use py bindings that much. is this the community-preferred way to consume python?
<heisig>
The community-preferred way is not to use Python :)
<katco>
haha well yes :) but sometimes we must
<katco>
i am brand new to the ML space, but it looks like tensorflow is working hard to expose all of their bindings via C, so i wonder if cffi might be the preferred way to consume that
<katco>
beach: thank you for your thoughtful responses, btw
<beach>
Sure. Sorry I could not be of any help.
<katco>
you were very friendly, and that is enough. thank you!
* beach
blushes.
<_death>
katco: may want to check out cl-online-learning / mgl
<p_l>
katco: C-level interface to TensorFlow is pretty low-level
<p_l>
they pretty much design stuff through Python :/
<p_l>
Python is the shitty Fortran 77 code of Physics
<katco>
yeah, i came across mgl, and it looked interesting. unfortunately i'll be sharing my work with non lispers, so i think i need to be leveraging something they can use/understand in `(not :lisp)`
<p_l>
but in "data science"
<katco>
p_l: ah, it sounds like you have some experience in this space
<p_l>
katco: mostly in supporting "data scientists"
<p_l>
my work mostly revolves around so-called DevOps
<katco>
oh cool :)
<katco>
i am around that space as well
<p_l>
which means the pains of Python every time I hit something mentioning ML or one of the many names for applied statistics
<p_l>
(except for the cases heavy on Java and Hadoop, then you have PAIN of Hadoop)
<p_l>
katco: CFFI to TensorFlow could be done pretty fast, the bigger issue would be that TF C API is, from my understanding, pretty low-level
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<katco>
p_l: that surprises me a little. i assumed since they were putting the c api forth as the way for languages to interop with tf, that it would have the same level of semantics as the py bindings
<p_l>
katco: the convenience, Quality of Life code is in Python
<katco>
p_l: ah, i see. well, maybe that's the correct approach? every language has its idioms
<p_l>
to quote the docs, C API is made for regularity and consistence rather than ease of use
<p_l>
due to being designed as language bridge
<p_l>
that said, it looks like a weekend with SWIG
<katco>
that sounds like a good thing, but maybe inconvenient for me :)
<katco>
the c api i mean ^
<katco>
there is github.com/chunsj/tf
<p_l>
apparently one of the main contenders is actually for Luar
<p_l>
*Lua
<katco>
it looks pseudo-maintained, if not minimal
<p_l>
very minimal
<katco>
so i was just looking at swig vs. cl-autowrap
<p_l>
including hardcoded paths to macos
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<katco>
opinions on which is more robust?
<p_l>
I have used SWIG, I haven't used cl-autowrap (it wasn't an option last time I did FFI)
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<katco>
i'm also trying to balance how productive i'd be in CL vs. yak-shaving just so i can use it haha
<p_l>
katco: I think CL has pretty good chances there
<katco>
pretty good chances for yak-shaving?
<p_l>
especially if you write a compiler for a TF DSL on top
<p_l>
katco: some yak shaving for a very aerodynamic yak
<katco>
my understanding is that pytorch is "better" for research, and is preferred by the academic crowd
<katco>
_death: do you know if Carlos is in here? or if they plan on maintaining this?
<katco>
i don't know what the license for this is either. hm.
<_death>
katco: I do not
<katco>
found an email in the asd and reached out
<shka__>
pytorch is overall a better design i think
<shka__>
and one that would blend itself towards lisp more
<katco>
shka__: yeah? would you mind expounding on that? i'm very open to being influenced atm :)
<katco>
i was kind of leaning towards tf because it looked like the ops side of things was more production-ready, and the ecosystem was broader
<katco>
but supposedly onnx allows you to freely flow between frameworks
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<shka__>
katco: it has nicely layered architecture with exposed interface in each layer
<shka__>
so it allows you to experiment freely
<shka__>
without strong need for crap like Keras
<katco>
ha! i was also looking at keras because it was suggested that it was good for learning ML
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<phoe>
random news: the CCL binaries with bootstrapped package-local nicknames are now available at CCL's github releases page
<p_l>
do current builds run on Mojave without issue?
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<phoe>
I think so
<phoe>
The current release has a darwin build
<phoe>
So go ahead and try running it
<phoe>
In the worst case, you'll be the first person to report a bug
<phoe>
(I don't have a macos VM nearby to test it myself)
<p_l>
nah, I got rid of macs
<p_l>
but it was a bit of a problem in december
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<phoe>
I remember that
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<phoe>
p_l: yes, they work on Mojave.
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<saravia>
hello, nice to meet you, but, how to install cl-utilities?, please help me and sorry for my bad english
<beach>
Hello saravia. Never heard of that system. What is in it?
<jackdaniel>
saravia: follow instructions on quicklisp.org
<jackdaniel>
when you have quicklisp in place, just type in repl (ql:quickload 'cl-utilities)
<saravia>
and the repl just run with sbcl at terminal no?
<beach>
You could do that, but you need to install Quicklisp first, and you need to load it into your process before you can type the form that jackdaniel showed you.
<beach>
saravia: But if you are going to work with Common Lisp, we highly recommend you use the Common Lisp system through SLIME.
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<saravia>
i introduce to lisp for use stumpwm, too run with SLIM?
<saravia>
SLIME**
<beach>
Your window manager doesn't matter. SLIME is a module for Emacs. It will provide a much better development environment than you can get by using only the terminal.
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<saravia>
ow i see what the RELP is open inside sblc next to run (ql:add-to-init-file) command, no?
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<phoe>
yes
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<PuercoPope>
saravia: It is a good idea to run SLIME/SLY with StumpWM. It makes it easier to configure it on the fly as well as debugging any issue you may encounter
<phoe>
PuercoPope: I see the church of emacs has strengthened
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<PuercoPop>
phoe: Why is that?
<phoe>
PuercoPop: you are now a pope.
<phoe>
...oh, well, were. For a while.
* PuercoPop
lols
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<mfiano>
Does the maintainer of the hu.dwim.* systems come around here?
<phoe>
mfiano: who is he? check the ASD file
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<mfiano>
;;; Copyright (c) 2009 by the authors.
<mfiano>
Does not specify a maintainer
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<fe[nl]ix>
mfiano: Attila is not around lately
<phoe>
mfiano: it should specify an :author
<phoe>
it wouldn't be in quicklisp otherwise
<mfiano>
Fair enough. Since this is such a low level library that is depended on by quite a few pieces of software, and I discovered a bug that breaks the REPL, I guess I'll just be more careful about the dependencies I use.
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<phoe>
which bug?
<fe[nl]ix>
mfiano: you can fix it and send him a patch
<mfiano>
I don't know how to fix it. Apparently there is a KLUDGE that is to fix SLIME, but breaks Sly. It explicitly redefines an unexported function in SBCL
<mfiano>
Well my attempts to contact attila in the past regarding alexandria have went unsuccessful, so I might just have to rework my stack to rid myself of this mess
<phoe>
mfiano: I don't think attila actively maintains alexandria anymore
<PuercoPop>
projectured is from the hu.dwim group so the number would be 0?
<phoe>
that's a very good question that dlowe has asked'
<phoe>
yep, seems like it
<mfiano>
I discovered it because I use arrow-macros, which depends on hu.dwim.walker
<phoe>
...hmm, wait a second then
<phoe>
I have no arrow macros in there
<phoe>
I might not have computed transitive dependencies then
<mfiano>
Actually my utility library depends on arrow-macros, and that in turn is used by all of my software, some of which is used by lots of things such as pngload/opticl/mezanno
<mfiano>
mezzano*
<mfiano>
Actually my pngload changes aren't in the latest dist yet actually, so that might not be true just yet.
<mfiano>
Are there any policies in Quicklisp regarding this, or just that it must build?
<phoe>
mfiano: AFAIK the latter
<Xach>
it must build
<mfiano>
Because that could surely cause future additions not to build, and it wouldn't be the redefining package's problem.
<phoe>
there's no one to actually curate the code though
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<Xach>
mfiano: each project is loaded in isolation. it would be interesting to load in combination.
<Xach>
what pairs of projects cannot work together
<Xach>
there are plenty of easy cases where there are package name clashes
<Xach>
(easy cases to detect)
<phoe>
Xach: this behaviour actually didn't "break" anything test-wise
<mfiano>
Yes I've found several, because people like using 1-2 character global nicknames
<phoe>
it just redefined a thing that causes visual inconsistenty
<_death>
seen in a commit message from 2018-01-26: "I've decided to banish hu.dwim libraries because hu.dwim.asdf redefines SB-KERNEL:LINE-LENGTH and ASDF internals. It may not cause an immediate problem, but is not something I want to depend on."
<phoe>
_death: commit message there?
<phoe>
s/there/where/
<_death>
phoe: in one of my (unpublished) repos
<mfiano>
Ha
<phoe>
_death: you could have prevented this
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<phoe>
how do you feel now
<_death>
phoe: chaotic neutral
<phoe>
right
<phoe>
might save your life, might steal your car™
<mfiano>
phoe: attila wrote back and says:
<mfiano>
"please hide your comments on the SBCL bug, and i'll also hide mine, to keep that bug on topic."
<mfiano>
I think he confused me for you, because our names are similar
<phoe>
Ha
<phoe>
tell him everything's fine, and the other Mike has hidden his comments
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<mfiano>
Thanks for your help with this. That sure got his attention fast
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<phoe>
<3
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<mfiano>
In other news, I'm sort of excited to be starting a 6 month CL contract this week :)
<phoe>
mfiano: the Sony one?
<mfiano>
Nope, the one for jmercouris's company
<phoe>
Oh, I was about to ask about that one
<phoe>
Good stuff! Good luck to you
<mfiano>
Thank you sir
<phoe>
Xach: I think you or someone else actually posted some code that checked how many packages have conflicting nicknames
<phoe>
And there were lists of implementation-internal packages in there
<phoe>
We could modify that code in order to query how many systems define something in the implementation-internal packages.
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<phoe>
That should allow us to figure out if there are any timebombs ticking inside them.
<PuercoPop>
mfiano: That's about the next browser right?
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<mfiano>
Not quite, though we may work on that some.
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<PuercoPop>
mfiano: was going to suggest lifting the help system from lispkit. It renders the 'keymaps' to HTML using djula on the fly. Anyway best of luck working with CL for 💰!
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<Xach>
phoe: pfdietz recently took an interest in th etopic
<mfiano>
Thanks!
<Xach>
phoe: i have code called qlmapper that makes it a little easier to load each quicklisp project
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<phoe>
actually the question is, do we as a Quicklisp-centered community now need to spend time to actually curate the code inside the most used and popular™ QL-included systems
<phoe>
curate in a wide meaning of the word
<phoe>
basically, do we need someone to look over the systems and their code and keep on watching them as they change and so on and bla bla bla
<phoe>
project integration maintainership stuff
<sjl>
If I ever win the startup lottery and end up with enough money to not have to work, I'd love to maintain a quicklisp dist called SlowLisp that only contained code/changes I'd audited/reviewed.
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<pjb>
sjl: this is what Elon Musk said. Then instead of 1 startup, he started 4 of them! Now he has 4 times more work! (Space X, Tesla, Boring, and the brain-computer neural interface company).
<phoe>
sjl: my question is, is there currently a demand for such a thing? A curated/reviewed/whatever Quicklisp dist? If yes, how much monetary support is it able to generate in order for someone to be able to regularly devote time to it?
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<oni-on-ion>
i would have never thought that QL isn't already curated/reviewed/etc
<phoe>
It'll likely depend on who is doing the maintainership of that dist; it'll need to be a trusted enough someone, so their own name/nickname is a quality brand of sorts.
<sjl>
phoe: I mean, I would use it if it existed and I trusted the curator(s).
<phoe>
oni-on-ion: of course it's not, no one has the time to look at all the Lisp code inside it
<sjl>
I would also pay some small amount each month. I don't know how much.
<phoe>
sjl: I wonder how many people/how much of the Lisp community shares your attitude
<sjl>
Yeah, that's a good question.
<phoe>
I'd surely do the same, too
<sjl>
I don't know the answer.
<oni-on-ion>
i have faith in sbcl
<phoe>
Do we start some sorta survey then?
<dlowe>
I already pay $5 to quicklisp
<phoe>
oni-on-ion: what has SBCL to do with this
<phoe>
dlowe: quicklisp itself isn't what I'm talking about here; quicklisp itself doesn't do anything with curating code
<sjl>
dlowe: is there a way to subscribe? I think I donated to quicklisp at some point but if there's an easy way to subscribe I should just do that.
<oni-on-ion>
phoe, whoa just a joke =) 'if sbcl accepts it, then fine by me'
<phoe>
it just ensures that it builds before packaging it and distributing.
<dlowe>
sjl: yeah, I just set up a recurring in paypal
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<oni-on-ion>
=)
<phoe>
the thing we describe here is on a level above that - before it's distributed, there's a step of actually understanding wtf the code is doing and how it's structured and whether it breaks something or not, and so on, and so on
<phoe>
so donating to quicklisp isn't equivalent to donating to such a project, unless quicklisp itself decides to tip in - but that would be quicklisp's decision to make if such a thing ever happens
<phoe>
but that's a farfetched thought, there isn't even such a project at the moment
<phoe>
and the question is whether it's viable to start one
<sjl>
Right.
<phoe>
do we conduct some sorta survey then? if yes, what sort of questions do we put in there and who would we appoint as the to-be-curators?
<phoe>
the last question is important since people would ask that one
<oni-on-ion>
just need type inference
<phoe>
do I know and trust the person enough to use their reviewed code and to pay them €
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<oni-on-ion>
as it could/should be automated at some point, type inference (if that is the right terms) would help a lot
<phoe>
oni-on-ion: what does type inference have to do with this
<oni-on-ion>
if you can't see it then don't worry about it.
<phoe>
and does the person in question agree, and have the means and time and will to actually devote a part of their time to spend on working on such a reviewed dist, bla bla bla
<phoe>
it is a surprisingly complex task, to successfully bootstrap such a project
<phoe>
wew boi
<PuercoPop>
phoe: more than curation, better tools for 'independent coordination' may help the community the most. Having an aggregate of all the open issues/PRs for the repositories in Quicklisp? (Maybe gamified with Karma but I don't like its effect of people) It would be easier to figure out how to help or help reviewing other Prs
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<_death>
if I depend on a library/implementation, I review the changes to it already, at least skimming each new commit.. but then this wasn't the case in any company I worked for..
<oni-on-ion>
also there is responsibility if it is a human person, "oh sorry guys i must have overlooked that...
<oni-on-ion>
"
<_death>
every now and then when I decide to update things, I have a git-fetch-all command that fetches commits for all third-party repos, and I review and merge the commits (or rebase, if I maintain a patch queue).. it can take an hour or so
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<phoe>
PuercoPop: this requires that all Quicklisp projects have usable issue trackers
<phoe>
I have no idea if the darcs-hosted hu.dwim has one
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<PuercoPop>
phoe: covering GitHub and Gitlab should cover most of them. 80% is more than enough
<PuercoPop>
If the Fediverse would reach the code forge's it would be possible to have a more abstract implementation
<phoe>
yesss!
<phoe>
the first issue with package-local nicknames in CCL
<phoe>
I know that I screwed something up
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<pfdietz>
I was the one who posted the package name collision code
<phoe>
pfdietz: thanks, I'll take a look at it in a spare while.
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<pfdietz>
It does not actually execute the defpackage forms. It can't, since in general they are in conflict. So it cheats.
<phoe>
Yes, I see.
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<phoe>
It's going to be much harder to actually find internal symbols because of reader conditionals.
<pfdietz>
If I wanted to be fancy I'd use Eclector.
<pfdietz>
Also, I'd use the restarts SBCL now has for package errors in the reader.
<pfdietz>
Even with its inadequacies, it finds quite a few conflicts when run on the current quicklisp dist.
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<phoe>
Fun!
<phoe>
There's a CCL fire I need to put out now though. So I'll likely take a raincheck on QL stuff.
<pfdietz>
My next project is a mutation testing framework for CL. Check the adequacy of your test suite by mutating your code and seeing if the tests catch the bugs. The key is to recognize when a mutation is not a bug.
<phoe>
Oh yes, the valid mutants issue
<pfdietz>
I applied a prototype of this to some implementations of CL built ins from SBCL, and ansi-tests. New tests were needed!
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<PuercoPop>
fiddlerwoaroof: I've been trying to use git notes as a 'staging area' for the PR message
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
yeah
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've not experimented all that much with git notes
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<PuercoPop>
Magit makes it easy to make them visible. Its either that or keep squashing everything into a large commit
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<phoe>
this is the weirdest bug I have ever encountered
<phoe>
The function found in the stacktrace, %LOCK-WHOSTATE-STRING, attempts to format a string, and in order to format it, it needs to prettyprint a symbol. My prettyprinting is broken, as it unnecessarily prints a package prefix, so it looks up a package, which looks up package local nicknames, which tries to grab the PLN lock, which, when there's lock contention from multiple threads, attempts to set an
<phoe>
informational message to the thread saying on which lock it is waiting, and that informational message is the value of the function %LOCK-WHOSTATE-STRING, which then gets called...
<phoe>
but hey, who would have thought that PLNs would have broken multithreaded locks
<Bike>
i'd be nervous about printing much of anything near a lock