Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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<Xach> This is a pain when trying to print code. By default things print with the subpackage and not the main package.
<Xach> Especially if the idea is "the specific subpackage is an implementation detail"
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<phoe> I don't know a way around this, other than defining the API package first and having implementation packages define stuff on the API's symbols.
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<phoe> Instead of having the API package just reexport stuff from other packages.
<oni-on-ion> jasom, alright thank you. i will take a look at that ,but it does seem a bit overexhaustive atm.
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<jasom> oni-on-ion: obviously if I were happy with things as they are now, I wouldn't have made that prototype that _death linked earlier :)
<oni-on-ion> jasom, oh! i dodged it because of acronym, generally projects with acros are beyond my level of academic qualifications i find =) did not realise it was yours.
<oni-on-ion> in the description, exactly describes what i was looking for. i wonder also if it could help with lisp sandboxing
<jasom> oni-on-ion: it doesn't help with sandboxing because it still uses lisp packages under-the-hood
<jasom> so you could still do (find-package "some-long-name")
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<jasom> oni-on-ion: and if you do decide to use it, then perhaps limit the characters it installs reader-macros for to ascii (though that does mean that tokens starting with non-ascii characters would be read as normal).
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<_death> you can see an example of a restricted CL sandbox in https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot/tree/master/src
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<zulu-inuoe> Hello, world! Anyone here running SLIME on MacOS Catalina? I'm trying to help somebody right now who's getting errors loading cl+ssl, but only when running through SLIME. Even (ql:quickload :swank) at the terminal works fine and they can start a swank server manually
<zulu-inuoe> (ql:quickload :cl+ssl) works fine too, for reference. They'd previously had issues which they solved via a brew install openssh
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<Xach> zulu-inuoe: what errors?
<Xach> zulu-inuoe: i had some recent errors too but they were fixed by cleared fasls.
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<zulu-inuoe> Xach: Unfortunately not. It looks like it's hanging completely, no messages in *Messages*, and they didn't see any relevant output in the inferior-lisp buffer they're giving it another shot now
<zulu-inuoe> Before, it was hitting the LDB (before installing openssh)
<Xach> yikes
<Xach> I guess I'm still on mojave
<Xach> I thought I had already upgraded
<zulu-inuoe> Look forward to pain then :D
<zulu-inuoe> actually, it looks like this might be user error. I just looked at their log and they have ;; Swank started at port: 50078. and no relevant errors afterwards. Might be SLIME's not configured right to bring up the fancy repl
<zulu-inuoe> .. Huh. Why it it starting on port 50078, actually, rather than the 4005 default? That might be part of this too.
<_death> 4005 is only the default if you call swank:create-server
<zulu-inuoe> Oh I see. So that should be fine then
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<zulu-inuoe> Okay. Update. I was misunderstanding exactly what was happening. SLIME is in fact connecting successfully, and they get the repl and can eval happily all day. But then if they (ql:quickload :cl+ssl), it hands in trying to load it
<zulu-inuoe> .
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<zulu-inuoe> hangs*. However, this does not happen if they just (ql:quickload :cl+ssl) at a bare SBCL REPL
<zulu-inuoe> (no output in the SBCL terminal, BTW, beyond the client having connected)
<zulu-inuoe> What jolly fun. I do hope it turns out to be something stupid simple
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<_death> did you try with :verbose t? or loading the foreign library manually?
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<_death> could also try to save an image with it loaded in the terminal..
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<harovali> hi! I started emacs as user not as root, as usual. Then ran slime. I can edit /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/ using tramp with sudo. Is it possible to run (compile ...) on that root-owned file and directory? If yes, how? thanks !
<harovali> I mean (compile "/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/swank.lisp")
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<harovali> never mind, changed owner of /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/ and compiled fine
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<ArthurStrong> beach: good morning indeed
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<reg32> Does anybody know why Roswell has a C part and hasn't been fully written in CL?
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<easye> reg32: Roswell depends on fairly portable C to do things one uses Bourne or Bash scripting for.
<easye> Whoops. Talking to myself apparently. Again.
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<flip214> easye: no, we're all listening eagerly!
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<Shinmera> It's in C so it can be bootstrapped easily.
<Shinmera> Or in the very least that was the initial idea.
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<pjb> easye: I use CL to write my scripts. Why should one choose to use C for that? Beyond comprehension…
<Shinmera> Personally I would have written everything in CL and then dumped binaries for the various platforms.
<pjb> Shinmera: we're really past the bootstrapping phase. Well, ok, I will agree that we could have a few more CL compilers, including cross compilers. I guess this will be easy to implement with sicl.
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<Shinmera> pjb: The point of Roswell is to be able to get CL when you don't have CL already.
<Shinmera> The solution they perceived was to write a C program that could fetch a CL for you.
* beach was about to ask what problem Roswell solves.
<Shinmera> You don't need to tell me what the right way to do it is, it wasn't my idea.
<pjb> Shinmera: well, that purpose is also incomprehensible. I have lisp installed on my systems even before the kernel or the system is completely installed, since the first thing I put on a new system is emacs and ccl...
<Shinmera> Good for you.
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<easye> pjb: if one really wanted to work across classical Windows/Unix, writing a small piece of portable C might be the way to go.
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<splittist> surely javascript on electron
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<easye> splittist: I am thinking just a slim executable in a single file. Electron needs an installer or some kind.
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<galdor> to be honest, to download build and install CL implementations, neither C nor CL are the simplest choice
<galdor> shell scripts exist for this kind of task
<galdor> of course one could use CL and UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM but it's just painful
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<aeth> The easiest way to bootstrap CL is CL imo
<aeth> Good for Linux, where you'll probably have a(n outdated) CL in your distro
<aeth> On Windows, you'll just download a random .EXE unless the typical Windows workflow has changed significantly. In this case, SBCL has EXEs
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<aeth> So at least two OSes have easy access to a CL for bootstrapping
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<p_l> aeth: I mostly use roswell on macos
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<johnjay> p_l: ah, maybe you can explain what that does exactly
<johnjay> i was confused as hell by this thing I downloaded that said to use ros or something in the make file
<johnjay> i think somehow I managed to trick quicklisp into getting everything built though
<p_l> johnjay: it provides a somewhat easy way to bootstrap a bunch of implementations and also supports triggering building complete applications with apropriate wrappers in automated way
<p_l> as in, QL by itself doesn't provide a way to one-command build a program that will be registered so you can just run it from OS
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<johnjay> ah ok
<johnjay> see I specifically wanted to run it from inside sbcl so i could debug stuff
<johnjay> so... yeah that was weird
<johnjay> the small glimpse i had into building with lisp terrified and confused me
<phoe> johnjay: (asdf:make :system-name) tends to be good enough, usually
<phoe> I have it hooked up to https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
<phoe> for the systems that I need built, that is
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<johnjay> >Specifically it is geared towards applications with foreign library dependencies that run some kind of GUI.
<phoe> if you have no foreign libraries and/or GUI then no one prevents you from using this library either
<johnjay> ok. it sounded a bit like saying the new Toyota is geared toward bipedal organisms with binocular vision.
<phoe> you can deploy pure-Lisp server applications with it as well, you just don't use the parts responsible for handling foreign libraries
<Shinmera> johnjay: far from everything has foreign library dependencies, and far from everything presents a GUI
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<johnjay> Shinmera: that's... not very reassuring. but yes that is correct.
<Shinmera> ? It's not meant to be reassuring, it's refuting your weird comparison.
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<harovali> hi!, I'm debbugging with slime. Is it possible after a function call, see the return value of a function after 's' or 'x' keystroke in the code block buffer?
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<phoe> if anything, lack of GUI and lack of foreign code are two very reassuring things about a program
<phoe> *especially* from a Lisp programmer's perspective
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<phoe> since it means that we don't need to care about two things that tend to screw up often in various twisted and difficult ways
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<Xach> harovali: no
<Xach> harovali: i use trace for that
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<harovali> Xach thanks
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<harovali> In the stepper in slime bound but not used variables are not shown in the frame's variables ? Why ?
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<Xach> I don't know, sorry, I haven't used the stepper
<Xach> I more often use (break) and high debug (C-u C-c C-c) to look at local variables.
<jackdaniel> harovali: you may try to set high debugging settings
<jackdaniel> it might be that compiler optimized away things which are not used
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<harovali> jackdaniel: 3 is highest?
<jackdaniel> yes
<harovali> jackdaniel: can I *check* by querying a variable (sbcl) which level it is ?
<jackdaniel> I don't think you can using ansi cl functions
<harovali> Xach, What is high debug different than pressing x for the next ?
<harovali> jackdaniel: it's implementation defined for sure
<harovali> oh ! hich debug is not a thing, it's 3
<harovali> yes I'm in 3
<jackdaniel> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss251_w.htm ← interesting from a historical perspective (regarding optimize debug)
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<harovali> jackdaniel: yes it is
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<pfdietz> Why does https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp not show everyone talking in this channel? Must be some irc oddity.
<Shinmera> pfdietz: Huh?
<Shinmera> I see no messages in my chat that aren't in the log
<pfdietz> Ah, Xach was so light in color I missed him. nvm
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<Xach> pale as a ghost
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<pfdietz> Xach: do you have download stats for ql projects? This was posted on the blog in Feb 2018, but not more recently.
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<phoe> I kinda wish it was generated and posted somewhere automatically with each QL release
<edgar-rft> In Common Lisp chronology, Februar 2018 was yesterday morning
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<Xach> pfdietz: i don't have them handy any more.
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<eeeeeta> SYMBOL-MACROLET is the best thing ever
* eeeeeta <3
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<pfdietz> macrolet and symbol-macrolet, while cool and useful, don't work well with code walkers. :/
<Odin-> Aren't there a ton of things in CL that can mess with those?
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<Bike> if you have parse-macro and enclose, macrolet's fine with code walking, isn't it?
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<Bike> oh, and augment-environment i guess.
<Bike> i suppose usually you don't have that stuff
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<phoe> not unless you use some sort of cltl2 package
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<pjb> pfdietz: bad code walkers. Any code walker worth its bits will deal with macrolets and symbol-macrolets perfectly well.
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<pjb> pfdietz: the only thing that is bad for code walkers, is implementation-specific special forms. (Unless the implementation provides an equivalent macro).
<pfdietz> Specifically, the code walker in ITERATE
<pfdietz> ITERATE gives up walking if it finds macrolet or symbol-macrolet. Which means if you wrap a form in one of those, or have a macro expansion that introduces them, an iterate form can break.
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<Bike> wow, really? that's pretty unfortunate.
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<eeeeeta> huh
<eeeeeta> I mainly find SYMBOL-MACROLET useful for when you have a CLOS object inside another CLOS object
<Shinmera> I'm reminded that I should switch out FOR's home-brewed, shitty iteration protocol for the extensible sequences one.
<eeeeeta> and you don't want to write (accessor-2 (accessor-1 thing))
<eeeeeta> (that is, multiple times)
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<Bike> i don't really see how you could handle, like, a macrolet macro body referring to an outer macro definition without implementation support, tho.
<Bike> symbol macrolet by itself could probably be managed
<Bike> well, no, but then a macro function could call macroexpand, huh
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<Xach> pfdietz: what stats interest you?
<katco> hey all, i've just made public 2 projects which could use more eyes and constructive criticism: https://github.com/kat-co/gir2cl, https://github.com/kat-co/cl-apache-arrow
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<harovali> hi! Whats the meaning of #(0 0 595 841) ? Or its type maybe ?
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<Odin-> Vector.
<eeeeeta> harovali: that's a vector
<harovali> hmmm. Is there a trivial way of turning a vector into a list ?
<Bike> (coerce vector 'list)
<harovali> thanks!!
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<pjb> harovali: with the default read table, #( is a dispatching reader macro that reads a vector.
<pjb> harovali: note: nothing says that you are reading that with the default readtable…
<pjb> harovali: you have to ensure that.
<pjb> harovali: you can read a list with the ( reader macro. So, delete that # character and you get a list! (with the default readtable).
<pjb> harovali: you can ask the type of objects to the REPL yourself: (type-of #(0 0 595 841)) #| --> (simple-vector 4) |#
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<harovali> pjb thanks!
<harovali> this is in a library which hopefully I'd like to preserve in its allmighty integrity :)
<pjb> Note that you can use the # dispatching macro integer argument to specify the length of the vector: #10(t) #| --> #(t t t t t t t t t t) |#
<pjb> #10(1 2 3 42) #| --> #(1 2 3 42 42 42 42 42 42 42) |#
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<pjb> The last element specified is repeated to the end of the vector.
<harovali> pjb: very insightful ! thanks !
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<Odin-> Given the details being talked about, I would be remiss not to point out that #| is also a default readtable thing which makes for a balanced comment.
<Odin-> ... which, if we're assuming #() is not a given, might just as well have been changed around. :)
<beach> katco: Why do you have mysterious blank lines within your functions?
<harovali> Odin-: now to see if slime can close that balanced brackets
<beach> katco: And I recommend using WITH-ACCESSORS rather than WITH-SLOTS. Slots are implementation details that should be used as little as possible. Accessors on the other hand are part of the protocol specification. Or they should be.
<katco> beach: readability. i do compress usually, but i found newlines between `let` blocks and the like helped me scan. i didn't think complete compressions was idiomatic; is it?
<beach> katco: If you have problems like that, it is better to divide the function into smaller independent functions without any blank lines in them.
<pjb> katco: it's not exactly idiomatic, but the presence of empty lines in a function is a smell: perhaps your function is too big!
<katco> beach: ah, i didn't realize that about slots/accessors. i thought slots were supposed to be used intra-class, and accessors inter-class
<beach> katco: There is no particular reason to have a newline after (COND.
<beach> You are wasting valuable vertical space.
<beach> The person reading your code can see fewer lines at once.
<katco> ok, duly noted re. newlines :) it sounds like the community dislikes them in all cases
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<beach> katco: I recommend you look at some code written by experienced people, like Norvig for instance.
<pjb> katco: you're correct about intra-class, but since methods are not attached to classes, but to generic functions, this is less meaningful than in other OO languages. Often, it will be easier to maintain the code if you always go thru accessors. Only in very special cases accessing the slots directly is indicated.
<katco> beach: i have. this is the first set of libs i've experimented with introducing newlines
<katco> pjb: that clarifies things a lot for me, thanks
<beach> katco: So in one case, you have a comment followed by a blank line. That's very strange.
<beach> katco: All that makes it look like your blank lines are completely arbitrary.
<katco> beach: can you provide a link?
<beach> To Norvig's code? I recommend you read PAIP.
<beach> minion: Please tell katco about PAIP.
<minion> katco: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<katco> beach: no to this comment
<beach> It is in your code line 265.
<katco> beach: i have read some of that book
<katco> beach: can you specify project? file?
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<beach> gir2cl main.lisp
<katco> ty!
<beach> katco: If you read Norvig's book, you will have noticed very few blank lines within functions.
<katco> ah yes, that does look a little out of place
<beach> You have a comment at the top level with only two semicolons.
<katco> i do like the newlines between the `cond` blocks because it helps me visually parse when a new block begins, but as you and pjb have said, maybe that's a nudge for functions for each of the blocks
<beach> clhs 2.4.4.2
<specbot> Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
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<pjb> katco: on the other hand, to each programmer his own style and readability tricks. The problem is with the Internet, when we exchange and communicate code. For this reason, I would advocate using emacs to present lisp sources to your own specifications. You could program emacs, so that it displays an interline (or perhaps even 1/2 interline) between each cond/case etc clauses, or between subsequent let forms, etc.
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<pjb> katco: so the source file wouldn't contain those interlines, but emacs would display them to you.
<katco> pjb: i hadn't considered that. not a bad idea. i feel it's a rehash of the whole tabs vs. spaces argument :)
<beach> katco: In cl-apache-arrow, arrow-low-level.lisp, you indentation of line 8 is wrong.
<beach> katco: Also, don't use nil for an empty list of parameters or superclasses. Use ().
<katco> i'm afraid that's from the autogeneration of code. i'd have to find a fix in `gir2cl`
<beach> So you asked us to review generated code?
<pjb> () = code empty list; '() = data empty list (in code); nil = false ; 'nil = symbol NIL (in code).
<pjb> :-)
<beach> pjb: Can you remember the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry that mentions that?
<katco> beach: those 2 files are the only generated code, and they are generated from the other project you've just reviewed.
<katco> beach: pjb: i've tried to capture your input so far here: https://github.com/kat-co/gir2cl/issues/1
<beach> What is the second file of generated code?
<pjb> beach: I don't think it comes from CLHS, it's just a convention.
<katco> both of the `*-low-level` files in `cl-apache-arrow`
<beach> pjb: No, it is definitely in there.
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<pjb> Merely: 1.4.1.4.4 NIL
<pjb> clhs nil
<beach> Yes, excellent! Thanks.
<pjb> I used my M-x grep-hyperspec emacs command :-)
<beach> What did you grep for? NIL?
<pjb> '()
<beach> Ah, good catch.
<pjb> of the four, it was the most specific I thought.
<beach> I agree.
<beach> OK, I need to go fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family.
<pjb> Bon appetit!
<katco> beach: tyvm for the review
<katco> i really appreciate it
<katco> and to you, pjb, for your comments
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<pfdietz> Xach: I'm interested in general popularity. I've been doing some testing improvement on various projects, and want to focus on the most used ones.
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<Xach> pfdietz: ok.
<Xach> pfdietz: i have restarted my log analyzer thingy so i'll get you that info sometime soon.
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<fe[nl]ix> pfdietz: what do you want to do ?
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<Josh_2> pjb: in this code you wrote the other day as an example https://termbin.com/x9ft why do you use (apply (function format).. ) instead of just (format ..)?
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<pjb> Josh_2: because we have a variable number of arguments, known only at run-time.
<pjb> Josh_2: coming from &rest format-arguments in f-format.
<pjb> Josh_2: the alternative would be to use ~?: (format *log-output* "~?" control-string format-arguments)
<pjb> Josh_2: perhaps it would be better to use ~?, but it's specific to format. In general, you would use apply in this situation.
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<jurov> pjb: and why not just (apply 'format ...) ?
<jurov> with format it is unlikely to happen, but I found out when function foo is recompiled, (function foo) sometimes uses old version
<jurov> so now i pass only symbol to apply
<pjb> In the case of functions from CL, it doesn't make a difference. Possibly, 'format would be slower at run-time, than #'format, but a good compiler could generate the same code for both, for functions from CL.
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<pjb> For functions NOT in CL, it can give different results.
<jackdaniel> jurov: #'foo refers to the symbol's function
<jackdaniel> which may change
<phoe> in case of CL functions it is always* safe to use #' since the functions in the CL package will never change
<jackdaniel> while 'foo refers to a symbol, which is later resolved to a function
<phoe> *unless you're tweaking the implementation itself, but you usually don't need to worry about that
<jackdaniel> you usually don't know whether it is a cl function though
<jackdaniel> people usually write (defpackage …) (in-package …), not (cl:defpackage …) (cl:in-package …)
<pjb> (defun foo () 'outer) (flet ((foo () 'inner)) (mapcar 'funcall (list 'foo #'foo))) #| --> (outer inner) |#
<jurov> i don't mean shadowing
<jurov> i meant (defun foo () 1) then (apply 'foo ) and (apply #'foo) diverge after foo is redefined
<jurov> say, (defun foo () 2)
<pjb> Note that in some case, I explicitely use 'foo instead of #'foo: for reader macros! (set-macro-character char 'my-reader-macro …) because if there's a problem with the reader macro, it will be easier to correct it (just by redefining the function) with the symbol.
<pjb> jurov: notably the divergence is hidden by the non-recompilation of the code where (function foo) appears.
<nirved> #'foo tends to be more optimized by compilers
<pjb> jurov: but if there's an update to foo, there may also be an update of the code depending on it, so this recompilation may be essential, and it may be more consistent to still call the old function while the old code is still being used!
<pjb> jurov: so I think that in general, #'foo is better than 'foo. You'd use 'foo only on specific special cases.
<pjb> (like my reader macro example).
<jurov> pjb, okay, only IMHO when you always use symbol the behavior is more tractable
<pjb> it's more "dynamic", since the symbol implies an indirection.
<jurov> but isn't it premature optimization? xD
<pfdietz> Xach: tyvm!
<pfdietz> (funcall (intern "FOO" "FOO-PACKAGE")) for those who want real forward references.
<jurov> O.o
<pfdietz> fe[nl]ix: I have a long term goal of firming up various public lisp packages, increasing their level of correctness by improving their testing.
<pfdietz> jurov: you see that idiom in (for example) asdf test ops, where you can't refer to a symbol in a test package before that package is loaded.
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<Odin-> CL doesn't give you enough rope to hang yourself.
<Odin-> It also builds the gallows.
<Odin-> Whether or not that's a bad thing is very much dependent on your perspective...
<jackdaniel> Odin-: I love that one /me steals the joke
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<p_l> personally, I think it includes a set of contractors ready to build you large automated execution apparatus or "throw-into-sun" device
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<gendl> Hi, with a Slime session attached to a remote Lisp through `M-x slime-connect`, is there a way to get hold of the stream which is reading from and printing to the *slime-repl ...* buffer (e.g. to `format` stuff to it)?
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<Xach> gendl: (defvar *my-stream* *standard-output*) and write to *my-stream*?
<zulu-inuoe> .. So, update on the hang on Catalina under slime. They built SBCL 2.0.0 and everything works great.
<zulu-inuoe> "Sometimes you gotta let a little magic into your life"
<Xach> good that it works
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<gendl> Xach: Duh. Why didn't I think of that...
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<karlosz> anyone have slime-presentation-streams working?
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<holycow> .
<jmercouris> cd ../
<holycow> jmercouris: there you are!
<holycow> i just dropped by to congratulate you on the latest next release
<holycow> just installed the db and using it. everything is really looking amazing.
<holycow> great job. i really appreciate your and your teams work
<jmercouris> holycow: thank you :-) that is very nice of you to say!
<holycow> i will be signing up to your patreon soonish. this seriously makes my life better.
<jmercouris> I'm glad to hear it, there is a lot more to come :-)
<holycow> awesome. i have started re-learing lisp once again, i will try to help as well.
<holycow> okay gotta go, just dropped by to say thanks. everyone here should check it out, its really improved.
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