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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
Mornin
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<refusenick>
For a C-to-Lisp compiler like Zeta-C or Vacietis, how little of the POSIX API could a Lisp OS get away with implementing while still being able to reuse drivers from a Unix derivative?
<beach>
Not sure what you mean. Translating C to Lisp does not need any OS drivers.
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<refusenick>
beach: Using the drivers in a Lisp OS would necessitate support for some aspects of Unix to call into them, no?
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<beach>
I am sure you are right. I just don't understand your question. It might help if you tell us what it is that you try to accomplish. Sorry, I am notorious for having a hard time understanding.
<beach>
But I am very interested in this question because I have plans for a LispOS.
<refusenick>
I know very little about low level development - I only took an introductory x86 assembly & architecture course.
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<refusenick>
Nevertheless, don't drivers provide some sort of API to use them to interface with hardware?
<Nilby>
It really depends which drivers you want to use. Storage drivers are fairly easy and have a small interface. Graphics card drivers on the other hand are extremely difficult.
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<refusenick>
Nilby: Graphics is the big issue at hand, I suppose - if there's to be any draw towards a Lisp OS (or any other OS) over Unix, it's the graphical aspect
<beach>
refusenick: Please. I am not questioning your intentions or your competence. I am trying to understand what you want to do.
<refusenick>
I know
<beach>
refusenick: Are you saying you want to reuse drivers in a LispOS by translating them from C using a C to Lisp compiler?
<refusenick>
yes
<beach>
Ah, good to know.
<beach>
I don't think that is possible at all, at least not with the way such compilers currently work.
<Nilby>
We have a LispOS currently, but one pain point is it doesn't use graphics hardware last time I looked, probably because of that issue.
<refusenick>
Pascal should have won. At least the type safety would've made it easier to compile drivers written in it to a better language.
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<refusenick>
(Well, Lisp should have won, but for most people, their choices were C or Pascal)
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<beach>
refusenick: A device driver needs direct access to RAM. You can't do that in Common Lisp, at least not portably, and not in C either. All such C programs exploit undefined behavior in the C standard.
<refusenick>
Since Unix operates on plain text streams, for example, I assume supporting POSIX architecture for the driver would have to include UTF-8 encoding and stdout/stdin/stderr streams at the least, which is already
<Nilby>
I think it is possible, but it would be quite a lot of work to get right. But probably less work than rewriting all hardware drivers.
<Nilby>
Of course you can access RAM in CL.
<refusenick>
which is already, in my eyes, irrelevant legacy cruft
<Nilby>
Just not standardly.
<beach>
Nilby: That is precisely what I said.
<Nilby>
Except we have a defacto standard FFI.
<beach>
In a LispOS?
<beach>
I think we are talking about very different kinds of LispOSes, so I'll be quiet.
<Nilby>
beach: Oh, sorry. I can barely think, type, read simultanously :|
<pjb>
beach: who says a device driver needs direct access to RAM?
<beach>
I am sure you are going to tell me that I was wrong, and I am listening.
<refusenick>
I'm asking this here because the Lisp community is, by far, the most advanced I've seen in writing an OS from first principles without copying Unix
<pjb>
beach: the principle is to be a controlled environment. I means that low level stuff is done by the lower level (eg. hardware). You can have a DEVICE that uses a (vector (unsigned-byte 8) *) as buffer, and the hardware will do the right thing with the lisp object.
<refusenick>
but I actually wanted to write it in something closer to a statically-typed Forth
<pjb>
beach: you may need a meeting point, but the hardware, instead of presenting devices as addresses and 8-bit registers, can as well represent them as lisp objects and fixnums.
<beach>
I suppose so, sure.
<refusenick>
pjb: That's how I assume any OS written from the ground up with a particular language's abstract machine in mind would do it: wrap it in the native idioms and do as the Romans do
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<pjb>
beach: one example was the NuBUS cards on Macintosh, that needed to be built with a ROM that gave a high level representation of their features. A precursor of EFI hardware layer (I hear you can write EFI drivers in forth).
<refusenick>
After all, Unix's Achille's heel is that plain text is limited in what it can represent because it lacks structure like sexprs
<pjb>
EFI hardware *abstraction* layer.
<pjb>
refusenick: it's not really that. It's that the structure (of the plain text) is meta data, outside of the plain text. It's encoded in the parser and serialisers used in different programs (and therefore that can be different).
<pjb>
refusenick: I say it's also an advantage, since that let you edit configuration files with a simple text editor.
<refusenick>
If one were to write a microkernel for a Lisp OS to cleanly present the hardware as Lisp objects to everything about it, how would the user be prevented from mucking about with it if all objects are mutable by default in Lisp?
<pjb>
refusenick: but the alternative is to store objects.
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<pjb>
refusenick: the only difference here is that lisp has a "standard" textual representation (printable readably sexps) for SOME lisp objects.
<no-defun-allowed>
You could have access control, and only allow code in certain contexts to modify objects.
<refusenick>
pjb: On that note, I'm particularly interested by Xerox's Lisp Machines, which stored everything as objects and provided first-class support for live structure editing
<pjb>
refusenick: but as long as you don't use an object database, sexps, xml, or unix table files are the same.
<pjb>
refusenick: but an object database is a bore, there are still problems (notably with identity, since normal databases make copies). So it's only good once you have a persitent memory and no file system, and no need for a database. Then your "files" are just lisp data structure in (persistent) memory.
<refusenick>
My dream - as a math person who ends up wasting time on computers to make them do math stuff faster - my dream is a tablet with a pen and a CAS with first-class structure editing and live look-up and advice support
<refusenick>
pjb: Why have files at all? I find the Smalltalk/BBN Lisp image concept intriguing
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<pjb>
Exactly.
<refusenick>
plus, there's lots of work on capabilities for image-based systems (see: EROS, CapROS)
<pjb>
However, again, the advantage of unix, the reason of its adoption, is that once you store something in a file, you can process it with any kind of tools. When you have objects, you can only send to the object, the messages that have been programmed into its class! So it can be very difficult to edit or manipulate it, when the set of methods provided is not comprehensive.
<pjb>
refusenick: no, there's not a lot of work on them, unfortunately. The only guy who worked on them has been hired by Microsoft several years ago so any further development have been dropped.
<refusenick>
Wasn't the idea of objects (the original one of Alan Kay, closer to the actor model) that you could send messages consisting of raw data to other objects without considering their implementation?
<pjb>
There are some documented archived on the Internet, and that's all.
<refusenick>
oh :()
<refusenick>
:(
<refusenick>
a la Erlang
<pjb>
System research has disappeared 30-40 years ago.
<refusenick>
That's how it appears to be
<pjb>
About the time when universities started to teach MS-Word…
<refusenick>
Hence my desire to reuse drivers and not reinvent the wheel
<pjb>
Yep, use Linux as HAL…
<refusenick>
no
<refusenick>
I'd like something I can seamlessly run on a RasPi or in the browser
<refusenick>
even Plan 9 would be better than what we have now, and Plan 9 is a far cry from what could be
<beach>
refusenick: Have you read my CLOSOS specification?
<pjb>
beach: check: http://www.alfamontreal.info/NuBus.pdf eg. page 30 there's a diagram showing an example of an Apple NuBus property list. There are attributes, and block of (driver) codes.
<beach>
pjb: Thanks.
<pjb>
beach: the only difference is that they were designed to be used in 680x0 assembler or in C, so the data structures are pointers and uint32. But they could be formatted as an immutable lisp heap.
<refusenick>
I wonder how far a unikernel with image based Lisp could be stripped down
<pjb>
refusenick: very far. Since CL implementations have FFI, you would only need the kernel, the CL implementation and its run-time shared libraries.
<pjb>
refusenick: that version of emacs didn't have module, so I had to add mount(1), but with an emacs module or with CL FFI, we can mount from the process itself.
<refusenick>
I wonder what it would take to support CL atop a smaller kernel like L4
<refusenick>
To be extra evil, maybe compile L4 into CL and ditch C entirely for even bootstrapping!
<pjb>
refusenick: basically all CL implementation use libc (glibc, etc). They don't do direct syscalls AFAIK.
<beach>
But they probably should.
<refusenick>
compile Musl into Lisp?
<refusenick>
I've gone drunk with power
<pjb>
Indeed, there's a movement even amongst C programmers, of using direct syscalls instead of libc…
<refusenick>
As if C could be more unsafe
<pjb>
Since some Linux syscalls give more power than POSIX libc…
<refusenick>
L4 has only 7 syscalls
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<refusenick>
I wonder if there's a POSIX-compliant libc which can run atop it.
<refusenick>
Maybe that could compiled into Lisp
<pjb>
refusenick: you have the sources, have fun!
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<LdBeth>
Hello
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<LdBeth>
l4 is basically a “modern” OS influenced by UNIX
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<p_l>
LdBeth: there's nothing UNIX in L4
<ebrasca>
p_l: Are you sure?
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<p_l>
ebrasca: I am
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<p_l>
you can build an UNIX system on top of it, but by itself it's closer to core layer of Spring, which was UNIXish even in philosophy, but in a mirror-verse way
<p_l>
L4 supports switching processes and passing messages between them. That's about it, everything else is custom
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<ebrasca>
How to test this L4?
<ebrasca>
Is it better than GNU/Hurd?
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<p_l>
L4 was for a time proposed as mach replacement in Hurd
<p_l>
L4 by itself is very, very tiny kernel
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<p_l>
so it's not a comparison
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<p_l>
usually for L4 implementations there's a bunch of code that makes it more usable (and it was common to use L4/Linux to provide device drivers etc.)
<ebrasca>
How to test it?
<p_l>
you'd need to grab some of the more complete systems using it
<p_l>
seL4 has a bunch of userland to make usable demo, so does Fiasco
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<Shinmera>
L4 is also off topic.
<Cymew>
But it's very, very tiny. :)
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<no-defun-allowed>
By mass, it is still 100% off topic.
<Cymew>
Indeed.
<Cymew>
Incidentially, I don't think I've seen much conversation about what kind of kernel architechture to aim for among the lisp development done in kernel space.
<no-defun-allowed>
The CLOSOS paper suggests that a kernel is unnecessary, and that is what I believe.
<Cymew>
In theory you don't need one big flat memory space for kernel and user space, right?
<jackdaniel>
Cymew: beach discussed it in his lispos paper - there is no need for a separate kernel from applications. you have no direct pointer arithmetic and memory separation is just an unnecessary baggage
<Cymew>
Look at that. I had missed that paper.
<no-defun-allowed>
In a language where you cannot manipulate memory, you should not need to hide memory from client code through process boundaries.
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<jackdaniel>
(so applications are more run as functions, not as separate processes with their own address space)
<Cymew>
It sounds like it could cause some interesting bugs, though.
<Cymew>
I can see some benefit by separating processes in different spaces to protect them from accidents.
<Cymew>
But, I guess beach have thought about that.
<no-defun-allowed>
If the compiler generates safe code, the resulting operating system should be safe.
<beach>
Cymew: If those accidents are program defects, then there is no protection possible against those.
<no-defun-allowed>
Is rowhammer still a problem?
<Shinmera>
if you don't have ECC memory, yes
<Cymew>
beach: I guess that's true to some extent. I need to read that paper I think.
<Cymew>
Is there a compiled version online? My google fu only leads me to the tex sources.
<no-defun-allowed>
I think only hardware bugs would be problematic for a CLOSOS with a bug-free compiler and runtime.
<aeth>
on swearwords; grep -r fuck ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software
<aeth>
I get one result
<aeth>
quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iterate-20180228-git/doc/tex/iterate-manual.tex:% somehow, LaTex fucks with things so that the plain Tex \obeyspaces
<jackdaniel>
I'm sure commit messages will have more funcitons ,)
<jackdaniel>
funciton: keyboard generalization over a function. :)
<pfdietz>
Ancient unix has a file deletion program named dsw. The name is reported to have stood for "delete swear words".
<aeth>
A LaTeX comment! They thought they could hide a "fucks" in a LaTeX comment! Who reads the documentation documentation?
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<jackdaniel>
https://scsh.net/docu/html/man.html (speaking of documentation) -- I've heard that this poor joke made a lot of trouble to the author
<Xach>
The comments in dpans3 are really interesting to me. It includes things that were edited out or rewritten, and commentary on edits and references to other discussions.
<Xach>
No cusses though that I recall
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<slyrus>
pfdietz: yes, funciton is in CLEM, but only in ChangeLog and TODO.
<slyrus>
OT but am I the only one who read Btrfs as Bit-rot File System?
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<Xach>
yes. it's clearly the BetTeR File System.
<slyrus>
Perhaps one day...
<Odin->
I usually think 'butter fs', for some reason.
<_death>
bitterfs
<Odin->
That would appear to be a fairly accurate description.
<slyrus>
heh
* Odin-
still isn't quite sure why it isn't NIHfs.
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<pfdietz>
Pull request for chanl created, to fix the compare-and-swap problem.
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<gendl>
pfdietz: pjb: Thanks for finding that "funciton" in gendl. It turns out this was in a file from the Franz eli (Franz emacs-lisp interface) directory (fi-indent.el), which directory wasn't even supposed to be in gendl in the first place. Scrubbed now. It's just in a docstring and not at all resembling your mystery minibuffer message. Koikidink that this one was in emacs-lisp code, though..
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<pfdietz>
(patches English to allow that word, fixing all the doc bugs at once)
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<pnp>
Hi all. I did (intern "new-symbol") in the cl-user package. Now how is possible to "delete" / "remove" the name of this symbol from the package? Thanks in advance