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<markasoftware>
is there any rhyme or reason to how much the compiler actually does at compile time? SBCL fails on a file whose only contenst are (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) because it thinks the foo package doe.sn't exist, but clisp works just fine
<markasoftware>
this behavior seems quite out of line on SBCL's part...
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<White_Flame>
try defpackage instead
<White_Flame>
and it's not the compiler, it's the reader
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<White_Flame>
well, when compiling, the MAKE-PACKAGE isnt' actually executed until runtime, but IN-PACKAGE needs to find the package name at read-time for further symbols to be interned there
<markasoftware>
White_Flame: I thought in-package was evaluated during normal evaluation time
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<White_Flame>
the difference between foo:func and bar:func need to come from the reader
<markasoftware>
hence why (progn (in-package :other-package) 'foo) returns foo from the original package
<White_Flame>
PROGN at toplevel leaves its contents at toplevel as well
<White_Flame>
and if other-package imports foo from the original package, then you'd see that behavior too
<markasoftware>
you can type this in yourself. It will return cl-user::foo
<White_Flame>
ok yeah, it does delay it until after the progn form
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<White_Flame>
eg, 'x (progn (in-package :foo) 'x) 'x, the first and 2nd will be in CL-USER, the 3rd will be in FOO
<White_Flame>
because the reader reads the entire PROGN form first, before any of its subforms can be evaluated at any stage
<markasoftware>
Which means that in-package only does anything during the evaluation phase of the 2nd statement, before the read of the 3rd statement?
<White_Flame>
yep. The reader reads 1 toplevel form at a time, so that read-level changes can happen at toplevel between forms
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<White_Flame>
and an entire form is read before anything else can happen to it (well, excepting #.)
<White_Flame>
(and any other reader macro side effects)
<markasoftware>
Which brings me back to my original question: Why does a file containing only the two top-level forms (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) fail to compile in SBCL?
<White_Flame>
because in-package's compile-time happens before make-package's run-time
<markasoftware>
why in the world does it check whether the package exists at compile time?
<White_Flame>
so that it can change the reader
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<White_Flame>
remember, you're not loading the file, you're only compiling it
<markasoftware>
ah i see
<White_Flame>
so no toplevel forms are executing their runtime yet
<White_Flame>
if you load the file, I suspect it would work
<markasoftware>
So how does clisp not break on this?
<markasoftware>
is it just slightyl smarter and understands the make-package?
<White_Flame>
no clue, maybe it runs make-package at compile-time as well? yeah, something like that
<markasoftware>
How does defpackage help here? Does SBCL understand defpackage at compile time?
<White_Flame>
there's also a reason that most .asd defs have a separate package.lisp to set things up before any file that uses the package is even touched
<White_Flame>
defpackage is a macro
<White_Flame>
and the spec demands its effect at compile-time as well
<White_Flame>
defpackage is also the idiomatic way of defining packages, unless you're doing purely runtime constructs
<markasoftware>
and it expands into an (eval-when) ... whaaa
<boeg>
I'm currently using net.didierverna.clon and simply have it installed via quicklisp and load it with `:depends-on` in my asd system. Currently I know I can use the "use" function in for example my package definition or use-package in a lisp file to use clon, but I'd rather it with available under the nickname "clon". Is that possible somehow?
<White_Flame>
lets you define new nicknames as well
<White_Flame>
or use package local nicknames
<White_Flame>
which is the more modern approach
<boeg>
White_Flame: "or use package local nicknames" - can you be more specific? I don't see it in the manual?
<White_Flame>
it's a newer feature, not part of the spec
<prumnopytis>
Isn't nickname a thing?
<boeg>
ah
<prumnopytis>
Tfw repeating someone two lines above me
<White_Flame>
prumnopytis: yes, but standard nicknames are in the global package space
<boeg>
it seems net.didierverna.clon has a nickname. If it do `(package-nicknames (find-package 'net.didierverna.clon))` I get `("CLON")`. How do I use it?
<prumnopytis>
Hmm
<White_Flame>
package local nicknames are only visible within a package that defined one
<White_Flame>
prumnopytis: so package1 can have the PLN utils: refer to foo-utils:, and package2 can have its PLN utils: refer to bar-utils:
<boeg>
I think thought I remembered last I tried that it didnt work so I ended up using the full name
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<boeg>
but seems to work now
<boeg>
White_Flame: thanks
<White_Flame>
np
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<boeg>
White_Flame: Ah, sorry, it doesn't work, I had had it manually defined in the current system, but when starting with an empty system, no, the nickname "clon" is not available
<boeg>
but "net.didierverna.clon" is
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<White_Flame>
looking at the clon code, there's a (nickname-package) call which installs the CLON nicknam
<White_Flame>
its defpackage doesn't include it
<boeg>
yeah, (package-nicknames (find-package 'net.didierverna.clon))` does return `("CLON")`. But I can't use it?
<White_Flame>
but if your own package does (defpackage ... (:local-nicknames (clon net.didierverna.clon))) then you don't have to change clon's state itself
<White_Flame>
boeg: no idea what you're seeing. There might be a difference between what your code in files see at load time, vs what you see on the repl
<White_Flame>
because the repl will run later after everything is set up
<boeg>
well, what I mean is, how do I make the nickname available? If you understand. The full name is available but the nickname isn't, so I guess I have to tell asdf to include the nickname?
<boeg>
or sbcl
<White_Flame>
any use of clon: after the nickname is there should work
<White_Flame>
are you saying that package-nicknames on the repl shows clon, but clon: doesn't work at that same repl?
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<boeg>
Admittedly not, I did the package-nicknames in the repl, but am trying to use clon in a file I load into the repl
<boeg>
maybe thats a problem
<White_Flame>
right, that load is apparently happening before the clon nickname is installed
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<White_Flame>
which is a runtime effect, not part of clon's defpackage
<White_Flame>
I'd suggest using the package local nickname
<White_Flame>
clon's runtime installation of a nickname is a hack to get around potential nickname collisions
<White_Flame>
before PLNs became more available
<boeg>
alright
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<boeg>
when you say "i'd suggest using the package local nickname" what exactly do you mean? It sounds like you are saying to use "clon:" but as we have established, it doesn't work
<White_Flame>
"but if your own package does (defpackage ... (:local-nicknames (clon net.didierverna.clon))) then you don't have to change clon's state itself"
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<boeg>
ah, sorry
<boeg>
missed that
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<White_Flame>
if your project is (defpackage :foo ...), and has a PLN, then when you're (in-package :foo), clon: should work even without clon's nickname installed
<White_Flame>
*without clon's global nickname installed
<boeg>
yes, it works, :local-nicknames was exactly what I was after, thank you very much!
<White_Flame>
cool
<markasoftware>
White_Flame: by putting my package definition in a different file than the (in-package) statement, asdf evaluates the packages.lisp file before any of my files that do in-package, which is why I get no error?
<White_Flame>
correct. The files are compiled & loaded, meaning the toplevel effects will occur before the next file is read
<White_Flame>
*toplevel runtime effects
<White_Flame>
so even make-package should work if you put it in a file before the in-package
<White_Flame>
(and have your file dependency ordering correct)
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<markasoftware>
Why does a file with (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) (export 'bar) evaluate properly in clisp? My understanding is that, since the package foo does not `use` common-lisp, the shadow function should not be defined.
<markasoftware>
sbcl fails, as I expect it to.
<markasoftware>
s/shadow/export
<markasoftware>
huh, (package-use-list) on my new package shows that it *does*, in fact, use common-lisp, even though i never told it to
<markasoftware>
How can I stop that and explicitly state that my package should not use any package?
<markasoftware>
ahhhh :use has an implementation specific default
<markasoftware>
whyyyyy would that be the spec
<markasoftware>
i have wasted well over an hour today because of that
<markasoftware>
but i guess it led me around to learning about some other things that I didn't know in the debugging process
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
markasoftware: The list of default packages that are used is implementation specific
<rnmhdn>
so that it would calculate complex expression only once
<no-defun-allowed>
If that expression doesn't produce side effects and isn't too complicated, a compiler could do that.
<no-defun-allowed>
But you probably should rewrite it as (* 2 <complex expression>) yourself.
<rnmhdn>
is there a difference between functional and procedural languages in handling such optimizations?
<no-defun-allowed>
Hm, for "pure" functional languages and languages with lazy evaluation, that kind of optimisation would be easier to apply.
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<rnmhdn>
what procedural languages have lazy evaluation?
<no-defun-allowed>
Probably none, since side effects and lazy evaluation don't mix well.
<rnmhdn>
what common functional languages don't have lazy-evaluation?
<no-defun-allowed>
All except Haskell.
<prumnopytis>
You can make things like laziness / shunt work appropriately into compile time with macros and things in lisp. In lisp you would use lisp's disassembling to look at how fast it is, I guess, rather than translate it into clang's intermediary language and write opt passes on that. I like lisp more.
<rnmhdn>
is haskell pure?
<no-defun-allowed>
(Well, maybe a few others do have lazy evaluation, but I would say it is less common than eager evaluation.)
<no-defun-allowed>
I think so, but it has monad things to do impure stuff. You probably should ask #haskell.
<rnmhdn>
yeah
<rnmhdn>
thank you so much
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<beach>
rnmhdn: Languages don't optimize. Implementations do. Common Lisp has many different implementations, and each one has its own compiler that optimizes differently.
<rnmhdn>
I know
<beach>
OK.
<rnmhdn>
by language I mean the expected value of the implementations :D
<rnmhdn>
lol
<rnmhdn>
so for example I'd say it's very highly unlikely that you find a python implementation that does that
<rnmhdn>
but it seems like it's likely that a haskell implementation does it
<beach>
Common Lisp has many more implementations than Python does, though, so there is greater variation in the level of optimization.
<beach>
From simple interpreters to highly optimizing compilers.
<rnmhdn>
do you know any CL implementation that does this?
<beach>
I haven't looked, but I would think SBCL does.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think it does that.
<beach>
Oh, OK
<ggole>
Value numbering would have much the same effect, I think
<no-defun-allowed>
You could, barring side effects (and modifications to the CL package, for +), write a compiler macro as a kind of optimisation pass, but I still think you should prefer to write out (* 2 <that complex expression>) instead.
<prumnopytis>
Sounds like something from a computer algebra system in this case
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<MichaelRaskin>
Like Maxima… (which is written in Common Lisp, and can be interfaced with easily)
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<pjb>
markasoftware: I already told you to use defpackage yesterday!
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<pjb>
rnmhdn: In most cases (complex-expression) has side effects, so it cannot and must not be eliminated.
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<jmercouris>
guten morgen everyone!
<fe[nl]ix>
Xach: talk to Doug about offline code indexing
<fe[nl]ix>
although you might not like the solution the we use
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<Xach>
fe[nl]ix: ok!
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<sahara3>
hola buenos dias!!
<je4i>
Guten Tag!
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<ckonstanski>
Is CLSQL still maintained? It looks like quicklisp hasn't seen an update since 2016. If not, is there another solution for connecting to postgresql that is under active development?
<p_l>
ckonstanski: postgresql has good support in form of Postmodern library
<Xach>
ckonstanski: postmodern is really good for postgres.
<ckonstanski>
My immediate concern is that postgresql-12 wants to use SHA256 instead of MD5 for password encryption and CLSQL doesn't support it. The bigger picture is bitrot in general. Is postmodern an active project?
<Xach>
ckonstanski: postmodern is active.
<ckonstanski>
Neat!
<Xach>
I don't know if it supports the new password scheme but it could be added
<ckonstanski>
That's the crucial ingredient. Someone to answer feature requests. I'll try it.
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<Xach>
I am thinking of publishing my standalone SHA1/256/512 code as a library. ironclad does it, but it is part of a large suite of tools and it's hard to separate out smaller parts.
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<sindan>
Is there any reason for the latest release of SBCL jumping straight to 2.0 from the very boring and normal-looking progression for years of version numbers up to 1.5.9?
<Xach>
sindan: 20th anniversary
<sindan>
ohh :)
<sindan>
well then, happy anniversary
<Xach>
very happy!
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<roliacole>
hi
<roliacole>
how can i install clisp,sbcl from gnuemacs
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<eeeeeta>
how secure is ironclad?
<roliacole>
ironclad is fine
<eeeeeta>
awesome-cl says it's not really that secure at all, but I'm wondering whether anyone has more information
<eeeeeta>
like, has it ever been audited or whatever
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<MichaelRaskin>
I do not think think Ironclad is constant-time
<roliacole>
what's wrong with using openssl ?
<roliacole>
just use openssl
<MichaelRaskin>
Heartbleed is very much related to OpenSSL being written in a memory unsafe language
<MichaelRaskin>
But there is CL+SSL library that does FFI to OpenSSL
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<roliacole>
MichaelRaskin: i have a doubt
<roliacole>
i am getting started using clisp , how do i execute clisp file.cl inside emacs easily
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<_death>
did you install quicklisp?
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<anddam>
howdy
<flip214>
Xach: promoting "small" projects leads to NPM hell
<beach>
Hello anddam.
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<roliacole>
_death: no
<roliacole>
I'd like to add a shortcut to clisp file command using emacs
<_death>
roliacole: you can start by installing quicklisp, and using it to install slime (via quicklisp-slime-helper).. then you can have a read-eval-print loop in slime
<_death>
roliacole: to load a file, you could (load "/path/to/file.cl") .. that doesn't require slime or quicklisp, and I suppose you could run clisp in an emacs shell buffer, but you should check out slime
<roliacole>
repl gives the wrong output , for example format (+ 3 4 ) is right but (+3 4 ) is the wrong program.
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<beach>
Am I the only one who doesn't understand what roliacole's problem is?
<roliacole>
ok how do i install quicklisp
<_death>
roliacole: in Lisp "+3" is a valid symbol name
<beach>
roliacole: Are you saying that you would like for (+3 4) to return 7?
<_death>
roliacole: you can follow the instructions on the site
<roliacole>
i don't know much lisp at this point as you see i have difficulty setting up lisp
<roliacole>
which site exactly
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<_death>
roliacole: do you know how to search the internet
<roliacole>
yes
<_death>
roliacole: that skill could come in handy, you should practice it
<beach>
roliacole: What was your problem with (+3 4)?
<beach>
roliacole: Like, where did you see it?
<roliacole>
that shouldn't print
<beach>
And are you saying that it did anyway?
<roliacole>
i don't want it to print, as in actual programs we don't use that , as it's output is null
* beach
is completely lost.
<beach>
roliacole: I suspect you are confused.
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<beach>
roliacole: No, (+3 4) is not a valid form, unless you happen to have an operator named +3.
<beach>
So I am wondering where you saw it.
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<p_l>
eeeeeta: Ironclad AFAIK implements the algorithm well, but a) it has limited set of algorithms b) it's not proofed against attacks, so bad for on-line use (no constant time operations, for example)
<pnp>
roliacole, the space is used to split tokens
<boeg>
Can anyone recommend some articles/books about handler errors/conditions in common lisp? I personally like "just" returning values, and I've the beyond exceptions in practical common lisp, but I still feel like I need a better idea of when to do what and how to and so on, so I was just thinking there might be a great article or chapter of a book or something on this somewhere
<boeg>
amnesia_: Thanks, I did actually also read that earlier today
<roliacole>
it is far better than using portacle as i learnt something beach
<boeg>
I felt like it explained how to do things, but not as much like a pattern or approach to use
<boeg>
like should I use return values 80% of the times and conditions 20% or something like that. Like conditions only when it really makes sense because it needs something else return values can't
<amnesia_>
boeg: ok
<amnesia_>
the ansi common lisp explain this more deeply
<_death>
boeg: you can read Pitman's papers, e.g. "Exceptional Situations in Lisp" or "Condition Handling in the Lisp Language Family".. http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/index.html
<boeg>
amnesia_: I'll check that out, haven't read it yet
<roliacole>
beach: _death but we don't write code inside repl?
<amnesia_>
so, whats the problem ?
<roliacole>
we write code in a file
<amnesia_>
are you need to run the code ?
<roliacole>
of course
<roliacole>
if repl i can't "save " the code
<roliacole>
so naturally repl is useless
<amnesia_>
so do sbcl --script /path/to/file.lisp
<_death>
you can visit a (possibly new) lisp file in emacs, or use the slime scratch buffer, and evaluate forms using C-M-x.. you can load the file using C-c C-l RET
<roliacole>
i know amnesia_ but i can't do that every time it is tiresome
<amnesia_>
well, you can do sbcl and * (load "path/to/file.lisp")
<amnesia_>
and you have the repl
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<_death>
you can compile and load a file using C-c C-k, etc. for more information you can check out the slime manual
<_death>
of course you don't know.. did you expect to, in the few moments you spent on it?
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<roliacole>
does it also have autocompletion like python's notebooks
<jackdaniel>
roliacole: even better, there is cl-jupyter, so you may use it with notebooks yourself
<roliacole>
there is no way it like rival those notebooks - they are the most superior
<Xach>
troliacole
* _death
goes to read something
<roliacole>
hey xach
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<roliacole>
i am not troll
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<Xach>
roliacole: you do a good impersonation of one though.
<roliacole>
but repl of slime doesn't have "cells" like notebooks
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<Xach>
the symptoms are declaring things that you have no understanding of or experience with bad, inferior, etc.
<Xach>
now, these things may be bad, inferior, useless, etc. but the key factor is the clue-free declaration of such
<eeeeeta>
<roliacole> so naturally repl is useless
* eeeeeta
hands roliacole a toolkit containing copy, paste, and sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die
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<roliacole>
Xach: i am upset lisp is being used nowhere
<roliacole>
how many proper lisp users like CL,scheme are there in the world?
<jackdaniel>
roliacole: please move it to #lispcafe (or nowhere), it is offtopic on this channel
<roliacole>
Xach: join me on #lispcafe
<amnesia_>
the most, i guess
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<roliacole>
Xach: sbcl CL or gambit/stalin scheme, which is more optimized
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<jackdaniel>
roliacole: still offtopic, please move to the abovementioned place
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<no-defun-allowed>
"how many proper lisp users like CL,scheme are there in the world?" Probably at least two.
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<jackdaniel>
ditto
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<no-defun-allowed>
As for upper bounds, probably no more than seven billion-ish unless aliens are using Lisp, and of course they would.
<no-defun-allowed>
But really, I'm not sure and that sounds hard to estimate.
<eeeeeta>
jeez, you people, don't you know about the flying sphere with lisp aliens inside
<eeeeeta>
as well as their entire fleet of lisp-powered alien ships >_<
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<eeeeeta>
on a serious note, ITA Software is a pretty well-known CL user
<eeeeeta>
there are more testimonials about the place on lispworks or lisp-lang if you look
<no-defun-allowed>
I would say that there's about 1% and 10% the users as there are of Python (ignoring that one can be a Python and a Lisp hacker for a short period of time before one becomes a weenie), so 80 to 800 thousand-ish.
<jackdaniel>
I mean it, please guys move this popoularity contest to #lispcafe, it is neither technical nor really related to the programming language itself
<jackdaniel>
roliacole did listen to my request, so I see no reason to prolong it here
<eeeeeta>
oh sorry jackdaniel, my bad
* eeeeeta
shuts up
<no-defun-allowed>
Right then. Sorry.
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<jackdaniel>
thank you
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<pjb>
roliacole: CL implementations provide you with a REPL, which is a read eval PRINT loop, which is why when you type (+ 3 7), it prints the result 10.
<roliacole>
i know
<pjb>
roliacole: if you don't want it to print, then you must write your own REL: (defun rel () (loop (princ "> ") (finish-output) (eval (read)))) (rel)
<pjb>
roliacole: you didn't seem to know, since you complained earlier that it printed…
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<roliacole>
i am learning emacs config+melpa
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<roliacole>
i have a simple doubt if you don't mind
<roliacole>
how do i count how many characters screen wide is my window
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<roliacole>
because upon maximize the lines fill only half the screen i wish to make the lines column bigger to fill the complete window
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