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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<gendl>
top o' the mornin beach
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<beach>
Early bird ...
<gendl>
i'm a late cat. midnight here. two hours past my bedtime. When I see beach's "good morning" it's always a red flag that i've blown my bedtime. :|
<gendl>
on that note goodnight to me and have a productive & enjoyable day to you..
<beach>
'night gendl.
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<shangul>
Any suggestion for a interface to gnuplot?
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<shangul>
an*
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<shangul>
Where can I find docs for CLNUPlot?
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<phoe>
morning
<beach>
Hello phoe.
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<elderK>
Moin all :)
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<phoe>
Hey beach!
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<beach>
Hello elderK.
<elderK>
How are you doing today, beach?
<beach>
Me? Quite well thank you. I think I just worked out how to process return values in HIR code.
<beach>
What about yourself?
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<elderK>
Nice :) What is HIR?
<elderK>
I'm doing good, thank you for asking. Christmas leave :)
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<beach>
High-level Intermediate Representation, used by Cleavir.
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<elderK>
Odd question but how do you pronounce "Cleavir?" Like Cleave-eer? Or Clever?
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<elderK>
Or Cleaver? :D Cleaving things away, making the code efficient!
<beach>
Cleaver.
<elderK>
Thank you :)
<beach>
Goes well with SICL (pronounced sickle).
<elderK>
Aye, it does.
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<ebrasca>
Hi
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<phoe>
hey
<Shinmera>
Phew, I didn't break anything this time
<phoe>
Shinmera: what did you try brekaing
<phoe>
breaking*
<Shinmera>
I don't think I specifically try to break anything, my projects just usually end up that way.
<heisig>
Same here. It seems I didn't even screw up my projects' dependencies this time.
<phoe>
I slowly begin to enjoy watching CCL catch fire and burn in all the different ways that I end up making it do so
<shangul>
Shinmera, It is always like this
<shangul>
Does CL to machine code compiler exist?
<Shinmera>
most implementations compile to native code.
<shangul>
"native"?
<shangul>
native relating to that machine?
<Shinmera>
yes
<shangul>
well, then why we have big programs(code+compiler+debugger+...) rather than small executables?
<Shinmera>
idunno, why do we have an operating system and glibc and all that?
<heisig>
shangul: You can even view the generated machine code, just try (cl:disassemble #'car).
<heisig>
But Lisp programs are so big because they include the entire Lisp runtime, including the compiler.
<shangul>
I here, am comparing this to C/C++ in my mind. You can run a C code(just C and standard libraries) everywhere. with or without OS and with any OS. well some say that C is just portable assembly
<Shinmera>
eh?
<Shinmera>
try running a standard c program without an os
<Shinmera>
most programs depend on a runtime, c and lisp are no different there.
<shangul>
I suppose it is possible but I don't know how much hard it is.
<Shinmera>
c just has the advantage that the runtime is in the os already
<Shinmera>
lisp does not have that luxury.
<shangul>
C is used to develop an OS
<Shinmera>
so what
<phoe>
so is Lisp, see mezzano
<shangul>
Shinmera, Does C have a runtime like you said when somebody is using it to code an OS?
<Shinmera>
no, but I said a /standard/ C program
<shka__>
/standard/ C can't even load libs
<Shinmera>
most C programs depend on the OS and other libraries to perform a variety of tasks. That's the runtime.
<shka__>
basicly whole unix or windows OS is a huge C runtime
<Shinmera>
The executables are only small because the runtime /is/ the os.
<Shinmera>
so it's separate from the executable
<shka__>
exactly
<shangul>
okay I understood this
<Shinmera>
if you bundle linux + your C program it'll be pretty big too.
<heisig>
shangul: Imagine a Lisp program as a C program that also includes GDB, GCC, a garbage collector and a bunch of popular libraries.
<shangul>
Now one may ask why CL's runtime is not an OS
<shka__>
well, it can be
<phoe>
again, see mezzano
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<Shinmera>
and genera
<Shinmera>
anyway, most of the time it is not, because we like to make use of the effort others have made
<phoe>
but mostly because that space is already occupied - most people run Linux/Windows/macOS/BSDs so there's no more space left for another OS
<shka__>
but there is no comercial need for such systems so they are not prelevent
<Shinmera>
so, we like an OS that can run other software than lisp.
<shangul>
I see your point now
<shangul>
Java is like CL, too.
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<shka__>
Sun was actually working at some point on java OS AFAIK
<Shinmera>
there was a bytecode chip, even.
<shka__>
oh!
<shangul>
Well we had a Java platform on J2ME phones
<shka__>
cute hardware, i like that
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<shka__>
anyway, there is this weird assumption that C is the only language to write OS
<shka__>
there is nothing magical about C
<shka__>
it is just very widespread
<shka__>
but if history would took different turn, it is possible that pascal or something different would be a dominant language
<shangul>
Will my programs run faster if I run the compiled version of them
<shangul>
?
<shka__>
… i guess
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<shka__>
i mean, usually interpreters execute code slower then CPU
<shangul>
CL is an exception, isn't it?
<shka__>
not really
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<shangul>
implementions compile the code as you type them or load them
<shka__>
yeah, but this is not interpretation
<shka__>
this is compilation
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<shangul>
an unusual one
<shka__>
currently yes, but progressivly less so
<shka__>
it seems that the rest of the world is catching up
<shka__>
see julia for instance
<shka__>
compiled dynamic languages slowly become the thing again
<shka__>
which brings joy to my heart :-)
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<pfdietz>
At least garbage collection is mainstream now.
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<pfdietz>
the borderline between compilation and interpretation has become blurred in a dynamic world. Interpreters have JIT compilers, and compiled code can be dynamically interpreted (DynamoRIO and descendants).
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<drdo>
There's no excuse for having a slow interpreter for serious production use
<p_l>
drdo: python suggests otherwise
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<drdo>
p_l: That's the prime example
<drdo>
I don't understand it
<drdo>
There's so many people behind it and the official implementation is still this incredibly slow interpreter
<p_l>
there are two things in action
<p_l>
a) slow interpreter is permissible when you're majorly spending time *outside* of interpreted code
<p_l>
b) Python got ridiculous amounts of work into coming batteries-included that paid off by the time it hit 2.0
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<drdo>
p_l: Sure, that might make sense when it was developing
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<drdo>
But at this point with so much effort behind it it's amazing that they haven't fixed that
<p_l>
drdo: it's not exactly fixable and "it's good enough"
<drdo>
lisp has really quite fast implementations with a handful of people working on it
<splittist>
This would seem to indicate that speeding an interpreter would be premature optimization.
<drdo>
p_l: Why is it not fixable?
<heisig>
You cannot fix a broken (or worse, mostly absent) language specification once you have many users. Python will never be fast.
<heisig>
You could make another language that is somewhat similar to Python and much faster. But Python is a compiler writer's nightmare.
<heisig>
As in, the array reference operator could redefine itself on each call.
<heisig>
And here I dream again of re-releasing Common Lisp as Python 4...
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<shka__>
honestly, python is just not a good language
<jackdaniel>
that depends on criteria taken
<p_l>
python doesn't have a spec and is defined by behaviour of PyEvalFrameEx
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<jackdaniel>
i.e it is a good language to capture interest of people getting into programming
<jackdaniel>
not only that, people using python usually are happy while using it
<Xach>
It does not always have to be friendly to compilers to become faster. Sometimes it only takes multiple multibillion-dollar companies investing millions in making it faster.
<jackdaniel>
(at least some I know)
<pjb>
Well, the various python languages have reference documentation, and there are the PEPs.
<pjb>
It also has several diffrent implementations, including cypthon and pypy.
<pjb>
But indeed, that doesn't make it a good language.
<shka__>
jackdaniel: i personally don't know any person using more then just a python and really liking it better
<pjb>
Notably, if you need to write your code in C, to make anything run in python, what's the point?
<jackdaniel>
of course if anyone will ask me what I think about whitespace-based scope delimiters I will just laugh histerically ,)
<shka__>
but that's beside the point
<shka__>
and does not belong to #lisp
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<pfdietz>
Python uses camel case and OCaml uses snake case. I am bemused.
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<pfdietz>
This is #lisp, so I will stick with kebab case.
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<pjb>
And for the others who'd wonder, strings are vectors of characters: (typep (let ((data '(#\a #\b #\c))) (make-array (list (length data)) :element-type 'character :initial-contents data)) 'string) #| --> t |#
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<reepca>
is there a standard function for taking a subsequence of a vector of (unsigned-byte 8) and interpreting it as a big-endian number to produce an unsigned integer?
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<reepca>
I know I could use repeated multiplication and addition to do it myself, but I feel like there's almost certaianly a more efficient way
<reepca>
certainly*
<pjb>
reepca: no.
<pjb>
There's no such function in the standard.
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<pjb>
reepca: you can use dpb instead of multiplications and additions. But then, a good compiler should generate the same code in both cases. But then, perhaps our compilers are not good enough.
<equwal>
How can I get the DOCUMENTATION for a condition?
<equwal>
(probably something like (documentation 'my-condition 'some-identifier))
<Bike>
'type
<Bike>
for 'some-identifier
<Bike>
oh, that's not actually defined
<Bike>
whatever, it'll probably work anyway
<Bike>
that's a silly oversight in the spec
<equwal>
It works on SBCL, which is all that matters for now.
<pjb>
There's no standard symbol defined to fetch the documentation of condition. You may try 't
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<Bike>
actually i guess define-condition has to define a type name, so it works out
<equwal>
't doesn't work, but type did
<pjb>
equwal: in sbcl, conditions are standard-class IIRC.
<phoe>
nope
<phoe>
not in SBCL; they are in CCL, ECL, ABCL
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<equwal>
On a related note, is there a way to get information about the slots?
<equwal>
e.g. a list of them, so I can map them?
<Bike>
you need the metaobject protocol for that
<Bike>
(and an implementation in which condition types are also classes and work with mop, which is probably all of them)
<Bike>
in sbcl it would be (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class 'whatever))
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<equwal>
Thanks a lot for the help.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is it possible to have cl-unification substitute in the values of other variables in the value for find-variable-value? I realise this is impossible for bindings like ?x -> ?x, but I don't think my environments will have any circularity.
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<reepca>
is there any support in the standard for reading utf8-encoded strings (that is, converting bytes to strings)? Of course, there's code-char, but I don't think that would work very easily for a variable-width encoding like utf8...
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<Xach>
reepca: not in the standard.
<Xach>
reepca: i use trivial-utf-8 for conversion. sometimes i don't even use the library, i just copy its (few and small) functions to do the work.
<Xach>
reepca: and code-char works as you'd expect for integers of any appropriate size, not just 8 bit integers.
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<p_l>
reepca: the standard is agnostic on Unicode, it works pretty well, though it might do things you don't expect (for example, combining characters are still separate characters - as mandated by unicode). UTF-8 technically should be handled through external-format, and yes, trivial-utf-8 works well enough.
<Xach>
if you have a vector of utf-8 encoded octets, you would have to assemble some of them into the right integers, as you were getting at...
<p_l>
remember that UTF-8 is "transport" format for Unicode
<Xach>
p_l: that has somehow become de facto internal representation in many places too
<p_l>
Xach: mostly because for various reasons they have grandfathered too small character size, or never supported external formats in any reasonable way
<p_l>
or both
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<p_l>
so you have Java that is stuck with 16bit characters, C/C++ that either is stuck with 8bit or 16bit and where UTF-8 was partially designed to "not trip code that doesn't understand anything other than 8bit ASCII"
<p_l>
there's Python with "we can be compiled with 32bit characters but our whole stack for handling formats is broken so good luck"
<p_l>
I think closest to CL handling is Plan9/Go, which default to UTF-8 *externally* and use opaque type for characters internally
<reepca>
p_l: unfortunately the only way I can think of to use external-format to solve the problem would be to have the same file open twice at the same time, one with utf8 encoding and one binary. I don't suppose the streams can have the external-format changed halfway through?
<p_l>
reepca: if you don't mind the performance hit, you might want to consider flexi-streams
<p_l>
it can switch between different external formats etc.
<reepca>
I think I'll just grab a copy of those small functions Xach was talking about
<Xach>
flexi-streams is slower than babel, iirc. but if you only need utf-8, trivial-utf-8 is good.
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<p_l>
flexi-streams is useful for switching between more than just encodings, iirc