<White_Flame>
yes, that is standard Common Lisp. lispworks and sbcl and all the other majors follow the standard
<White_Flame>
and even 1960s LISP does that in nature
<no-defun-allowed>
Er, even replacing the code in the debugger by mutating list structure?
* White_Flame
might have skimmed too shallowly
<no-defun-allowed>
You can replace functions quite easily, but I don't think that would work on compiled code.
<Bike>
wow, evalhook!
<Bike>
old school
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<White_Flame>
smokeink: having now properly read it, I don't think so. Also, 'grep -ir evalhook' in the sbcl directory returns nothing but a single binary match
<Bike>
it's pre-clhs
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<White_Flame>
well, CLHS does have issue articles recommending deprectaing evalhook-related stuff
<smokeink>
I'd like to be able in the repl to see the definition of some function/macro
<White_Flame>
if you can see it from DESCRIBE, the information is there. Just M-. till you hit it ;)
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<smokeink>
thanks
<White_Flame>
(of course, if you just want visual inspection, (describe #'foo) can work, too)
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<smokeink>
I'm working in the console without emacs, now I'll go figure out how M-. actually works
<Bike>
sb-introspect:find-definition-source
<Bike>
it will be rather less convenient, of course
<smokeink>
cool
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<smokeink>
is there any way to tell the debugger in the main thread to always (sb-thread:release-foreground) or (bordeaux-threads:yield-thread) when some error is triggered in other threads?
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<_death>
it is possible to replace the code in the debugger.. sbcl has an interpreter (actually, it has two) and you can switch to interpreter mode by doing (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret).. then you can evaluate the let form with the break and be able to modify the expression in the appropriate frame, but may be unable to restart it.. the way I got around that was to switch back to compile mode, redefine the main evaluator functions
<_death>
with debug 3, and retry.. then I could restart the frame after modification and continue to get 64
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<_death>
I see sb-fasteval has *applyhook* .. maybe both hooks could be added to sb-eval without too much trouble
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<White_Flame>
as I'm splitting a project into multiple directories, and thus creating asdf modules (not new systems) for each, I've come across a dependency that reaches to a peer directory. Is that expressable in asdf?
<White_Flame>
so this si a file dependency from low-level/file1.lisp of high-level/file2.lisp
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<johnjay>
does anybody know if ros system produces a 'bootstrap' file
<johnjay>
which makes configure and Makefiles, or is that something sbcl or what?
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<johnjay>
i have this Cl project from github and i'm trying to figure out how its build system works
<Bike>
well, i've never heard of a bootstrap file. the usual lisp build system is asdf, which involves .asd files.
<johnjay>
yeah this one has those.
<johnjay>
but i couldn't figure out how to go from those to running the application
<johnjay>
i somehow got it to produce some fasl files but then those stop with a package name error
<johnjay>
Bike: I run 'bootstrap' and it produces configure which then produces Makefile etc
<johnjay>
i'm guessing maybe roswell creates it since the instructions say to use ros to build and run it
<Bike>
does this project not have build instructions?
<johnjay>
ok. i've been struggling with quicklisp and asdf to even get them to compile parts of it
<johnjay>
like asdf.. @_@
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<johnjay>
there's like .local/share/something for the default place for projects. then like .config/lisp/something for a .conf file to extend that
<johnjay>
idk how it works
<no-defun-allowed>
Autoconf? In my Lisp build process?
<johnjay>
and apparently the quicklisp install failed too
<johnjay>
i had to type (ql:add-to-init-file) to get it to run when i start sbcl
<Bike>
that's part of the quicklisp install. quicklisp is not exactly installed unless you run that (or write out an initfile yourself)
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm deeply concerned that there are new Lisp projects with Makefiles.
<Bike>
the build instructions say to install ros, and then use ros to install lem. i would go with that if i were you.
<johnjay>
Bike: ah i see the problem. i wasn't reading the instructions on quicklisp.org but on the FAQ
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<johnjay>
and the FAQ sorta implies that (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path ".quicklisp/") is all you need
<Bike>
i mean, if you run that command, it tells you to run add-to-init-file
<Bike>
as i remember, anyway, it's been a while
<Bike>
you can also load quicklisp yourself just by loading quicklisp/setup.lisp
<Bike>
no-defun-allowed: it looks to me like the makefile just runs roswell
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure, that configure.ac is quite short.
<johnjay>
ah well my bad then
<Bike>
you don't seem familiar with common lisp, so rolling your own build procedure might be kind of an adventure, is all
<johnjay>
i didn't look but i did notice that changing the .lisp files was reflected in the output
<johnjay>
i.e. i changed some command and reran 'make' and got the new exe
<johnjay>
i've used quicklisp like twice before today
<johnjay>
and the asdf manual was confusing as a solar system with 2 suns
<Bike>
yes, it is confusing.
<Bike>
usually you just do something like (asdf:load-system :system-name)
<johnjay>
like... my $XDG variables dont' even have the same values as what it said
<Bike>
or better yet, (ql:quickload ;system-name)
<johnjay>
right. but then you have to start making symlinks to the .asd files it depends on or it won't see them
<Bike>
you can also push directories to uhhhh asdf:*central-registry* or something
<johnjay>
then there's a .asd in each dir so you start recursively making them
<Bike>
ah, i see.
<johnjay>
yeah idk. as you say i don't know what i'm doing
<johnjay>
but getting back to the ros thing.
<Bike>
you can put a symlink to the top directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, then run (ql:register-local-projects), and it'll go through recursively
<Bike>
maybe
<johnjay>
the problem is if roswell downloads and compiles the code automatically then i can't make ch anges to it
<johnjay>
maybe ros doesn't do that. but the syntax of 'ros install lem' made me think it does
<johnjay>
so yeah i was hoping you knew what this roswell thing does
<Bike>
oh, do you have lem working already, and now you're just making changes?
<Bike>
i personally don't, but some people here do use it
<johnjay>
just by luck
<johnjay>
i just ran 'bootstrap' and configure/make and it spit out an exe
<johnjay>
i struggled with quicklisp on the sbcl prompt for a while but didn't get much beyond symlinking all the asd files for it to find
<johnjay>
(note, quicklisp has 'lem' in its archive so can download it automatically. but i want to hack it not download it!)
<Bike>
well, quicklisp is very simple
<Bike>
it'll download the directory somewhere
<Bike>
and then if you try to quickload it again, it'll use that directory
<johnjay>
right but i couldn't run the application
<Bike>
so you can just edit stuff
<johnjay>
i tried things like (lem:lem-ncurses) and (lem:lem-main) and such but no dice
<johnjay>
i'm not even sure it's mean to run from sbcl at all
<Bike>
right, well, the other problem here is that looking at lem.asd and the readme, lem is meant to be an independent application
<Bike>
so not started from the repl, no
<johnjay>
that's what I guessed
<Bike>
it may be possible to do so, but it might not be the usual
<Bike>
but if it's in quicklisp, who knows
<johnjay>
so in your experience you typically use asdf and quicklisp as opposed to this roswell thingie?
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<johnjay>
i assume sbcl has special option in manual to make a fasl exe?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, Quicklisp (which wraps ASDF in a way where you will infrequently need to use ASDF yourself) is used more commonly.
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<no-defun-allowed>
SBCL has the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die function, which will create an executable if given :executable t
<johnjay>
i also get the distinct impression that most of you are using SLIME...
<johnjay>
is that close to accurate?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, that is also a common occurrence.
<johnjay>
ok. i suspected that maybe having no readline at all at the sbcl prompt was hard-mode
<johnjay>
but again it's hard to know without talking to someone
<no-defun-allowed>
SLIME definitely makes "Lisp things" like live reloading and debugging easier in that way.
<johnjay>
i'll settle for readline. i like pressing the up arrow and modifying what i just typed.
<no-defun-allowed>
I would strongly advise against that.
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<Bike>
i also use slime, but if you wanna give the terminal experience a shot, go crazy
<beach>
tourjin: But this function is allowed to return something that is not useful.
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<beach>
tourjin: Imagine if you could take an application written using a commercial implementation of Common Lisp, and you could recover the full source code of it.
<beach>
tourjin: Not many commercial companies would use Common Lisp then.
<beach>
tourjin: Why did you delete the source code in the first place?
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<tourjin>
I mean I want to read the function codes again what I compiled .... Yesterday I wrote this and that, simple tests . today after I erased some of them I like to see them again what I really typed in.
<tourjin>
can I do that?
<tourjin>
do you mean if once I compiled a function but erased it I can't see them again?
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<beach>
Like I said, it might work with the function I showed you.
<beach>
But, like I also said, it might not.
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<tourjin>
ok thank you
<beach>
tourjin: Compilation is not a reversible thing in general.
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<beach>
Did you quit your Common Lisp system in between? If so, you may have to look for the FASLs manually, hoping they are still around.
<tourjin>
no I turned it for days.
<beach>
Again, why did you not save the source in the first place?
<beach>
And if you saved it and deleted it, why did you not use GIT so that you can undo the operation?
<beach>
There seems to be something wrong with the way you work.
<tourjin>
thank you for good advise. I've never tried GIT yet. Do you keep every texts you type?
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<beach>
Pretty much, yes.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Are there any hash table implementations for CL that are specialised for string keys?
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<reepca>
could someone with the latest sbcl try running compile-file on http://paste.debian.net/1120751 and tell me what errors (if any) they get? I get a "failed AVER", but I'm on 1.5.8.
<smokeink>
SBCL 1.5.96e88b3c , no crash
<smokeink>
Component :BLAH not found
<reepca>
smokeink: is that in a fresh REPL?
<smokeink>
with quicklisp and swank/slime
<smokeink>
in a fresh --no-init one: ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.818
<smokeink>
3 warnings
<smokeink>
I used to get failed AVER errors with 1.5.9 , but with the last few commits it seems ok
<reepca>
alright, so it's probably an old bug that's since been fixed. Thanks.
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<Agent69>
omg Lisp?
<no-defun-allowed>
That's why we're here, yes.
<Agent69>
wondering what do you use it for?
<luis>
Agent69: money!
<Agent69>
nice
<Agent69>
what kind of projects do you make with it?
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<Agent69>
just curious
<phoe>
Agent69: work utils, libraries, I'm also working on a multiplayer storywriting service
<Xach>
websites, compilers, simulators
<Shinmera>
games
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<luis>
Agent69: a bunch of desktop GUI apps
<Agent69>
that's great
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<phoe>
inorite? I enjoy the language
<Agent69>
is there an official website where I can learn more about it?
<jackdaniel>
Agent69: common-lisp.net
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell Agent69 about pcl
<minion>
Agent69: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell Agent69 about paip
<minion>
Agent69: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel>
Agent69: if I may ask: what brought your attention to Lisp?
<phoe>
Agent69: try Practical Common Lisp first, but take the second chapter with a grain of salt. It is meant to show you an overall flow of the language, so do not try to understand everything that is happening in there.
<Agent69>
jackdaniel: I saw Lisp long time ago when I used to work with Autocad 2008, a scripting language to make custom tools inside of Autocad
<Agent69>
I didn't know it still existed to be honest
<Agent69>
I thought it's something very ancient
<phoe>
in a way it is
<phoe>
the code written in the 1960s still works, after modifying the language a tiny bit
<phoe>
but then again, it's because Common Lisp - the dialect that we use over here - maintains some backwards compatibility with earlier dialects which in turn maintain some backwards compatibility with even earlier dialects which in turn maintain some backwards compatibility with McCarthy's LISP 1.5
<jackdaniel>
Agent69: thansk for explaining. Common Lisp is a standard from '94; there are multiple implementations which are actively developed
<phoe>
it's amusing, but also tends to be useful when you dig out code from twenty years ago that you just boot and run and it works
<jackdaniel>
one most frequently used is sbcl, then ccl, and after that comes abcl, ccl, clisp, cmucl and ecl
<jackdaniel>
from free software implementations
<jackdaniel>
there is also lispworks common lisp and allegro common lisp, but they are not open source
<phoe>
also what jackdaniel said - Common Lisp is alive and its implementations are alive, both commercial and free software ones
<jackdaniel>
there is also clasp which is actively developed
<Agent69>
good to hear that it's still actively maintained
<phoe>
the language does have that feel that's somewhere between anachronism and timelessness™
<jackdaniel>
(it is meant for interoperation with c++ and for programming molecules)
<jackdaniel>
Agent69: if you want to hear a cool presentation, look up "clasp" on youtube, drmeister is a very passionate lecturer
<jackdaniel>
(and there are work-in-progress implementations like sicl)
<phoe>
but - Agent69: if you feel like learning, feel free to ask here or #clschool for support
<pjb>
phoe: yes, but you didn't quote the url.
<phoe>
pjb: oh, that's correct
<pjb>
Agent69: Assume you have to develop a X man.year system. If you have the money to pay for 2X men to develop it in six months, you can use Kotlin or Swift. If you have money for X men, you can consider C or C++. But if you're alone and it will take X years, better use CL which won't change in X years, so you won't have to rewrite your program each time a new version of the language is issued by people who only want to sell hardw
<pjb>
and who don't care about your needs.
<pjb>
What's the current version of Python already? 3.6? 3.8?
<Agent69>
good point but I think that applies only for big source code and software
<phoe>
Agent69: or for long-lived one
<phoe>
I personally grabbed the library from ftp://ftp.ai.mit.edu/pub/users/naha/WordNet/ and ported it to modern Common Lisp
<phoe>
it took writing an ASDF system definition since ASDF as a system manager didn't exist then
<phoe>
and porting it to a modern WordNet database file, since WordNet also evolved over time - namely, adding a field
<phoe>
and everything else just worked (other than MIT taking God damn four months to assign a MIT software license to this, c'mon what in the world would ever take so long)