<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, that looks like the right level of unicornlessness.
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<perfect_loser>
hi
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<phoe>
hey
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<no-defun-allowed>
That works then. Thanks phoe and Bike
<perfect_loser>
How do you compare Lisp to Common Scheme ?
<oni-on-ion>
well er wait Common Scheme ?
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<perfect_loser>
LOL
<perfect_loser>
sorry
<oni-on-ion>
do you mean "Common Lisp vs Scheme"? that is a good search term
<oni-on-ion>
(i've done it)
<perfect_loser>
Scheme to COmmon Lisp
<perfect_loser>
yes
<oni-on-ion>
=)
<oni-on-ion>
took me a sec
<perfect_loser>
You should invent this language
<perfect_loser>
Common Scheme
<oni-on-ion>
hehe. scheme is fine -- with the R5RS R7RS etc and the SFRI's
<oni-on-ion>
(or SRFI's?)
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<p_l>
SRFIs
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<jason_m>
Can I use symbol-macrolet to expand symbols like this: (with-foo (x y z) obj (+ x y z)) => (+ (foo obj x) (foo obj y) (foo obj z)) ? I seem to be having trouble with recursion blowing up the stack.
<Bike>
well it'll recursively expand x
<Bike>
you could bind %x to the x variable, and then symbol macrolet x to (foo obj %x)
<Bike>
where %x is a gensym
<jason_m>
Yes, that was what i was going to try next. But thought I would ask first before going that direction.
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<jason_m>
My first thought was it would be similar to how one might implement with-slots, but of course that has the important difference that the symbols are quoted in the expanded forms, so it is not recursive.
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<pjb>
Of course.
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<pjb>
But you need a special macro to do that.
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<pjb>
(defclass c () (x y z)) (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand form env)) (with-slots (x y z) (make-instance 'c) (expand x)) #| --> (slot-value #:g7852 'x) |#
<jasom>
moon-child: also, slime is smart enough to use load-asd if you C-c C-k a .asd file.
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<moon-child>
hmm. How do I actually make it load stuff? I have :components ((:file "fed")) in my defsystem, and :export #:do-stuff in my defpackage in fed.lisp (where do-stuff just prints a message), but running (fed:do-stuff) from the repl says 'Package FED does not exist'
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<jasom>
(asdf:load-system "foo")
<jasom>
did you accidentally do (defpackage "fed" ...)?
<jasom>
that will define a package named "fed" when you want a package named "FED"
<moon-child>
nope, (defpackage :fed)
<jasom>
then (asdf:load-system "fed") should load your system; you might need to do something to get asdf to reload the .asd file if it's changed I don't recall off the top of my head
<moon-child>
doesn't work. I say sbcl --eval '(asdf:load-asd "/home/elronnd/code/fed/src/fed.asd")' --eval '(asdf:load-system "fed")' and get an error about 'component "fed" not found'
<jasom>
that's odd
<moon-child>
eh, symlinked the whole project into ~/common-lisp/. Easier than figuring this crap out
<jason_m>
Bike: I went the way you suggested, binding gensyms to my variables, and then expanding to forms that use the gensyms. Working like a charm.
<jasom>
FYI, IIRC symlinked directories didn't work in CCL 10 years ago; that may have been fixed in the meantime though. Should work with sbcl either way though.
<jasom>
The "component "fed" not found" was "fed" in the same directory as fed.asd?
<jasom>
The "component "fed" not found" was fed.lisp in the same directory as fed.asd?
<moon-child>
yah
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<jasom>
no clue; I do the load-asd thing all the time with no issues.
<moon-child>
eh, it's fine. This is a fine solution (and probably cleaner, too)
<jasom>
cool
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<vseloved>
moon-child: asdf:load-asd doesn't load the whole system, it only loads the ASD file and registers it. That's why you need asdf:load-system
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<equwal>
Good morning beach!
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<phoe>
morning
<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning phoe
<easye>
Mornin', phoe.
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<phoe>
I wonder why CCL actually separates its compilation into stages
<phoe>
if it cross-compiles a half of its FASLs into a bootstrapping image that then loads everything up and produces a normal image, why can't it just cross-compile everything into a normal image and skip the bootstrapping image part
<shka__>
phoe: one common reason to do so is to reduce memory usage
<shka__>
it is frequent in compilers that originate from limited hardware
<phoe>
shka__: is that still a real issue nowadays?
<phoe>
I understand where it comes from
<shka__>
it is not, but you can't just erase history
<phoe>
but I don't know if it still has a reasonable explanation in modern times
<phoe>
what do you mean, erase history
<shka__>
even visual studio had this legacy
<Shinmera>
might also be that it's hard to ensure system stability if you start replacing core parts
<phoe>
Shinmera: that's why I pointed out *cross-compilation*
<phoe>
the way I understand CCL build process now is, it actually cross-compiles the core FASLs into a fake heap that doesn't touch the original one
<phoe>
so the parts of the original core system are not modified that way
<phoe>
(assuming that I understand the build process correctly)
<Shinmera>
well if parts of the new should influence further compilation then you have to make the new build the rest.
<Shinmera>
or replace the old and make that build the rest
<Shinmera>
or have both coexist (SICL method)
<phoe>
yes, that's correct, I have run into that issue a few times now - I have to modify the old compiler to be able to build the new one
<Shinmera>
right, and doing so is hard to keep stable.
<phoe>
correct
<Shinmera>
much easier to have a clean slate.
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<phoe>
overall, I am trying to understand and simplify CCL's build process in order to someday make it bootstrappable off any standard CL
<phoe>
and it's practically impossible to do so with all the current cruft and weirdnesses standing in the way
<Shinmera>
that's a tall order. SBCL goes through great pains to make it possible.
<phoe>
well if SBCL can do that then so can CCL
<Shinmera>
anything is possible
<Shinmera>
The question is whether it's worth the effort.
<aeth>
anything computable is possible...
<aeth>
sometimes the time involved takes too long, though
<phoe>
if I understand the absolute basics, then one would need to load the CCL compiler into any CL image, then have that compiler build CCL
<phoe>
this already requires the compiler to be cleanly loadable as a library
<phoe>
so it can't depend on anything that is CCL-specific unless that part is also loadable as a library.
<Shinmera>
that's already troublesome due to assumptions about types and sizes and such
<phoe>
and woohoo that is already a lot of work to do
<phoe>
yes, it would involve explicitly writing out all things that are implicit now
<Shinmera>
I mean, just my ppinion, but I feel like there's more worthwhile things to invest time in.
<phoe>
Shinmera: I respect your opinion, and yet I feel like investing my time in cleaning up the mess that CCL currently is.
<phoe>
jackdaniel: hey that's enjoyable
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<jackdaniel>
I've already spotted a bug thanks to that (not something user would notice, because compilation result is correct though suboptimal) -- inlined let variables does not have propagated types
<galdor>
it makes me feel better about not finding out how to rebuild CCL despite the documentation
<galdor>
apparently I need to build a special stage, and I cannot build it with the packaged ccl for Archlinux
<galdor>
(and for the record thank you for investing time and energy in CCL, having more than one major, actively maintained CL implementation is a good thing)
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<phoe>
the process is ugly and I have no idea if any information is actually not in the source code anywhere but instead passed around only from binary to binary
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<phoe>
such as the ominous lack of DEFPACKAGE "COMMON-LISP" anywhere in the source tree
<jackdaniel>
(cl:defpackage cl) -> error, no such package
<phoe>
jackdaniel: that was a metaphor, eh
<jackdaniel>
metaphor of what?
<phoe>
I don't know where the actual CL package for the new Lisp image is created in the CCL build process
<phoe>
and what is its state based on
<phoe>
and whether it's specified anywhere in the source code or whether it's the state of whatever is in the existing binary image
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<phoe>
SBCL makes it explicit with its :SB!XC package that is then renamed to :COMMON-LISP
<phoe>
I see not such explicitness in CCL just yet
<galdor>
what does "XC" means for SBCL?
<phoe>
cross-compiled
<galdor>
good to know, thank you
<phoe>
:sb!xc is the package that is meant to become the target :common-lisp package.
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: it takes the package from the host, see l1-cl-package.lisp and (defconstant *common-lisp-package* *common-lisp-package*) in l1-init.lisp
<jackdaniel>
(since ccl is always bootstrapped from ccl it is fine I suppose)
<beach>
phoe: Have you read Xof's paper on bootstrapping SBCL and our paper on bootstrapping Common Lisp on Common Lisp?
<phoe>
beach: yes, both.
<beach>
Good.
<phoe>
jackdaniel: I actually just found it
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<beach>
phoe: It is not trivial to accomplish what you want.
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<phoe>
xdump/xfasload.lisp has a function called XLOAD-CLONE-PACKAGES that "clones" the existing CL package and then dumps that in the FASL.
<phoe>
beach: I'm well aware of it.
<shka__>
dumps package?
<phoe>
shka__: dupms the package object in there, I mean.
<jackdaniel>
shka__: make-load-object etc
<phoe>
s/dupms/dumps/
<shka__>
what is included?
<shka__>
in the dump, i mean
<phoe>
shka__: I'm still reading the code. Seems like just the import and export tables and the package name and nicknames.
<phoe>
And that is good, since for the CL package this is pretty much constant.
<phoe>
At least the name, nicknames, and exports are all standardized.
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<pjb>
phoe: the actual operator to create packages is the function make-package. The CL package is not essential to the creation of a CL implementation. Calling make-package can be the last thing done by a CL implementation…
<pjb>
phoe: and indeed, when you are generating a new CL implementation, you don't need to define its objects. You only need to write an image file…
<phoe>
pjb: yes, I've already explained it is a metaphor.
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<pjb>
AH, if it's a metaphor, ok.
<phoe>
I wanted to see where the object that will become the new #<Package COMMON-LISP> is instantiated. And I finally found it.
<pjb>
Good.
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<jackdaniel>
I think that metaphor is not the right word here
<jackdaniel>
maybe a substitute, or a mental shortcut
<phoe>
mental shortcut is better, yes
<phoe>
thanks
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<pfdietz>
(reads back) Making the SBCL build process not be self-modifying had a cost. The SBCL build took 2x as long as a CMUCL build after they were forked. Not important now, of course.
<phoe>
not important, why?
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<jmercouris>
because build time is not important
<jmercouris>
it is a fixed cost, you don't find yourself building over and over again as a user
<jackdaniel>
build time is still important, especially for a developer. it is just that build times are more than 2x faster now
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<jackdaniel>
so the hardware improvements (and later build improvements) offsetted the initial drawback
<phoe>
jmercouris: unless you are an implementation maintainer and you build your implementation over and over and over, at which point the delays compound into something significant
<jackdaniel>
it is not uncommon for users to complain about long build times (especially on subpar hardware, i.e armv7)
<phoe>
also what jackdaniel says
<jmercouris>
phoe: I said very clearly that as a user it is irrelevant to you
<phoe>
well I ain't a user here
<jmercouris>
I don't care
<phoe>
neither do I
<jackdaniel>
"compilation time doesn't matter" is a fad which was quite popular at some point of time
<phoe>
I'm curious about pfdietz's reasoning behind the "not important now"
<jmercouris>
It still doesn't matter
<jmercouris>
any decent package manager distributes binaries as well
<jmercouris>
I don't expect people to compile firefox on their machines
<phoe>
...such as Quicklisp
<jmercouris>
Quicklisp is not an operating system package manager
<jmercouris>
its almost 2020, join us in the new era
<phoe>
I'm not talking about operating system package managers, I'm talking about building Lisp implementations
<phoe>
specifically about the bootstrapping part
<jackdaniel>
fact that it doesn't matter to you and that you live in 2020 (off by one error?) is of no relevance to me ;)
<jmercouris>
Ah okay, I see we are not open to new viewpoints today
<jmercouris>
maybe another day
<jackdaniel>
if you are not open to them, then I'm sorry to hear that ,) we are getting back to more productive endavours
<phoe>
I'm open about viewpoints, I'm closed to derailing conversations into offtopic
<jmercouris>
both of you have it out for me it seems! anyways, agreed, let's stop here
<phoe>
I asked pfdietz about why sbcl build time doesn't matter now, not you about why all build time doesn't matter in general
<phoe>
these two questions are pretty different and turn into different discussions, don'tcha think
<phoe>
anyway, I'm back to hacking for now
<pjb>
Perhaps they use incremental build while developping/debuging the implementation?
<pfdietz>
sbcl build time is not important, or at least less important, now because it's so much shorter than it was then.
<pfdietz>
Remember, this is 20 years ago we're talking about.
* jackdaniel
scores 10 points for anticipating the reasoning :)
<phoe>
pfdietz: as in, there's been build time improvements over that time? or moore's law?
<pfdietz>
Moore's law, I think. If anything, there's been some increase in the amount of computation done for a build. I think SBCL's optimizations have gotten more expensive, for example.
<beach>
phoe: Moore's law is about the number of transistors on a chip. Not about speed.
<pfdietz>
Smaller transistors are typically faster, though.
<phoe>
beach: thanks for the correction.
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<pfdietz>
The move from 32 to 64 bit builds also introduced a one-time speedbump. Cons cells got twice as big.
<pfdietz>
The build is also accelerated now by being able to use multiple cores. That could probably be pushed further, but as it stends SBCL builds and runs the post-build tests in 1:15 on this machine.
<pfdietz>
Compared to building Clang, that's nearly instantaneous. :)
<dlowe>
cons cells got twice as big but we got more type tags and bigger fixnums
<Shinmera>
and unboxed single floats
<pfdietz>
Yes. I also remember the speed hit paleolisps took when we went from 16 to 32 bits. Not much you can do in 16 bits, admittedly.
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<ghard>
Hello all
<phoe>
heyyy
<phoe>
pfdietz: thanks for the explanation.
<beach>
Hello ghard.
<ghard>
Has anybody tried using zs3 with DigitalOcean Spaces?
<jackdaniel>
I think that Xach uses zs3 for quicklisp, but I know no details
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<ghard>
Yeah I was trying to quickly glance through the docs to see if the endpoint base URLs are configurable. Spaces claims to be API-compatible with S3
<ghard>
Okay I get back to RTFM on it :)
<pfdietz>
The *fine* manual!
<ghard>
It actually is quite nice comparing to some :) All kudos to xach.
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<pjb>
beach: what if you put enough transistors on a chip to compute all possible hash values at once. Would that make it faster to find bitcoins? Would I be able to find all the remaining bitcoins?
<pjb>
Of course, there are problems that are not parallelizable. I don't think I could find all the remaining bitcoins at once. But I could find them faster than the other miners…
<pjb>
Happily for bitcoins, there are fewer atoms in the universe than hash values…
<pjb>
Isn't it funny to live in a finite universe?
<ghard>
I reckon not even the rotational energy of Steve Jobs in his grave would be enough to pay the electricity bill for that amount of transistors?
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<ghard>
THough the universe might be finite, the number of them might not be *ducks*.
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<jackdaniel>
the interesting point about islisp is that it got founding and drained people from eulisp, so instead of an interesting dialect finished we got a stripped down islisp
<jackdaniel>
I think that Kent Pitman wrote a piece about it
<beach>
Do you mean that Eulisp is a stripped down ISLisp?
<jackdaniel>
no, islisp is a stripped down common lisp
<beach>
Ah, I see.
<jackdaniel>
and (afaik) eulisp was started by dissatisfied european lispers who were not invited to cl standarization process (and the rationale from us was that there was no ill will, but rather it would be too troublesome to cooparate across the ocean)
<beach>
I don't follow the logic, but I believe you.
<jackdaniel>
I'm afk now (will read the backlog later)
<jackdaniel>
I mean: people who were working on eulisp got hired to work on islisp
<beach>
I understand, but I don't follow the logic consequence that therefore ISLisp is a stripped-down Common Lisp.
<william1>
Do people recommend Practical Common Lisp as an intro to Lisp?
<beach>
william1: Yes, to people who already know how to program in some other language.
<william1>
So I'm a rubyist by occupation
<william1>
And know how to program I'd say
<william1>
Thanks
<beach>
Sure.
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<beach>
william1: If you have questions, you can ask here.
<beach>
And if the questions are truly trivial, you will be directed to #clschool instead.
<william1>
Do you dabble in other languages beach?
<beach>
Me? Not anymore.
<william1>
Fair enough :)
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<beach>
william1: What made you decide to learn Common Lisp?
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<Lycurgus>
ruby
<jackdaniel>
beach: that was a claim, not a consequence of previous statements. let me look for a link where Kent Pitman goes over islisp
<beach>
jackdaniel: Ah, OK.
<beach>
jackdaniel: I misunderstood the "so ....".
<jackdaniel>
right
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<jackdaniel>
beach: I give up, I can't find the piece I was referring to where Pitman talks about IsLisp being basically a subset of CL, only some remarks about "cultural compatibility". If I find it accidently later I will link it
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<beach>
I vaguely remember something like that.
<beach>
Don't worry about it.
<jackdaniel>
he was listing islisp operators and for each of them there were three or four cl counterparts
<_death>
pjb: but then you would need to qualify, #'(cl:lambda ...)
<pjb>
Unless you redefine #' to substitute for you :-)
<Bike>
i guess the "confusion about why the arguments are treated differently from the head" thing did kind of pan out
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<_death>
pjb: #' is just a shorthand for (function ...) so now you need to replace cl:function
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<_death>
and note that in clhs there are multiple entries for lambda/function... and there's a lot of code that depends on CL symbol identity for functionality, so it's a fool's errand
<_death>
basically if you shadow-import CL-like names, you're not in Kansas anymore
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<pjb>
_death: #' is not a shorthand. There's no shorthand in CL. #' is a dispatching reader macro. This is something that you can mutate.
<pjb>
_death: CL is not Kansas. It's more like Wonderland.
<Bike>
this doesn't change the point that cl:function can be used by itself
<jackdaniel>
Land of Oz would be a better reference
<Bike>
and cl:lambda has meanings in other places, like coerce and compile
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<mfiano>
You can't use #'(lambda ...) everywhere lambda is accepted.
* jackdaniel
tries (#'(lambda () 42)) to no avail ,-)
<mfiano>
Also :report in conditions and restarts
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<jasom>
#' is a shorthand for (function ...) under standard syntax...
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<pfdietz>
(CAR '#'FOO) ==> FUNCTION
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<aeth>
you can see this in macros
<aeth>
If you want a macro to handle #'foo in a special way, you're really looking for (function foo)
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<aeth>
then you can e.g. have that macro turn it into (foo ...)
<aeth>
Strangely, that would mean that #'(lambda ...) would work and (lambda ...) would not, bringing us full circle
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