<_death>
Xach: I use archlinux, so pacman -S hspell
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<_death>
Xach: I also have it installed on a debian server (apt)
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<dmiles>
`+
<dmiles>
White_Flame: the real power of the locative is not what it sets.. it what it makes appear in several locations
<dmiles>
well at least just one power of locatives
<White_Flame>
well, that's just effectively shared structure
<White_Flame>
which can be pulled off by a number of things
<dmiles>
yeah i wasn ted to actualyl that it it really is abotu structure sharing
<White_Flame>
if locatives were somehow transparently traversed, then it would have such magic effects, but probably be unworkable
<dmiles>
yeah i wanted to actualyl that it is really is about structure sharing.. to be ablke to have a CDR withotu a CONS
<White_Flame>
yeah, for purely CONS-based stuff, having a cdr iterator function instead of just a data link would be somewhat interesting
<dmiles>
yeah that is pretty neat and important
<White_Flame>
again, the main difference is if diverting pointers or accessors would be followed implicitly, instead of requiring dereferencing them manually/specifically
<dmiles>
( i was really tryign to say .. "to have structure sharing yet evenb when no structrures exist)
<dmiles>
for exmaple.. imagine a symbol value exists in 5 places at once
<dmiles>
all you have to do is change the symbol value
<White_Flame>
was that implemented with locatives though?
<dmiles>
since all 6 locations are pointing to the same memloc
<dmiles>
so if you try to set any of the 6 the memloc gets updated
<dmiles>
in lisp machine and early ECL it was
<White_Flame>
ok, it's been a while since I was in my emlation stuff
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<White_Flame>
but I do remember symbol-value sharing
<White_Flame>
as a general feature
<dmiles>
ELC when it was ECoLisp
<dmiles>
all the locative stuff can be ealily emulated nowadays... just much slower
<dmiles>
easily*
<White_Flame>
yep
<White_Flame>
(although faster than VLM code)
<dmiles>
since nowadays you have to find all 5 places and trrhe symbol value and if any one is set you have to go and update the otehr 5
<White_Flame>
I just used cons cells for a poor man's locative container
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<White_Flame>
each symbol-value would hold a ref to the cons cell
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<White_Flame>
share the CAR
<dmiles>
yeah
<White_Flame>
while it "wastes a slot" it's less usually memory footprint & code than a 1-element structure or array
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<dmiles>
what ECL used to have ia as brtilliant dynanmic extent on locatives
<dmiles>
what ECL used to have is a brilliant dynanmic extent on locatives that merely could forget about them or not
<dmiles>
(managed by WAM)
<dmiles>
though its funny EcoLisp didnt have wam.. but as locatives got dropped WAM got added
<dmiles>
it been a bit cooler had it had both at the same time
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<moon-child>
hi beach
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<beach>
moon-child: What kind of GUIs are you planning to make?
<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning beach!
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<moon-child>
beach: I was gonna make an editor
<beach>
For that kind of stuff, McCLIM is ideal, provided you want to program in Common Lisp of course.
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<beach>
What are some of the characteristics of this editor? What kind of stuff will the user edit?
<moon-child>
I looked at that. It seems to only work under x, though?
<moon-child>
I found a 'backends' dir, and it had clx, clx-fb, and a bunch of irrelevant junk
<beach>
I think X11 is the only backend we have right now, yes.
<moon-child>
beach: I recently started using emacs, and while I am impressed, I want to a) do better; b) make my own
<beach>
OK.
<moon-child>
(longtime vim user previously)
<beach>
What kind of backend do you need?
<moon-child>
something that will work cross-platforms. If there are plans to add other backends 's probably fine
<beach>
There are plans for other backends. And you may want to consider writing one that you need. You will save time by implementing your editor in Common Lisp, and you will help others who need that backend.
<beach>
Do you have much experience implementing editors?
<moon-child>
the editor was always going to be in cl, the question was just what the graphics backend would be
<beach>
That's a big "just" right there.
<moon-child>
fair enough
<moon-child>
I made a code-golfed editor in 2kb of c a while back. That's it
<beach>
When you start mixing languages where some have manual memory management, you are in for a debugging nightmare.
<moon-child>
believe me, I know it. I wrote an embedding thingy for perl6 and getting it to talk to c well was awful
<beach>
OK, then you should know that I have plans for an editor for Common Lisp code. I already wrote (first) Climacs, and I have a design for Second Climacs. And loke is working on one as well. So if you need advice, just ask.
<beach>
I do, but I don't remember by heart. You can look at Second Climacs, but I advise against trying it.
<beach>
Ah, thanks!
<beach>
I think (first) Climacs is in Quicklisp, but I don't remember where it is taken from.
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<beach>
moon-child: Because of item b above, I am not suggesting a collaboration. But I can give advice.
<beach>
And I have a library for representing the buffer. It is called Cluffer.
<beach>
It is tested and documented.
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<moon-child>
probably don't want to collab anyway. I have different goals to emacs; what I want to make is a development of editors informed by my experience with emacs, but which is probably closer to vim in the end, which seems different from what y'all are making
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<moon-child>
I saw cluffer, was thinking of using it. Also looking at the backend interface for clim to see how much work a w32 port would be
<beach>
The editor I am planning would not be designed around key bindings. The essential design would about parsing buffer contents incrementally and displaying information to the user. Key bindings is just a minor thing.
<moon-child>
base of my plan is automation
<moon-child>
with more granular levels of temporality than just permanent(-ish) config files and transient macros
<beach>
Sounds good. Good luck.
<moon-child>
thanks
<moon-child>
you too!
<beach>
Thanks. I am currently busy with other stuff, but I'll get back to it at some point.
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<_death>
Xach: hmm now that akoana mentioned it I do remember something about static lib only.. maybe I compiled it on the server to get the dynamic library
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<flip214>
Shinmera: ELS2020 will be €150 again
<flip214>
?
<Shinmera>
I don't know.
<Shinmera>
I'm only local chair, pricing is not my domain.
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<flip214>
well, it's a good first guess, right? Who else should I ask?
<Shinmera>
Didier
<flip214>
thanks!
<Shinmera>
The pricing should be similar to previous ELSes that were not co-located
<Shinmera>
(so a bit cheaper than co-located ones)
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<Xach>
_death: drat
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<phoe>
Xach: seems like a .so is available, but not in the debian repositories
<phoe>
this means that either someone asks the debian maintainers to include a .so in the package or that the Lisp system will have to provide a .so on its own
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<Xach>
or, as i sometimes do, i have to build and install it myself to complete the build
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<phoe>
that is possible
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<phoe>
but then the system won't work on anyone else's system that has stock debian
<phoe>
if that is a non-issue, then things are fine
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<Xach>
it will work if people also compile and install the library
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<dlowe>
I really love the emacs daemon/client setup and if I were going to write an editor, it would have that design from the beginning
<phoe>
Xach: that kinda works, but then (ql:quickload :hspell) won't work out of the box
<phoe>
or is this one a non-issue
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<dlowe>
so it could have terminal and gui clients as separate projects, potentially
<Xach>
when i was a boy we downloaded cpio files from freshmeat gopher
<Xach>
phoe: many things don't work out of the box, it is not an issue
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<dlowe>
heh, I didn't know freshmeat had a gopher interface
<antoszka>
still working?
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<Xach>
maybe it didn't, my mind is so old it has turned partially to oatmeal
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<_death>
let lisp provide the fingernail clippings and you're set
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<kmeow>
How do I use libraries (without quicklisp) in Common Lisp? I've downloaded one but don't know what to do, exactly, in the script I'm trying to use it with
<Xach>
kmeow: you need to load asdf, put the libraries somewhere asdf knows about (or you teach asdf about), then use (asdf:load-system "the library name"), and then you can work with the library's functions and data and such.
<phoe>
kmeow: Quicklisp uses ASDF underneath to actually load libraries into Lisp.
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<kmeow>
hm, alright. I guess I'm stuck on the teaching asdf about them part
<Xach>
I think asdf automagically knows about libraries in the ~/common-lisp/ directory but I'm not 100% sure
<kmeow>
ahhh
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<pfdietz>
I just put these things in quicklisp/local-projects/ and let ql load them. You may need to call (ql:register-local-projects) again.
<Xach>
pfdietz: "no quicklisp" was stipulated
<pfdietz>
Ah, ok.
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<kmeow>
I'm mostly trying to figure out how to have all the scripts in one directory all together, so it might be redistributed
<kmeow>
I've been reading the asdf manual for a couple hours now I guess
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<Xach>
kmeow: I feel that's generally going against the grain of Common Lisp
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<Xach>
kmeow: but with that use-case in mind, quicklisp can bundle up a bunch of libraries (even non-quicklisp libraries) and make them loadable by loading a little loader script that omits quicklisp
<d4ryus>
Xach: I guess the statement "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp." is obsolete then?
<Xach>
d4ryus: i agree it's a little confusing, but the meaning there is that it can only automatically bundle quicklisp-provided systems, and other systems have to be copied into the bundle's local-projects directory.
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<d4ryus>
Xach: ah, i see. Thats pretty neat, i was looking for a tool doing exactly that :)
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<mercourisj>
Does Quicklisp do any handling of external dependencies? Eg. installing shared libraries? Has it been discussed?
<Xach>
mercourisj: it does not. i feel the problem is very big with the diversity of platforms that support Common Lisp.
<mercourisj>
the problem is in fact very large
<mercourisj>
I have been thinking about it with regards to the context of Next
<phoe>
mercourisj: it is left for each system to do and define
<mercourisj>
I'm thinking about just adding some sort of abstraction layer to install using the user's package manager
<phoe>
some of those compile C code, some of those pull precompiled binaries from the network
<phoe>
that's done by programming ASDF
<mercourisj>
phoe: That puts a huge burden on the author
<phoe>
mercourisj: what's the other option that you propose
<mercourisj>
I just said it above
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<mercourisj>
a universal interface to package managers
<Xach>
mercourisj: something like that exists already
<mercourisj>
it has been done before, it is not a fantastic solution, but it works *OK* without much work
<mercourisj>
does it exist for Common Lisp already?
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<kmeow>
the quicklisp bundle seems to have worked for me
<Xach>
There is a CL project that is an interface to package managers. I don't know how universal it is.
<Xach>
kmeow: glad to hear it.
<kmeow>
ty
<mercourisj>
Xach: do you happen to know the name of it?
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<Xach>
I don't like it a ton because it presumes a user is allowed to install stuff from the package manager, when that's not always the case.
<mercourisj>
as an aside, I don't like all of these 'trivial-x' named projects
<mercourisj>
yeah depending on who they are running the package manager as...
<Xach>
I don't like things named "quick*" that are not part of the quicklisp project, but what can ya do.
<phoe>
running lisp as superuser is kinda asking for trouble
<Xach>
i screwed that up myself
<Xach>
phoe: yes - it might become sentient and take over!!
<mercourisj>
why is it called quicklisp anyways?
<Xach>
mercourisj: because it makes it quick to use lisp stuff
<mercourisj>
missed opportunity to call it LPM and inherit the great legacy of NPM
<Xach>
quicklisp predates npm
<phoe>
> great
<mercourisj>
name change, livescript->javascript, quicklisp->lpm
<phoe>
mercourisj: we already have everything great that NPM contains, namely (ql:quickload :trivial-left-pad)
<Xach>
I can't remember the other candidate names. I did know I didn't want something that was hard to pronounce or disgusting.
<mercourisj>
ah, one of my favorite packages, super useful
<Xach>
or confusing
<Xach>
asdf-install led to a ton of confusion about what was doing what, for example
<Xach>
mudballs, another project installation manager, is kind of gross
<Xach>
clornucopia is hard to say
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<mercourisj>
People tend to name things very stupidly
<Xach>
What was the one that pulled everything from git all the time?
<mercourisj>
in many ways, Next is also a very stupid name...
<Xach>
The name escapes me
<mercourisj>
'git pull'?
<phoe>
next is obviously the new filesystem format based on ext, the acronym comes from Next EXT
<Xach>
mercourisj: there was a lisp project that predated quicklisp that fetched the entire universe of libraries from git to local directories. so you could have an entire hackable universe at your fingertips, and push and pull and such.
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<Xach>
this was in an interesting time when core libraries would be hosted on peoples' personal git repo and that would be unavailable sometimes
<mercourisj>
phoe: Yes, exactly :-D
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<phoe>
Xach: so basically an eager-by-default quicklisp
<phoe>
also fully decentralized
<mercourisj>
these days I want updates before the user even types C-x C-s
<Xach>
phoe: sort of, and without the proxy step of hosting everything on a pretty reliable CDN/file store
<Xach>
i recall outages regularly breaking the world
<phoe>
yes, that is imaginable
<Xach>
quicklisp is a reaction to a world that is so distant now i can't remember the names of the pieces :~(
<Xach>
lukego: well, you would know, what was the lisp thing that had metadata for checking out everything from git?
<Xach>
it was old enough that it involved mercurial and svn and other stuff too.
* edgar-rft
always thought that quicklisp was made from bisquick cookies
<Xach>
a common misconception
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<Cymew>
It was a short while when darcs was the big thing for lisp, and nothing much else. I remember that now. How nice that has passed.
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<Xach>
everyone using the same thing has its ups and downs
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<dlowe>
well, there was asdf-install, too, which went to a wiki and downloaded whatever it found there
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<_death>
biglisp could be world-yyyymmdd.tar.gz containing all libraries
<phoe>
basically a full quicklisp dist in a single archive
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<_death>
or a git repo with submodule for each library
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<phoe>
oh god imagine syncing this
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<galdor>
Xach: while I appreciate the usefulness of the same thing for everyone, I find it a deal breaker for various use cases, such as the quite simple "I had to patch lib X, and now I want my colleagues to be able to use it automatically"
<galdor>
just being able to create custom quicklisp distributions would help
<galdor>
that and having quicklisp bundled with CL implementations
<galdor>
I had recent occasions where I could have sneak CL for some non-critical tools
<galdor>
but not being able to make it just work for my colleagues without writing crazy scripts is a deal breaker
<galdor>
hell, just not having to clone some of my patched stuff and make sure to update it synchronously between laptop and desktop would be nice
<dlowe>
Xach has encouraged people to write new quicklisp distributions
<dlowe>
so far no one has taken him up on it
<galdor>
is there some documentation of the subject ? last time I checked I seem to remember it was not possible, I may have missed something
<Xach>
It's possible, but there's no docs to help it along, and that is bad.
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<dlowe>
all things are possible with enough code
<dlowe>
and docs
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<Xach>
galdor: i find there are some drawbacks to including quicklisp with implementations
<Xach>
I dislike the situation of "are you using clozure quicklisp or scieneer quicklisp?" and how it affects providing support
<galdor>
yeah it makes sense
<galdor>
I'm playing with the idea of writing a rebar3-like tool, but it is really not that simple
<Xach>
i have not used it, but my understanding of qlot suggests that it aims to make it possible to draw exact versions of libraries from a variety of sources, including but not limited to quicklisp
<galdor>
especially since most systems do not care about proper versioning and dependency constraints
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<Xach>
oh, this is a rerun of our earlier discussion somewhat
<galdor>
yup
<galdor>
I cannot find qlot with google, who knows I may find it again sometime
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<boeg>
If I have a string string "Hello", and I want a list ("H" "ello"), what's the easiest way? I'm thinking something like (list (car string) (cdr string))
<jasom>
is this a homework assignment? Someone asked the same thing yesterday...
<jasom>
FWIW, this will do it: (list (char string 0) (subseq string 1))
<boeg>
Not in my case, I'm just trying to see if I can find a less manual way to split strings composed of a letter followed by numbers for advent of code. I'm doing advent of code this year to learn common lisp
<jasom>
ah advent of code, that makes sense then
<boeg>
thanks
<jasom>
oh what I said was wrong
<jasom>
you it will give you (#\H "ello")
<jasom>
so (list (subseq string 0 1) (subseq string 1))
<_death>
boeg: you may notice that many functions, e.g. parse-integer, take :start/:end arguments
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<boeg>
_death: what are you thinking? In this case, wouldn't `(list (subseq string 0 1) (parse-integer (subseq string 1)))` makes sense?
<boeg>
jasom: ah, now I get what _death meant. Smart
<jasom>
strings are mutable in lisp, so proper safe slicing requires a copy.
<boeg>
good to know
<_death>
also, "making" a character may be more efficient than making a string
<boeg>
I'm not optimizing yet, but i'll keep it in mind, thank you :)
<_death>
characters also can be compared using EQL, which many operators use as default for comparison
<White_Flame>
and characters are immutable and non-composite
<boeg>
lots of info, thank you
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<_death>
(strings too can be compared using EQL, but that may not do what you expect)
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<jasom>
_death: at least in most lisp implementations it's more obviously wrong to compare strings with EQL than the python equivalent (python interns strings that are valid identifiers under a certain length, so comparing with "is" sometimes works and sometimes doesn't)
<_death>
jasom: ouch
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<_death>
jasom: on the other hand the default python comparison operator would "work" with strings
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<parisienne>
sup my lispers
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<jasom>
How am I supposed to sup with out any food?
<Bike>
breatharianism
<Bike>
or you eat the lispers
<parisienne>
ou snap. Is there a way to send food over p2p?
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<jasom>
just convert bites to bytes
<parisienne>
maybe I'll just send u some nibbles if the bytes are too big