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<beach>
If people here are bored, and are looking for things to do, I think I can come up with some tasks for them. :)
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<Duuqnd>
Well, I'm trying to get text rendering to work in my game engine, so I've got plenty to do.
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<ck_>
idle chat is the well from which we refill our motivation, beach. Don't take it away please
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm not bored, just taking a break from deciding how to hide disk serialisation stuff with macros.
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<jackdaniel>
Duuqnd: take a look at cl-vectors for ttf font handling
<Duuqnd>
Thanks, I'll take a look.
<Duuqnd>
I've been using cl-sdl2-ttf so far, but it's not being cooperative at the moment.
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<no-defun-allowed>
beach: Have you come up with any new projects?
<ArthurStrong>
Has anyone seen good examples of MuD written in lisp or interactive fiction (like adventure)?
<ArthurStrong>
I'm sure someone did it
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<jackdaniel>
ArthurStrong: I'd ask on #lispgame channel
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<jackdaniel>
they have regular game jams, I'm sure someone ended up with a mud
<ArthurStrong>
jackdaniel: if it would exist...
<jackdaniel>
#lispgames , sorry
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<Duuqnd>
Zork was written a Lisp dialect.
<ArthurStrong>
jackdaniel: OIC, thanks
<jackdaniel>
it is a vibrant community with their own wikis etc
<aeth>
#lispgame doesn't exist because there's more than one game!
<beach>
ck_: It was a joke.
<ck_>
beach: it sounded like a half joke (you do curate a list of sicl-related tasks), so I made one in return :)
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: You mean in addition to the ones on my list of suggested projects? metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html ?
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Not really no.
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<Duuqnd>
beach: That list has some interesting stuff on it. I might try doing one of those projects some day.
<beach>
Great! When you do, please don't hesitate to ask me about them.
<phoe>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello phoe.
<phoe>
hey hi beach
<phoe>
I got some rather good (and old) criticism on my LOOP FINALLY stuff, time to read it all now that I have the time
<beach>
Are things slow at work?
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<Duuqnd>
beach: Btw, I read that Swedish spelling reformation page, and I can't decide whether I love it or hate it.
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<beach>
Heh!
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<phoe>
beach: yes. Slow enough for me to indulge in debates over ANSI CL.
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<Duuqnd>
beach: I mean, it makes sense, it would probably be a good idea, but I wonder if it'd be possible to convince enough people to use it.
<beach>
Duuqnd: No it won't, but minor issues like that won't stop me from making suggestions that I think are right.
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<Duuqnd>
I do think that it'd be a good idea to try though, since spelling is probably the most confusing part of Swedish.
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<Duuqnd>
Swedish is my native language, yet I still have problems with it rather frequently.
<beach>
Yes, and the reasons that people have against such reforms don't hold water.
<Duuqnd>
The only problem is getting people to accept it.
<Cymew>
The spelling of French is way more confusing than the spelling of Swedish.
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<beach>
French (the official language of my current home) is pretty bad too.
<beach>
Cymew: Indeed.
<Duuqnd>
I don't know any French, but it does seem quite strange from what I've seen.
<beach>
Almost as bad as English.
<beach>
But it's off topic.
<Cymew>
Indeed.
<Duuqnd>
Woops. I kind of forgot this was #lisp.
<Cymew>
Interesting list of suggested projects. I had not seen that before.
<Duuqnd>
That "Lisp Operating System" article is really interesting too.
<beach>
Cymew: That's part of the reason I showed it again. :)
<Cymew>
I would have thought there was a pdf library already written by someone.
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<beach>
Cymew: Marc Battyani did some work, but not the kind I am looking for.
<beach>
And I think his stuff bitrotted.
<Duuqnd>
PDFs can get quite complicated sometimes.
<Duuqnd>
I find it kind of shocking how few PDF readers there are that can properly fill out forms.
* jackdaniel
quietly hints, that if you don't want to work alone on this or that project, McCLIM is looking for contributors
<Cymew>
Interestingly enough "Editor for Common Lisp code" sounds so obvious, and still it shows up often in wishlists and suchlike.
<beach>
Cymew: "obvious"?
<Cymew>
Yeah, I mean you need an editor to write code, so it should be the first thing to do, right?
<Cymew>
So... it should already be done...
<Cymew>
But it isn't-
<Shinmera>
you need an os to run your program, therefore you should write an os?
<Cymew>
That I find interesting.
<Shinmera>
what kinda logic is that
<Duuqnd>
Speaking of editors, I feel like "Climacs" isn't exactly a good name for a serious project.
<aeth>
Cymew: The problem is that GNU Emacs is good enough... I mean, it's awful, but it's good enough.
<Cymew>
Shinmera: Yeah, kind of the same thing.
<Shinmera>
Cymew: I'm saying it's absurd.
<Cymew>
People do talk about a lisp OS often, but it never seem to happen.
<beach>
Cymew: It is easy to do something simple and not very useful, but difficult to do something truly great.
<Duuqnd>
Cymew: I saw a Lisp OS recently. I don't remember what it was called though.
<Cymew>
beach: Might be that.
<Duuqnd>
I wasn't very useful though.
<Cymew>
Duuqnd: Mezzano?
<aeth>
Duuqnd: probably mezzano
<Duuqnd>
Yeah, that's the one.
<Cymew>
aeth: That probably tells us something. Not sure what. ;)
<beach>
Cymew: The plan for Second Climacs is to do syntactic and semantic analysis at typing speed.
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<beach>
I think I know how to do it.
<Cymew>
Sounds ambitious.
<Cymew>
Hmm? Was that the correct spelling?
<beach>
That's the idea, yes.
<Duuqnd>
beach: I think "Climacs" might not be the best name... I mean, the name isn't bad, but it'll be hard to get people to take it seriously.
<Cymew>
It will get noted.
<Cymew>
..or "noticed".
<beach>
Duuqnd: This has been discussed. I have made up my mind.
<mfiano2>
I agree. For something so innovative, I wouldn't piggy-back off of another editor's name.
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<Duuqnd>
mfiano2: I mean, that's not exactly what I was thinking, but that too.
<Cymew>
I am reminded of the conversations in the dlang community. So many people seem to crave so odd things in an editor. I have been using emacs for so long I can't see why it is not enough. I realize I am blind, but am in something of a different paradigm.
* Cymew
remebers a RPG paper about incommensurability
<beach>
Cymew: For editing Common Lisp code, Emacs is OK, but not great.
<Duuqnd>
beach: It's great compared to most alternatives.
<Duuqnd>
Kind of like GNU/Linux. "It's not good, it's just the best."
<Cymew>
Maybe that's it.
<beach>
Duuqnd: Right, we don't really have a good editor for Common Lisp code. Nor a debugger, nor ...
<mfiano2>
There are plugins to do syntactic and semantic analysis server-side with deep learning in real time, but this is something different and exciting. Been keeping an eye on it for years.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Sadly "good enough is the enemy of what is actually needed" is not as frequently uttered as "perfect is the enemy of good".
<Cymew>
I think my usage is so unsofisticated I would not know how to use a good CL editor!
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<no-defun-allowed>
Deep learning? Is that how C people think interactive development works?
<beach>
Cymew: Oh, yes you would. :)
<Cymew>
I would love to try a fully operational battlestation like Climacs!
<Cymew>
BTW, I like the name.
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<Duuqnd>
no-defun-allowed: Deep learning neural network AI block-chain static analysis
<beach>
Cymew: Think syntax highlighting based on semantics rather than regular-expression parsing.
<Cymew>
Well, I will try it when it's available.:)
<beach>
Great.
<beach>
The dynamic nature of Common Lisp makes the task much harder than for static languages.
<Cymew>
Yeah, that much is very clear.
<beach>
Because what has been learned over time can be altered with a custom reader macro.
<beach>
That is why we need READ and COMPILE-FILE to analyze the buffer at typing speed.
<Cymew>
Was there any functionality in the old editors like Zwei that would ne interesting to resurrect? I have only glanced at the code briefly?
<beach>
That sounds likely. On the other hand, computers are way more powerful now than was the case of the Lisp machine.
<beach>
So we can be more ambitious no.w
<Duuqnd>
Sometimes I wonder how the tech industry would look if Lisp Machines became the norm.
<shka__>
Nowdays we can have some pretty SF stuff in the editor.
<shka__>
For instance, it would be possible to have structural search to find expressions in the code.
<shka__>
even fuzzy match
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<beach>
How would that work, and why wold it do a better job than READ?
<beach>
shka__: Oh, I think I misunderstood what you meant. Sorry!
<beach>
scymtym: Very impressive looking.
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<scymtym>
beach: thanks. it was inspired by an emacs lisp rewriting system presented at a recent ELS
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<beach>
Ah, OK.
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<shka__>
scymtym: analyzing…
<shka__>
scymtym: this looks like a good example
<shka__>
for extra spicy example, one can imagine function that will return function bodies that are similar to other function using SVR metric
<shka__>
sorted with the distance
<shka__>
it would be a computationally intensive task, but with current hardware it is possible
<lieven>
Kent Pitman's "what was lost" post is 20 years old and these functionalities haven't been regained yet
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<beach>
But we are working on it.
<beach>
... at least some of us.
<lieven>
it wasn't meant as a critique. I'm sorry if it came over as such.
<lieven>
I was merely reacting to the view that it is hardware performance that is/was keeping us
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<beach>
No, what is keeping us is just lack of manpower.
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<beach>
Part of the problem, of course, is that many people are convinced that our current tools are absolutely fantastic.
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<Cymew>
I might add my former comments are from the perspective of a grumpy old man, knowing his limitations. ;)
<Cymew>
...i.e. about emacs.
<jackdaniel>
emacs is, well, pretty annoying
<lieven>
and part of the problem is that the goalposts are continuously shifting. Pike hit it with his also 20 year old remark that systems software is irrelevant. In order to have a functional desktop experience you need so many huge standards implemented that it's not feasible to do them from scratch and using existing implementations ties you to the current state of the art
<beach>
lieven: Yes, I read the slides of that talk. Very pertinent.
<lieven>
for example the remark here earlier that so few pdf viewers do a good job with forms. to do forms properly you need to have a full ecmascript implementation in your viewer.
<jackdaniel>
I think that tells something about pdf specification
<beach>
Wow.
<Duuqnd>
Welcome to the future!
<Duuqnd>
Putting garbage languages into document formats! Truly, we live in the best timeline.
<Cymew>
I'm not that surprised. Explains a lot.
<lieven>
since acrobat stopped developing acroread for linux/unix, there is no pdf viewer that supports the 1.7 version of the PDF spec for these platforms
<beach>
One year, my (admittedly small) family actually had to go buy a Windows computer to do her US taxes because of that. Now, they have a website for it.
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<lieven>
yeah a friend of mine had to go look for a windows computer to use for a visum application in a pdf+forms format
<jackdaniel>
"PDF 1.7 (...) ISO 32000-1, includes some proprietary technologies defined only by adobe"
<jackdaniel>
I'm not sure how that counts as an open standard
<beach>
Very sad state of some things.
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<lieven>
jackdaniel: it may not count as an open standard but it is needed for a common desktop experience. likewise video codecs, drm incluced, etc
<jackdaniel>
"PDF 2.0 (newest standard) does not inlcude any proprietary technologies as normative references", so we have at least that
<lieven>
yeah and the bureaucracy that just send you one of those things will be hugely cooperative if you complain
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<lieven>
last year there was a big ruckus in my country because tax professionals had to have a microsoft account to get access to the new tax legislation on an official government site
<Duuqnd>
Another example of this sort of thing is governments providing land border maps in a proprietary AutoCAD format.
<jackdaniel>
I think we should move that to lispcafe
<jackdaniel>
it got offtopic with time (my fault admittedly)
<aeth>
we should specify the border between #lisp and #lispcafe in a proprietary AutoCAD format.
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<lieven>
lol
<Cymew>
:)
<Cymew>
Is that KMP post archived somewhere? I can't seem to access it from work.
<Cymew>
That sure is KMP anyway. He keeps typing until he has exhaused a topic. ;)
<Cymew>
Duuqnd: Thanks.
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* Cymew
took a look at the AutoCAD map and went off to #lispcafe with KMP
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<shka__>
scymtym: this pattern matching thing
<shka__>
it is part of some application?
<scymtym>
shka__: no, i just wanted to try and make something like the emacs lisp thing using our libraries (eclector, mcclim, etc.)
<shka__>
well, this looks like it has a potential
<shka__>
and a lot of it in fact
<shka__>
do you intend to work on this? can I help? I would want to learn clim but it is much easier when you are working with someone that knows stuff
<scymtym>
shka__: i mainly work on the underlying libraries. in this case eclector, the pattern matcher and the s-expression syntax library. regarding clim, i enjoy using it and recommend it, but it is not at the core of the prototype in the screenshot
<shka__>
ok
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<jackdaniel>
a new name for a macro style often found in the wild: dimwit(?) -- do I mean what I tell(?)
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<phoe>
minion: memo for pfdietz: the comments at https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52 are good and outline errors in my reasoning. We're back to the drawing board, except now I wonder if commenting out the ANSI-TESTs that test the LOOP FINALLY variable values wouldn't be the best option if their value is to be treated as undefined.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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<Bike>
yesterday pfdietz and shinmera and some other people were talking about utf8 strings in lisp, so i tried implementing them https://github.com/Bike/utf8string
<Bike>
that is, they're lisp sequences stored as utf8 encoded strings, so they're more compact than the utf32 the implementation strings probably are
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<Shinmera>
Nice
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<phoe>
is this using the extensible sequences protocol?
<phoe>
well damn, now I have a good reason to implement those in ccl
<Shinmera>
Bike: t-e-s offers a fallback implementation of the protocol on implementations that do not natively support it, which may or may not be better depending on your POV.
<Shinmera>
Lacks a test suite right now, though.
<Bike>
fallb... ohhh i see what you mean
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<Bike>
but then the standard functions won't use it, right?
<Shinmera>
Yes, you have to use the sequence functions from there.
<Bike>
right, ok.
<Bike>
i only tested on sbcl
<Shinmera>
t-e-s hasn't been tested anywhere except SBCL either (both with and without fallback).
<Bike>
you also need code-char and char-code to work with codepoints, and for the implementation to have unicode characters to begin with
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<mfiano>
Bike: Nice, I checked out that project yesterday when it was pushed and it's very cool. I also think you trumped sjl with swearing in comments :)
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<gendl>
Hi, how would I make a regexp with cl-ppcre to match any number of "../" ?
<dlowe>
I like how you snuck a regex question into the lisp channel
<dlowe>
The regex you want is probably (?:\.\./)+
<dlowe>
don't forget to escape the \ if you stuff it into a string
<dlowe>
or use cl-interpol which has nice regex strings
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<aeth>
dlowe: every regex is different so...
<gendl>
dlowe: thanks! That works, with extra "\" in front of each "\" as you say... What's the ?: at the beginning for?
<dlowe>
it groups without capturing
<gendl>
dlowe: ok - so it will also work with out the ?:, but it's just doing more unneeded work.
<gendl>
sorry if the regex questions were off topic.
<dlowe>
and if you actually want to capture some of it, it will interfere
<fiddlerwoaroof>
gendl: cl-ppcre also supports a s-expression regex syntax that might be more intuitive
<gendl>
fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, I'll have to check that out.