jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<lxbarbosa> haha, my script just surpassed >1k :D
<Josh_2> huh?
<lxbarbosa> my first 1k
<lxbarbosa> :D
<Josh_2> 1k sloc?
<lxbarbosa> yep
<Josh_2> oh right cool :)
<lxbarbosa> Josh_2: just a bunch of one-trick pony functions :D
<lxbarbosa> o/
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<lxbarbosa> pylint: [too-many-lines] Too many lines in module (1014/1000)
* no-defun-allowed wonders how pylint would not choke on a Lisp script
<lxbarbosa> no-defun-allowed: lol wrong room again :D
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<no-defun-allowed> But if you have a project that's longer than 10kloc, you probably have multiple projects.
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<no-defun-allowed> And a 1kloc "script" is probably a bit long.
<kirkwood> minion: registration, please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=c0f3b8b5 will be valid until 04:30 UTC.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2> Mornin beach
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<Fare> good night everyone
<Fare> I eventually implemented that prototype object system I wanted to write, in a hundred lines of code — in Gerbil Scheme, not Common Lisp, though.
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<phoe> morniiiing
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<Josh_2> Mornin
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<phoe> OK. One ansi-test PR done...
<ck_> phoe: does it return 5 or 6?
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<phoe> ck_: why do you have to start with the hard question
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<phoe> the current tl;dr is - the value is undefined since the spec contradicts itself in the wording
<Shinmera> Finally a real reason to fund another committee
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* phoe grabs his wallet while thinking how much would it cost to fund the ANSI X3J13-2 committee to find an answer whether it should return 5 or 6
<Shinmera> If you can call up Guy Steele maybe not that much.
<ralt> depends what you want to put in it
<_death> Just DO it
<phoe> okay let's settle this by consensus
<ralt> threads, sockets, regex, etc? probably not much. return 5 or 6? better ask elon musk for help
<phoe> (loop for i from 1 to 5 finally (return i))
<antoszka> phoe: the answer is, obviously, 42.
<phoe> ; → 5½
<antoszka> As another committee found out.
<Shinmera> antoszka: that's the answer to a different question.
<antoszka> Maybe.
<ralt> that different question is a superset of all the other questions though
<antoszka> T
<_death> (do ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((> i 5) i)) ;; easy to tell what the result should be
<phoe> ;; This post was made by the DO gang
<Josh_2> do is good stuff
<jackdaniel> don't-do-do sounds stupid, so I'd settle on do-do
<Josh_2> phoe: well sbcl returns 6, so should probably rely on that?
<jackdaniel> (music theme intensifies)
<Josh_2> although that is pretty strange xD
<ck_> phoe: I think finally should signal a condition. That way, every user can provide the value they like best.
<jackdaniel> Josh_2: sbcl is just yet another implementation of common lisp (i.e its behavior is not normative - in practice though it usually is)
<ck_> alternatively, we could fork from the lisp-2 we currently have into lisp-5 and lisp-6 and go our seperate ways
<phoe> (defmacro don (x &body body) (declare (ignore x)) `(do ,&body))
<phoe> (don't ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((> i 5) i))
<Josh_2> yes I agree, however surely It's best to just implement the behaviour the majority of other implementors have?
<Josh_2> that way then code is more portable
<jackdaniel> Josh_2: portable code should never depend on value of i in finally clause
<Josh_2> yes
<Josh_2> I agree
<jackdaniel> so if anything depends on it then it can't be more or less portable
<Josh_2> but if that is the case it doesn't matter
<Josh_2> just signal an error
<phoe> ...I should not have mentioned that
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<Josh_2> or just return 6 ;)
<jackdaniel> I believe that's what beach's WSCL implementation would do
<phoe> I should have made that MR silently rather than remark about it here
<jackdaniel> (that is, signal the error)
<phoe> the discussion never ends
<jackdaniel> people will get tired eventually and stop discussing until the next mention
<jackdaniel> no worries
<phoe> I need to set up an IRC bot that connects to #lisp once every 1-4 weeks and asks "hey folks why does this loop form return 6"
<Josh_2> xD
<phoe> yes, this is exactly how I will get banned from this channel
<Shinmera> what a hill to die on
<phoe> memento mori, Shinmera, memento mori
<phoe> it is good to try and plan in advance
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<ck_> what will you do with your time afterwards?
<Shinmera> I still have hopes he'll help me out with Alloy or something.
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<phoe> ...I also need to set up an IRC bot that connects to #shirakumo once every 1-4 weeks and asks "hey folks why does this loop form return 6"
<Shinmera> only a couple of lines with Maiden, that.
<phoe> deal
<_death> you could implement it as (loop for week from 1 to 4 finally (return week))
<phoe> (incf _death)
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<_death> (defmacro phoebot (form) `(once-every (weeks #1=,form) (message "Hey guys, why does ~S return ~S?" ',form #1#)))
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<_death> (though that still evaluates FORM twice..)
<phoe> you need to use ONCE-ONLY along with ONCE-EVERY
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<phoe> I have a question about ANSI-TEST DEFSETF.7A https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1546#1546
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<phoe> Currently CCL fails this test with "Undefined function (SETF ACCESS-FN) called with arguments (2 1)."
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<pjb> phoe: does deftest maintain the toplevelness of the tested form?
<phoe> I have no idea. This is one of my suspect, along with some package shenanigans that might be going on.
<pjb> phoe: the last paragraph of clhs defsetf description is conditional, it applies only "If a defsetf form appears as a top level form".
<phoe> If I call the PROGN manually, then it returns (1 2 3) as it is supposed to.
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<phoe> So the test itself should pass, but it instead fails.
<pjb> See macroexpand the deftest to check.
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<phoe> (REGRESSION-TEST::ADD-ENTRY (REGRESSION-TEST::MAKE-ENTRY :PEND T :NAME 'DEFSETF.7A :PROPS 'NIL :FORM '(PROGN (DEFSETF ACCESS-FN (X) (VAL-1 VAL-2) (LIST* 'LIST (LIST* X (LIST* VAL-1 (LIST VAL-2))))) (EVAL (READ-FROM-STRING "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))"))) :VALS '((1 2 3))))
<phoe> That doesn't help me much just yet.
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<phoe> I need to figure out how the entries are executed.
<pjb> Then we'd have to see how this is used.
<pjb> Yes.
<phoe> So this calls FUNCALL with COMPILE (line 258), or EVAL (lines 266 and 269).
<pjb> When *compile-test* it puts the form in a lambda expression, so it won't keep toplevelness.
<pjb> When *expand-eval* it uses expanded-eval.
<phoe> > If a defsetf form appears as a top level form, the compiler must make the setf expander available so that it may be used to expand calls to setf later on in the file.
<pjb> Only in the last case, it uses EVAL, which should keep toplevelness.
<phoe> One second though. Let's take a look at the test form again.
<phoe> DEFSETF in line 3 is executed as a non-top-level form.
<pjb> 1- ansi-test should preserve toplevelness in all cases. 2- however, it would be nice if the implementation would do something nice even when defsetf (and other similar forms) are not used in toplevel.
<phoe> Then a form is EVAL'd.
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<phoe> By the time that EVAL is reached, (SETF ACCESS-FN) should be available, even if DEFSETF wasn't toplevel.
<pjb> Try: (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))")))
<phoe> This is the way I understand it.
<pjb> or ((lambda () (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))")))))
<phoe> It works at toplevel, (1 2 3).
<phoe> The latter works, too.
<pjb> and ((lambda () (progn (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () (defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))"))))) works too, so I don't see why the test fails.
<pjb> What version are you testing? Here "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.4-4-gd9740256) Darwinx8664"
<phoe> Most recent version off my fork.
<phoe> My fork doesn't differ all that much from master though.
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<phoe> ...wait a second though
<phoe> the symbols in the form are DEFSETF CL-TEST::ACCESS-FN
<phoe> but the function in question is SETF ACCESS-FN
<pjb> So it was the second hypothesis…
<phoe> And also DEFSETF X does not create the #'(SETF X) function
<pjb> It doesn't have to.
<phoe> right
<phoe> actually why the hell does that form use READ-FROM-STRING
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<phoe> why cannot it simply (eval '(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3)))
<pjb> precisely to avoid the error you got.
<phoe> well then it avoids it quite poorly
<pjb> Yes, eval setf should do. The setf alone would have given the error.
<phoe> no no
<phoe> EVAL READ-FROM-STRING is redundant
<phoe> EVAL would be enough
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<pjb> (compile nil '(lambda () (progn (defsetf access-fn4 (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2)) (setf (access-fn4 1) (values 2 3))))) -> ;Compiler warnings : In an anonymous lambda form: Undefined function (setf access-fn4)
<phoe> but you use COMPILE, I use EVAL
<pjb> But with (compile nil '(lambda () (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn5 (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))) (eval '(setf (access-fn5 1) (values 2 3)))))) it's ok.
<pjb> So indeed, we should replicate the behavior load, which means evaluating each toplevel form in turn.
<phoe> So EVAL DEFSETF and then EVAL SETF, correct?
<pjb> Yes.
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<pjb> Then you can use a progn form containing this sequence of eval as well in a compile or in an eval.
<pfdietz> (arrives to see ansi-test mentioned)
<phoe> pfdietz: actually I didn't mention you yourself
<pfdietz> :)
<phoe> I'm just throwing stuff at the repository and waiting for jd to wake up and curse me in his mind
<phoe> And I'm also throwing merge requests so the amount of cursing is as small as possible
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<easye> The mailing lists hosted @common-lisp.net had not been delivering messages since October 26th. We restarted the service, and the backlog of messages has been injected into SMTP over the last hour. We apologize for the inconvenience.
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<davd33> Hello there!
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<davd33> Is there some people living here? :)
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<Josh_2> yes
<davd33> Ok! good to know!
<phoe> some
<phadthai> I don't live here, but... hello :)
<davd33> Hello ^^
<dlowe> you could live here
<phoe> (some #'alivep (irc-channel "#lisp")) ;=> T
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<phoe> heyyy, what's up
<davd33> (remove-if-not #'alivep (irc-channel "#lisp"))
<davd33> Just hacking some CL for the Github Game off.
<phoe> does #lispgames know?
<davd33> No Oo
<phoe> they would be interested methinks
<phoe> go tell em
<davd33> I'll drop some message there
<davd33> Otherwise, what do you hack in CL these days?
<phoe> this post is literally the answer to your question
<phoe> mostly because it is literally your question
<dlowe> I wrote a arithmetic game for my kid
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<davd33> phoe: xD thanks
<davd33> dlowe: what kind of game?
<ck_> easye: aha! so that's what that was about. thanks for the information.
<dlowe> it's actually super bare-bones, intentionally so
<dlowe> the student gets a stimulating reward when they get the problem right, nothing if they get it wrong
<dlowe> and they have to sit there for five seconds doing nothing
<dlowe> it measures the amount of time it took for them to answer and uses it as a proxy (when there's a correct answer) for being learned
<dlowe> and schedules the question to come again at a greater interval the more that the student has learned the fact
<dlowe> They have to spend five minutes, and if they get through all the scheduled questions, they get new questions, which steadily increase in difficulty
<dlowe> I'd share it but it doesn't have an account system or anything so anyone looking at it would screw with the stats
<dlowe> built with hunchentoot and cl-json
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<Xach> theory y algebra
<davd33> Sounds cool, I actually had a similar project two years ago, but for German language training. Your game might work for anything that someone would want to learn/train isn't it?
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<dlowe> Xach: I don't follow?
<Xach> dlowe: flashback to kenny tilton's frequently-promoted math tutor system
<dlowe> davd33: yeah, I mean, it's just spaced repetition applied to arithmetic, but the rewards are carefully designed
<dlowe> we were trying out other apps and stuff and they all get that stuff wrong
<dlowe> with either distracting stimulation or misleading stimulation
<dlowe> It's now "Tilton's Algebra" apparently http://tiltontec.com/
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<ck_> I thought the url was socialalgebra.com
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<dlowe> well now apparently it's http://www.tiltonsalgebra.com/
<davd33> What do you have to study in order to under to understand how to build your program: psychology ... ? What do you base your algorithm on?
<dlowe> I have a background specifically in knowledge and skills acquisition
<dlowe> from a cognitive psych standpoint
<dlowe> which is how I got into CL, incidentally
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<sugarwren> psych got you into CL?
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<sugarwren> psych people I know (knew, rather) were all about SPSS or R
<dlowe> cognitive psych has a lot of computer modeling, and all the papers are in CL, and not being programmers, they'll be damned if they learn more than one language
<dlowe> and their programs are universally terrible (because not programmers)
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<dlowe> I got hired in as a tech
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<LdBeth> dlowe: do you know PLATO project
<dlowe> LdBeth: do you have an url for disambiguation?
<dlowe> unfortunately there are a lot of Plato projects
<dlowe> okay, yeah, I'm aware of it.
<LdBeth> Have you had a chance using that system? If so what’s your opinion about it?
<dlowe> I haven't done it, but I do know there are readily-available free emulators
<LdBeth> Ah, yes
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<shka_> yay
<shka_> ABCL will get update! :D
<shka_> that bear yet lives
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<pfdietz> bearly?
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<jasom> dlowe: that's interesting because my daugher would just guess the answer repeatedly until she got enough right for the reward under a typical online learning system
<jasom> dlowe: the only one we found that worked is one for which the name is escaping me, but you need to get all questions right on the quiz or it makes you listen to the entire lesson again. That was annoying enough to get her to not guess.
<jasom> she got through her two days of standardized testing in 1 hour because she discovered that if you get N problems wrong in a row, it moves on to the next subject, and just answered everything wrong...
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<Xach> `.
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<Demosthenex> is there a way to make a code block that is only evaluated in slime?
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<phoe> Demosthenex: what do you mean, only evaluated in slime?
<phoe> Only evaluated when there is an active slime connection?
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<Lycurgus> make it emacs lisp is one way
<Demosthenex> phoe: yes, so i'm testing something and i need to db connection always created in slime, but otherwise the compiled version handles it differently
<Demosthenex> i was hoping i could wrap a code block so it'd only be evaluated when slime-eval-buffer was called
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<jasom> Demosthenex: #+swank ought to do it
<jasom> Demosthenex: if you happen to load swank, then it will be skipped, but if swank is only loaded when you are debugging that should work
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<jeosol> good morning
<oni-on-ion> hello
<jeosol> doing ok. been a while.
<jeosol> I wanted to bounce some code improvement ideas here to see what other suggestions. The aim is to reduce storage
<jeosol> I am modeling some anisotrophy effect (3D property varying in directions X,Y,Z) so I have to store large matrices (size depends on the problem). I have functions get_propx(i,j,k), that returns the value of a property in 3D array (similarly for y and z).
<jeosol> I store the large matrices in global variables *X*, *Y*, *Z*. Occasionally, *Y* and *Z* are multiples of *X* and I would like to only store *X* which should be fine. get_prop.. functions are generated by a macro
<jeosol> I was thinking having to write get_propy and get_propz differently and have them check some simple booleans (i.e., for the copy case, if so, read up the value from X, and multiply by scalar needed). Is there a better way of doing this
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