jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<pfdietz> In place of writing custom versions of macros like COND or CASE, one can modify them on the fly using *MACROEXPAND-HOOK*.
<minion> pfdietz, memo from phoe: the comments at https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52 are good and outline errors in my reasoning. We're back to the drawing board, except now I wonder if commenting out the ANSI-TESTs that test the LOOP FINALLY variable values wouldn't be the best option if their value is to be treated as undefined.
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<Josh_2> https://imgur.com/lmULrif.png does that error output suggest a problem with fast-io?
<no-defun-allowed> Maybe. I would peep into the fast-websocket.compose:compose-frame sources since it is given an awful lot of NILs too, and I imagine one is supposed to be the data sent or something like that.
<Bike> did you pass a simple vector instead of a byte vector?
<Bike> to... something
<no-defun-allowed> I think the issue is that fast-write-sequence was given NIL, which is an odd choice for a sequence to write.
<Bike> oh. yeah. nevermind me
<Bike> i would guess the problem is at a higher level than fast io, though
<Bike> something's getting passed something wrong
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<Josh_2> Bike: I didn't pass nuffin
<Bike> surely you called a function at some point.
<Josh_2> Well I obviously did
<Bike> and probably passed it some arguments
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, anything above send-identify could be messing up. Also a good excuse to (ql:update-all-dists) but I don't know if anything important has been updated recently.
<Josh_2> But Im using websockets and I think that is where the problem comes from
<Josh_2> no-defun-allowed: I will try that
<Bike> without seeing the higher level calls it's hard to guess
<no-defun-allowed> Actually, you probably don't need to, websocket-driver hasn't updated since then.
<Josh_2> oof
<no-defun-allowed> My next best guess is that the connection dropped?
<Josh_2> Nope
<Josh_2> It's possible but everytime this happens
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<Josh_2> okay fixed it
<no-defun-allowed> What's the most precise method of timing execution of a function? i-t-u-p-s looks too small.
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<buffergn0me> no-defun-allowed: CCL has both rdtsc and clock_gettime. Does not look like SBCL does
<no-defun-allowed> Right. I don't know how local-time gets the time, but it goes down to nanoseconds which will suffice.
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<fe[nl]ix> no-defun-allowed: (iolib/syscalls:clock-gettime iolib/syscalls:clock-realtime)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<Shinmera> no-defun-allowed: SBCL has sb-ext:get-time-of-day on non-windowsoids.
<no-defun-allowed> That's good to know too.
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<Shinmera> Actually it also works on windows, I forgot
<Shinmera> Just uses the non-posix api underneath
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<_Fremen_> hello everyone
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<_Fremen_> is lisp really the most powerful programming language?
<surrounder> no
<beach> Hello _Fremen_.
<beach> _Fremen_: The question is meaningless since we have no single measure for "power" of a programming language.
<_Fremen_> beach: hmm, I read a blog post years ago that supported this view.
<Shinmera> _Fremen_: It is if you want it to be
<pjb> The most powerful programming language is the one that is connected to nuclear missiles, that you can launch with (launch-missile (first (missile-list)) :target (coordinates _Fremen_)).
<Shinmera> a lot of people want it to be, so a lot of blog posts go around saying so.
<pjb> It's probably FORTRAN.
<_Fremen_> how about this view? "lisp is the latin of programming languages, it may not help you talk to more people but it will help you be better at languages"
<_Fremen_> I am sorry this is all subjective questions
<beach> _Fremen_: There is a #lispcafe channel for that kind of stuff. Here, we stick to discussions about Common Lisp.
<heisig> _Fremen_: Here is my take: A language can only ever be so powerful as the programmer that uses it. Lisp makes people better programmers. And it doesn't constrain good programmers. So that's something.
<_Fremen_> beach: ok I will check it out :).
<_Fremen_> thanks for your time
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<pjb> _Fremen_: perligata is the latin of programming languages. Not that you cannot do the same in Lisp, with reader macros, but it's kind of antagonistic to lisp.
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<Shinmera> I'm finally making a bit more progress with Alloy again. Put together a simple image viewer demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bENuJoXtHi4
<Shinmera> I also started writing high-level documentation recently, so hopefully that'll be enough to convince some other people to work on it as well. https://shirakumo.github.io/alloy
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<shka__> Shinmera: could use FAQ
<shka__> for instance: "why alloy?"
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<Shinmera> shka__: I don't think I've heard enough questions yet for any of them to be considered frequent
<flip214> easye: will you be at sbcl20?
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<flip214> UIOP had a spawn-program function, is that gone again? Or just not yet in QL, and I had the git version in use before?
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<Shinmera> it's launch-program
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<flip214> ah, right. thanks!
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<hjudt> Shinmera: if you define :fix on the parent test in parachute, do the child tests inherit this? if yes, how exactly would it work?
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<Shinmera> hjudt: let me check the source.
<Shinmera> hjudt: Fixtures are only applied for the body test itself, not its children.
<Shinmera> What is the behaviour you would like to have?
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<hjudt> actually it was just for clarification. could have been that if i define fixtures for the parent test that it will also be applied to the body of the children.
<hjudt> but that would probably not be such a good idea anyway.
<Shinmera> yeah, I realise that that's ambiguous. I'll have a look through the docs to see if I can clarify it somewhere.
<hjudt> because some tests might not need it
<Shinmera> Colleen: look up parachute test and result evaluation
<Shinmera> "The default evaluation procedure for a test itself is to simply call all the functions in the `tests` list in a `with-fixtures` environment."
<Shinmera> I suppose that kind of states this.
<hjudt> ah ok thanks
<hjudt> maybe could you also clarify what you mean with this: "You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string. Using with-fixtures, this can also be done locally. It expects an evaluated list of fixtures."
<Shinmera> I'll add a clarifying note.
<Shinmera> What part is unclear?
<hjudt> in the example, where are you giving it a package designator as a keyword?
<hjudt> ah sorry, i missed that that is a list ;-)
<Shinmera> Ah, I only exemplify he latter part, not the package.
<hjudt> hm. actually, no it is not clear. what exactly do you mean with this sentence?
<Shinmera> Which sentence
<hjudt> ""You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string."
<hjudt> would it lock the complete package?
<hjudt> i mean all symbols in this package?
<hjudt> e.g. if i wrote :quicklisp, it would fix all symbols in the quicklisp package?
<Shinmera> yes
<hjudt> so i can simply use the package designator to protect the package against manipulation instead of listing each single symbol that i fear might be changed.
<Shinmera> That's the idea
<Shinmera> The way it's implemented might need to be changed though, now that I think about it
<Shinmera> since it protects /all accessible symbols/, not just external ones
<Shinmera> which might trigger package locks.
<hjudt> using package designators would make the tests less vulnerable to implementation changes and perhaps less fragile in regard to such changes.
<Shinmera> Okey, I pushed a new documentation page. Hopefully the wording is clearer now.
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<hjudt> yes, thanks
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<Shinmera> If you run into problems with the current package fixtures, let me know.
<Shinmera> I haven't used them myself, so they're not, uh, tested well
<hjudt> so far i have only tested fixing special variables using :fix. from my experience this worked good.
<hjudt> it is a nice way to do tdd
<hjudt> i still wonder whether it is better to specify single symbols instead of everything in the package.
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<ym> Is there X Server implementation? Found only mention on ycombinator with broken link to github (repo deleted, IIUC).
<ym> And seems like it's not X server.
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<beach> Written by nyef, but he no longer hangs out here I think.
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<ym> Nice. Thanks.
<beach> Sure.
<dlowe> huh. last seen March 2017
<dlowe> Last common-lisp.net activity Nov 2017
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<beach> He used to hang out in #clim.
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<dlowe> March 2018
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<beach> Right.
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<mouseghost> so im using sbcl and (cons 1 2) works but (1 . 2) doesn't seem to work
<mouseghost> why?
<mouseghost> is it something to be expected?
<mouseghost> debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread hm
<beach> mouseghost: Are you trying to evaluate (1 . 2)?
<beach> That is not a valid form.
<mouseghost> beach, i just write it in repl
<beach> Try (quote (1 . 2)) or '(1 . 2).
<mouseghost> works, thanks!
<mouseghost> though... why is that? beach
<Xach> mouseghost: that's how the evaluation rules work
<mouseghost> hm
<beach> (cons 1 2) is a form that, when evaluated, returns a CONS cell with 1 in the CAR slot and 2 in the CDR slot.
<Xach> mouseghost: when the evaluator is presented with a cons, it looks at the first thing and decides how to treat the rest of the thing.
<mouseghost> beach, and (1 . 2) is just that?
<Xach> a number isn't a valid first thing
<beach> That's a CONS cell, yes.
<beach> You are trying to evaluate that CONS cell, but it is not in itself a valid expression to evaluate.
<mouseghost> ahm
<mouseghost> do you perhaps have some examples of how that would eval.? Xach
<mouseghost> if it was a proper first thing
<Xach> mouseghost: how what would eval?
<Xach> a number?
<beach> clhs 3.1.2.1.2
<beach> mouseghost: Check that link.
<mouseghost> oh huh
<mouseghost> so basically s-expressions are cons?
<beach> Not always. They can be atomic as well.
<beach> 234 is a perfectly good S-expression.
<Xach> atomic is defined as "not a cons", so that covers it
<mouseghost> well or that
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<mouseghost> * (#'two . 2) doesnt work either .w. maybe i misunderstood something
<beach> You did.
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<beach> I think you should read a book on Common Lisp.
<beach> If you already know some programming, try this one:
<beach> minion: Please tell mouseghost about PCL.
<minion> mouseghost: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<mouseghost> ah yes this one
<mouseghost> thanks
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<mouseghost> but yay i did make it work (two . (2))
<Xach> that is equivalent to and more commonly written as (two 2)
<mouseghost> yep i see that's what it returned
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<mouseghost> oh no even more hyperspec
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<pjb> Otherwise, indeed, lisp is nice to the users. If you really want to put parentheses around your function arguments, you can: (sin . (42)) #| --> -0.91652155 |#
<mouseghost> why 42
<mouseghost> oh, is it an answer to the ultimate question?
<pjb> Yes. Also #b101010
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<mouseghost> pjb, i was wondering what does it mean for a minute :D
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<mouseghost> also #x2a :P
<mouseghost> but thats not as pretty
<mouseghost> BUUUT, if a = 0 then a-2=x, no?
<mouseghost> sorry for going offtopic
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<tankf33der> o/
<mouseghost> o/
<dlowe> mouseghost: not on #clschool?
<tankf33der> Parsed 20M nested brackets on PicoLisp, maximum i can do on 8GB laptop. Yeah.
<mouseghost> dlowe, im not autojoined and i needed to ask a question about why doesnt this work so i asked here
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<dlowe> mouseghost: sure, I'm not criticizing, just surprised
<mouseghost> dlowe, im on both now
<LdBeth> rua! #lisp
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<edgar-rft> mouseghost has upgraded to #lisp now :-)
<mouseghost> nah nah nah not yet
<mouseghost> edgar-rft, i dont even use emacs yet so how could i have upgraded?
<LdBeth> u don't have to use emacs to write lisp
<edgar-rft> you only need emacs on #emacs, on #lisp it's sufficient to use lisp :-)
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<pjb> in ccl, we're also limited to the maximum stack depth. I would have expected being able to go over 10 million, or actually, up to filling the RAM with conses, but no, the maximum is close to 8000: (flet ((depth (x) (loop while x sum 1 do (setf x (car x))))) (depth (read-from-string (format nil "~V@{(~}~:*~V@{)~}" 8000 nil)))) #| --> 7999 |#
<pjb> Simply, the parser is recursive, so we are limited by the stack.
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<pfdietz> I've found even in SBCL you don't want to use recursion to go down lists, because of stack space concerns. Going down car recursively isn't so much of a problem.
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<pjb> In (((((…))))) it is.
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<mouseghost> good cus im more of a vim person :E
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<flip214> pjb: you could try to set the ulimit stack size for ccl; new threads should then get a stack that big.
<flip214> mouseghost: for vim I'd suggest to look at either slimv or vlime (both are vim plugins)
<mouseghost> fetched slimv already
<flip214> right
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<mouseghost> oh yeah its so cool :O just that it should be noted that it can have problems with dos endings. i had to change slime.el to unix endings
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<mouseghost> probably cus im using plugin manager
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<jmercouris> if someone were to ask you, why should they learn lisp, what would you say? I know many articles about this topic, I'm interested in short personal answers
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<oni-on-ion> "when we develop our own Lisp, we are essentially on a highly egocentric endeavor: the quest for a language perfect for us and only for us, which may be found only if we gain a deep understanding of our true self, completely disregarding the outside world. Programming Lisp, and in Lisp, is thus a highly introspective journey."
<jmercouris> Not sure if you are being facetious or not, hard to tell over text
<oni-on-ion> "Instead, is more a philosophy of music, even more so a musical process: grabbing musical bits and pieces everywhere, and making a happy melting pot out of those influences, in a way which is specific to each Jazz musician." --- i think these are both from the free article "Lisp, Jazz, and Aikido"
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<LdBeth> The cost of learning a new programming language is trivial —ldbeth
<dra> jmercouris: Facetious answer from me: If they ask why they should, they shouldn't.
<dra> jmercouris: Honest answer from me: To gain perspective.
<jmercouris> dra: what kind of perspective?
<LdBeth> I agree with the point that if they ask why they’re not prepared
<jmercouris> "The cost of truly internalizing a new programming language is non-trivial" -jmercouris
<jmercouris> I think saying that learning a new programming language is trivial is simply false
<LdBeth> It’s just syntax, semantics, and design patterns
<jmercouris> Yeah, and flying to the moon is just physics, gas, and some calculations
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<jmercouris> anything can be trivialized and summed up in a fun little snippet
<oni-on-ion> "moon landing" <- good compression!
<jmercouris> please avoid saying things like that in the future as they can be heavily discouraging to newcomers
<LdBeth> But once you’ve been to the moon it it very likely to Mars
<jmercouris> What does that even mean? that doesn't make any sense as a response to what I've said
<jmercouris> Imagine a new developer starting to learn a language, having some difficult and being told "hey, this is super easy", they'll conclude that it isn't for them and simply give up
<oni-on-ion> about perspective, i think that "gaining" perspective here is not of what kind of perspective. but of gaining more of them (but can be said for learning any new thing)
<LdBeth> Even languages intentionally designed to be hard to use follows some common patterns
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<dra> jmercouris: oni-on-ion is right.
<jmercouris> this is however a very general statement, and not specific to Lisp though
<LdBeth> But it is hard to spot such a pattern by just using one or two languages
<LdBeth> Thus I encourage people to try out different langs, not limited to lisp though
<dra> jmercouris: Also true. I learned Ada for the same reason. But understanding Lisp seemed more rewarding.
<dra> jmercouris: I implemented this in Ada: http://web.sonoma.edu/users/l/luvisi/sl3.c
<dra> And once I understood what I had written I was hooked.
<jmercouris> dra: looks like C to me
<jmercouris> you are saying you made a Lisp in ADA?
<dra> That's because it is.
<dra> A minimal consing Lisp interpreter, yes.
<pjb> Still looks like C, not ada…
<dra> It is. I re-implemented that in Ada.
<pjb> No url, no proof.
<jmercouris> Unfortunately, I have to agree
<dra> Uhm...
<jmercouris> it is okay though, you don't have to prove it
<dra> No, I don't. It's just the story that brought me to Lisp.
<LdBeth> I believe though. But Ada is very strict at pointer casting
<dra> There's part of it...
<jmercouris> aha! :-)
<jmercouris> you know what, as Lispers I think we should make smileys like this :-()
<jmercouris> otherwise we would have an unmatched paren
<shinohai> (:-)
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<no-defun-allowed> :c
<oni-on-ion> half of us do :) the other half do (:
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<jmercouris> c:
<oni-on-ion> or for every sad thing :( a happy thing must be said :)
<dra> :|(| and :|)|
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<oni-on-ion> heh
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