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<yoeljacobsen>
Is there a way to see every bound variables in SLDB with SBCL (like CCL's default behavior when entering a frame)?
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<Shinmera>
yoeljacobsen: If they're not there they have been optimised out. You can try compiling your function with debug 3 (C-u C-c C-c) to retain them, but if they're not used at all they still won't show up even then.
<yoeljacobsen>
Thanks. I'll keep developing with CCL then.
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<nwoob>
Not exactly a lisp question but I want to seek some guidance. I am not a smart person, i can't come up to solutions quickly. So what can I do to become a good programmer like people here
<Shinmera>
Same as with any skill. practise, reflect, correct, repeat.
<nwoob>
So it is possible to counted as a good programmer even when a person is not smart to be start with
<nwoob>
I read all those fairy tales like stuff about lisp that it is magical and will open your mind and all that stuff, maybe I'm looking at it wrong
<Shinmera>
Lisp offers different perspectives on writing programs. These perspectives can be valuable and useful to building good software.
<Shinmera>
There's plenty of languages out there that are very different, and each come with their own perspectives. Ideally you learn them all.
<Shinmera>
Variety is the spice of life, and all that.
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<nwoob>
Hmm ok
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<beach>
nwoob: I often recommend a book entitled "Peak" by Anders Ericsson.
<beach>
nwoob: His research shows that expertise is the result of hard work and not of any sort of intrinsic concept of intelligence.
<nwoob>
beach Book named peak secrets from the new science of expertise ?
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<leedleLoo>
I recently read richard gabriel's paper here where he distinguishes between languages and systems: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf. Is there other reading making this distinction? When folks have asked why I prefer CL, especially over other lisps, I've always pointed out that the environment exposed through lisp/slime is unparalleled and I feel that the paper kinda touches on this
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<seok>
is there a limit on how much memory sbcl will use with portacle setup?
<seok>
it seems to hang when I try to read a large csv
<Lycurgus>
u need to set the heap size it won't grow beyond the configed limit, though the hang being a loop is suspect
<seok>
How do I set it?
<Lycurgus>
command line parm
<seok>
It reads a csv with 41k rows fine
<seok>
but hangs when reading 740k rows csv
<Lycurgus>
dynamic space and stack size
<seok>
Is there a guide somewhere?
<Lycurgus>
man sbcl
<seok>
I do not have understanding of those concepts
<Lycurgus>
those are literally the names of the parms
<leedleLoo>
beach: I'm not sure which section in the wiki is relevant to the lang vs system distinction
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<schweers>
seok: Did you re-evaluate the setq form? Also, did you restart your lisp?
<beach>
leedleLoo: A language is "just" a (usually infinite) set of phrases. By "system", I assume that Gabriel meant some kind of software.
<seok>
Yeah
<seok>
schweers: I edited .emacs and restarted portacle
<schweers>
As I have no idea what portacle does, I’m afraid I can’t tell you where portacle gets its configuration. Does it start an emacs instance?
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<leedleLoo>
beach: Gabriel defined his use of Language and System on page 11 of the paper. I'm still not sure what part of wikipedia is relevant, though
<seok>
schweers, yeah it does. It's just an all in one emacs-slime-sbcl package
<leedleLoo>
_death: I skimmed over the headings and will read later on, but this is great, thanks :)
<_death>
it doesn't go too deep, just the first thing that occurred to me in relation to the RPG paper
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<schweers>
seok: That’s weird. I use the same variable to set my heap size and it works just fine. I don’t use portacle though.
<leedleLoo>
The page seems to focus on the repl-experience instead of just talking about the language itself, and that's what I was interested in. I've always felt that folks comparing CL to other languages/lisps have tended to focus on the language and the not development experience as a whole
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<_death>
leedleLoo: correct.. there are other communities also taking the system view seriously, such as the Smalltalk community..
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<leedleLoo>
_death: I haven't really dabbled in Smalltalk myself, but from what I've read, that's absolutely true. I haven't seen other communities with this viewpoint though, and it's really the main reason why I write CL
<_death>
leedleLoo: I found it interesting that the target paper critiqued by RPG was written by a Smalltalk guy
<thijso>
I'm afraid it'll be a bit like physics in high school... you follow the explanation during class, and think, oh right, I understand that... then, when you need to figure out the stuff yourself during a test, you're totally lost and unable to make the leap from problem to solution...
<thijso>
or is that not a universal thing... ;)
<_death>
well, it also has exercises
<thijso>
Yeah... I'm skipping those on the first read through... have to save something for later, right?
<thijso>
maybe not the smartest decision, though...
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<_death>
it's not a critical one anyway.. before or after matters less as long as at some point you get some practice
<thijso>
yep
<_death>
it's not a race, take it easy :)
<_death>
incidentally, Norvig also wrote the Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years paper
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<drmeister>
Hello lispers
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<moldybits>
hello
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<papachan>
hello
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<beach>
Since many people here hang out neither in #sicl nor in #clim, let me just encourage anyone who regularly uses an inspector during development to try the new version of Clouseau. I am currently using its extension API in order to inspect SICL bootstrapping objects, something that was not possible with the old Clouseau. The new version is a total rewrite (by scymtym) and I thing he did a fantastic job.
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<beach>
s/thing/think/
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<yoeljacobsen>
beach - I couldn't find much info on Clouseau - may you please provide more information on how to try it?
<White_Flame>
would have to reset the counter on each use
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<White_Flame>
an easier-to-write but less memory efficient version would be to map* up a list of data with calculated counters in it, then pass that to FORMAT
<dlowe>
(loop for e in list as i from 0 do (format t "~a. ~a~%" i e)) seems more than reasonable
<White_Flame>
yeah, if the challenge isn't just calling FORMAT once
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<pjb>
Remember that the control string is an argument to format. It can come from a configuration file or a localization file.
<dlowe>
I suspect this isn't a challenge but a newbie making things difficult for themselves
<vms14>
pjb: I've stolen your code
<vms14>
and I'm testing
<vms14>
you gave me this link some time before because I remember trying it
<vms14>
the ftm-index function is very big for just count numbers in a list
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<vms14>
but it's an interesting case and a good example to learn how to create functions for format
<vms14>
so thanks
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<pjb>
vms14: format is also a very big function for just writing an integer and a string.
<pjb>
vms14: try to eliminate all the very big functions. That's a good aim.
<White_Flame>
one of the more interesting output construction facilities I've seen is in Erlang
<vms14>
there is a friend "refactoring" some other's bash scripts
<vms14>
and I thought it could be a good exercise for a noob like me to create a lisp version of this script
<White_Flame>
you build up nested lists of strings (or byte values), and then the final output call loops through, flattening all the output into the stream
<vms14>
atm I just have (show-menu) xD
<White_Flame>
so things like (list "(" contents ")") are easy
<vms14>
but I like it because you give a list of options and a list of functions
<White_Flame>
without having to muck about with what's actually in the contents
<vms14>
and "associates" options with functions by order
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<vms14>
I want to make my friend learn lisp, he is kinda interesting due to emacs & elisp
<vms14>
s/interesting/interested
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<aeth>
the only problem with format is that there isn't a (standard) deformat for parsing so you could (stream "~F" variable) and get a variable out
<aeth>
s/stream/deformat stream/
<Bike>
you should use an actual parser
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<vms14>
where I should put the backquoute, or how I need to do it?
<Bike>
your example doesn't have what is actually returned
<vms14>
yes, it should return the list
<Bike>
the list of what
<vms14>
a list of lambdas created on the fly
<vms14>
I want to make amacro like (code-lambda-list ('(+ 3 2) '(format t "oh")))
<vms14>
and have a list of lambdas created with this code in the body
<vms14>
accepting 0 arguments
<vms14>
but I don't know how to create the macro for that
<Bike>
So writing (code-lambda-list (+ 3 2) (format t "oh")) is equivalent to writing (list (lambda () (+ 3 2)) (lambda () (format t "oh")))?
<vms14>
yes
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<Bike>
That's what you need to convey in your example and think about when you're writing a macro. The expansion.
<Bike>
You're expanding into a call to list, so you'll want `(list ...)
<vms14>
but I need to use ,@ for the body of the lambda
<Bike>
take a step back here.
<vms14>
the problem is I need the @, of every argument
<Bike>
You actually don't need to use the ,@ construct at all, if you think about it.
<Bike>
Don't think in terms of backquoting, think in terms of inputs and outputs. You're just constructing a form.
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<vms14>
I have no idea how
<vms14>
xD
<vms14>
give me a hint
<Bike>
(defmacro code-lambda-list (&rest forms) `(list ,@(loop for form in forms collect `(lambda () ,form)))) is how i'd write it. no ,@ of the forms.
<vms14>
oh
<vms14>
thanks
<Bike>
try to understand how it works
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<vms14>
`(lambda () ,'(+ 3 2)) I'm trying to understand it with this
<vms14>
(funcall (eval `(lambda () ,'(+ 3 2))))
<Bike>
What don't you understand?
<vms14>
the loop macro
<vms14>
I mean
<vms14>
using ,@ with the loopmacro
<vms14>
this is why I'm isolating stuff
<Bike>
,@ doesn't care, it just gets a list.
<Bike>
`(-2 -1 ,@(loop for i below 5 collect i) 6 7)
<Bike>
er, upto i, whatever.
<Bike>
(defmacro code-lambda-list (&rest forms) (cons 'list (loop for form in forms collect (list lambda () form)))) works too.
<Bike>
er, 'lambda
<vms14>
(dolist (oh (list "oh" "my" "cat")) (push `(lambda () ,oh)) flist) why this isn't working
<Bike>
You probably meant (push `(lambda () ,oh) flist)?
<vms14>
oh lol
<Bike>
I get an error like "Too few arguments supplied to a macro or a destructuring-bind form", don't you?
<vms14>
oh so it worked
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<vms14>
this is why I didn't understand why loop worked