jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<adlai> is there a dedicated channel for ECL discussion?
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* adlai is estimating an ETA for ECL issue 305 fixing itself in the absence of external motivation
* adlai /join #ecl #\Newline ;;; please continue this conversation there :)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2> 'mornin beach :)
<loke> hellp beach!
<loke> [04:23]
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<loke> #atariscne
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<loke> channel #atariscne [04:25]
<loke> <ggn> wooohooo get your linux root access before it's patched [04:41]
<loke> <wietze> sup [05:38]
<loke> <wietze> ew [05:39]
<loke> <wietze> makes you wonder how long thats been around
<loke> <ggn> tried it on a super ageing linux install and yup it's there [05:40]
<Josh_2> loke: are you okay?
<loke> <wietze> word [05:42]
<loke> <Harekiet> macos, just do it! [06:01]
<loke> <evl> TOS! Zero sudo bugs there [06:07]
<loke> <ggn> yeeeah boi [06:09]
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<loke> [06:34]
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<loke> #atariscne [06:44]
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<loke> [06:53]
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<loke> #atariscne [08:14]
<loke> <gorgh> hi scenish sceners [08:15]
<loke> <ggn> you still want that greetings list? only 10 zloti! [08:16]
<loke> <gorgh> yes, I would love to have a current list of the most trendy names, I
<loke> take it! [08:19]
<loke> <tat___> you should do a list of entirely invented group names [08:24]
<loke> <gorgh> I just want to be liked like those shader guy
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<ebrasca> loke: ???
<ebrasca> Morning beach!
<loke> Yeah. accidental paste
<loke> sorry about that
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<no-defun-allowed> Should I write (not (find .....)) or (null (find .....))?
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<Shinmera> depends on whether you want to find the null or not find what you're looking for.
<no-defun-allowed> I want to not find what I'm looking for.
<Shinmera> then (not (find ..))
<no-defun-allowed> And what I'm looking for won't ever be NIL.
<Shinmera> right, cause find won't distinguish that case anyway
<no-defun-allowed> Right, thanks.
<Shinmera> (member does, if you have a list)
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<Shinmera> Often you can also avoid the not altogether by reshuffling clauses.
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<no-defun-allowed> I'll have to take a look then.
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<decent-username> I wanted to understand how :adjustable modifies the characteristics of an array. Therefore I've read what the HyperSpec had to say, but it didn't really help me. Why would I want to use ":adjustable t" when creating an array?
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<jackdaniel> decent-username: i.e when the average case is that array will hold 4 elements but in rare occasions it needs to hold 1024 elements
<jackdaniel> you create an array of size 4 and when you exceed that number it is adjusted
<decent-username> hm... but for that I would need to supply :fill-pointer, right?
<jackdaniel> if you use fill-pointer you allocate full array beforehand
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<decent-username> Because doing something like (make-array 4 :adjustable t) will still raise an error when I try to use vector-push-extend
<jackdaniel> if you have *a lot* of small arrays then it would be a huge waste to have each of them to have 1024 size
<jackdaniel> you need to call adjust-array
<decent-username> ahh, I didn't know such a function existed. I think that's the thing that led to the confusion.
<decent-username> Thanks, that cleared things up for me. :)
<jackdaniel> sure
<jackdaniel> I'm still waiting for the new CL standard with left-fill-pointer, rotating arrays and conformal displacement :-)
<jackdaniel> s/rotating arrays/rotating vectors/ ;)
<decent-username> that would be pretty useful
<decent-username> the rotating part would allow for the creating of some interesting functions.
<decent-username> creation*
<edgar-rft> rotating arrays sound like re-invention of the wheel :-)
<phoe> jackdaniel: can I rotate a vector by pi/6?
<jackdaniel> phoe: I mean circular buffers
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<p_l> any language out there that has them in standard (not to be mistaken with abuse of communication primitives to make buffers
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<no-defun-allowed> phoe: depends on the circumference of the vector and width of the cells, assuming a spiral vector
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<no-defun-allowed> phoe: oh, you wanted circular vectors, and those were for circular vectors but I said spiral for some reason
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<no-defun-allowed> does it accept rotations in degrees or radians?
<loke> no-defun-allowed: No. It's one-dimensional.
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<loke> You can't do roitations ineo one dimension .
<no-defun-allowed> well, the vector is circular, the circumference is one-dimensional but the circle is two-dimensional
<loke> no-defun-allowed: No. It's a one-dimensional vector. Just because its curvature is positive doesn't mean that there are any more dimensions.
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<scymtym> decent-username: VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND can adjust the array for you, but you have to specify both, :adjustable t and :fill-pointer VALID-INDEX-OR-T when creating the array for that to work
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<loke> scymtym: My implementation does all of that already
<loke> (also, no need for :fill-pointer)
<scymtym> loke: i don't follow. decent-username asked why (make-array 4 :adjustable t) followed by VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND didn't work
<loke> scymtym: Oh right. It was JD that talked about circular arrays
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<montxero> Any ideas on how to deal with lambdas inside datastructures like a-lists? I am running into problems using those. Check https://pastebin.com/UP3i4YzP out
<Shinmera> what you have there is not a function, but a list of (function (lambda ...)), since it's within a quote.
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<montxero> Shinmera: Oh.
<decent-username> Those hash quotes before every lambda expression are also redundant right?
<Shinmera> Yes.
<montxero> decent-username: I think I doesn't matter in most cases
<montxero> it**
<Shinmera> it's more consistent to not use #' for lambda, because there are cases where you must write (lambda ..) and not #'(lambda ..)
<decent-username> Yeah, but why would you writem them though? (lambda ...) is more readable than #'(lambda ...).
<Shinmera> whether it's more readable or not is up for debate, but the consistency is not.
<montxero> decent-username: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation suggested so.
<decent-username> I've unfortunately already forgotten 50% what the book said.
<decent-username> ;p
<loke> decent-username: (LAMBDA () ...) has a macro-expansion that expands it to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...)). Now, #'(LAMBDA () ...) is a reader-macro that expands into... (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...))
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<montxero> Shinmera: Golly, you're right. type-of shows it is a cons.
<Shinmera> A already knew I was right because the printed representation of a function is not readable, so it would show as #<function ..>
<decent-username> loke: Is there a case where it matters if the macro is expanded during read-time compared to compile time?
<montxero> How can I use lambdas in an alist?
<montxero> Or should I abandon the idea?
<decent-username> just use a regular quote
<decent-username> '(lambda (x) (+ x x))
<Shinmera> what
<montxero> decent-username: giving it a go
<decent-username> that stores it as a list and it can later be evaluated
<Shinmera> montxero: `((foo . ,(lambda () ..)))
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<montxero> decent-username: didn't work
<montxero> Shinmera: clever... trying now
<decent-username> > . < damn
<montxero> Shinmera: Boom!!
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<d4ryus> When constructing lists with quasiquote, is it ok to modify them at runtime?
<montxero> decent-username: not to worry, we both learned someting new... or rather relearned
<decent-username> alright, guess there's some stuff goin on under the hood that I don't know.
<Shinmera> d4ryus: Generally no, but usually the quasiquote will have to create a fresh structure at runtime anyway.
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<d4ryus> Shinmera: hmm, interesting. Why/When would it need to create a fresh structure? It is creating a list at compile time, isnt it?
<Shinmera> how could it make `(a ,b) at compile-time?
<Shinmera> or better yet, `(a ,@b)
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<Shinmera> In fact, if it didn't, that would be catastrophic for macros, since a second invocation of a macro would suddenly change the results of a previous invocation.
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<decent-username> evaluating (setf blub (let ((xs '((a . #'(λ (s) s))))) (assoc 'a xs))) gives me something with the following printed representation (A FUNCTION (Λ (S) S))
<loke> decent-username: You can intentionally create a pathological case where it does matter.
<loke> In practice, no. At least not in my experience.
<decent-username> loke: thx for the answer
<loke> decent-username: You can play around with EVAL-WHEN, and you can create all sorts of weird behaviour.
<decent-username> Then make I'll sure to stay the fuck away from that evil satanistic function.
<d4ryus> Shinmera: huh, thats new to me, i thought quasiquote was expanded at macro expansion time. But yeah, one can use quasiquote to do ,@ at runtime, neat
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<decent-username> LOL! I've configured emacs to show a literal lambda whenever I write "lambda" and that seems to mess with slime.
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<montxero> decent-username: huh? I have that setting and it works a treat. No issues with slime here
<montxero> how did you set it up?
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<decent-username> I'll show you
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<decent-username> that's what I did.
<decent-username> ignore the second "The emacs lisp code:"
<montxero> Oh... I have this in my emacs config: (global-prettify-symbols-mode 1)
<montxero> That's all you need I believe
<decent-username> I don't know why slime has such issues with the lambda.
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<montxero> In the past, I ran into some problems with a similar function to what you have. I belive I got it from emacswiki
<decent-username> maybe It interprets the character not as a unicode character but something else.
<decent-username> I think I'll just remove my-pretty-lambda. T _ T
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<ralt> oh my
<ralt> thank you montxero
<ralt> straight into my emacs config
<montxero> ralt: you're welcome
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<Shinmera> I don't suppose there's an ICC profile parser anywhere in Lisp
<dlowe> it's there, but in its potential form
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<Shinmera> I've dealt with that form much too often
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<skidd0> hello, i just quickloaded timer, and when i try to (timer:enable-timers) i get an error that the package does not exist.
<skidd0> so then, i went back through the docs and tried to install it using asdf-install
<skidd0> but i get an extension failure "Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF-INSTALL"
<skidd0> which is odd, because the ASDF docs say i can skip installing asdf-install on sbcl
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<Bike> uh, asdf-install is hella obsolete. what docs are you reading?
<skidd0> so i am very confused on how quicklisp can find and load the package, but my lisp image can't
<skidd0> see that's what i thought
<Bike> wait, are you using asdf-install or quicklisp?
<skidd0> which is why is used ql first
<skidd0> but after i got the issue that the package couldn't be found, i decided to do what the docs say
<dlowe> Xach: your cert expired 4 days ag
<skidd0> would that be why?
<Xach> uff
<Shinmera> even if the system is named timer the package might not be
<Bike> whoa, timer has a lot of dependencies
<skidd0> Shinmera: in that doc, there's an example section where he calls (timer:enable-timers)
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<skidd0> Bike: i saw that too
<skidd0> perhaps i'll search for a different package for this task
<Xach> timer is obsolete also. what it does has been incorporated directly into sbcl.
<skidd0> oh
<Bike> there's a timer-journaler package but oh ok.
<Bike> i'm not even sure what i just installed, the directory apparently isn't called timer either...? oh well
<skidd0> well thank you all for the help
<skidd0> as usual, you're a nice bunch
<skidd0> if i had lisp friends, i'd point them your way
<Xach> i wonder if letsencrypt emails are going into spam. boo.
<dlowe> skidd0: turn your existing friends into lisp friends
<Xach> dlowe: fixed, thanks.
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<dlowe> np :)
<decent-username> <dlowe> skidd0: turn your existing friends into lisp friends <--This
<decent-username> ^this
<dlowe> disclaimer: I have not actually done so.
<dlowe> despite my best efforts
<Xach> time to turn your enemies into lisp enemies
<decent-username> I'm molding an emacs user into a common-lisp programmer. It'll take some time though
<Shinmera> Xach: they probably already are
<decent-username> I should be getting paid for my Lisp shilling.
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<dlowe> you get paid for results not for effort
<dlowe> your payment the best, though: having another lisper around
<dlowe> *is
<decent-username> dlowe: there's some truth to that
<skidd0> dlowe: i have constantly espoused the grand benefits of learning lisp and using SLIME to my programming coworkers. all have expressed interest. none have actually pursued. they're too busy being employed with Blubs and too millenial to actually follow up on their claims. i think they just want me to shut up about lisp
* jackdaniel keeps for himself a few salty remarks about recommending lisp to friends
<skidd0> let the salt vent out
<skidd0> you won't feel any better tho
<jackdaniel> nah, that wouldn't be constructive ,)
<skidd0> good point. wish i could remove my rant
<decent-username> REAL™ computer scientists and software developers use Common Lisp.
<skidd0> i try my best to avoid the no-true-scottsmans
<jackdaniel> real computer scientists and software developers get things done disregarding the language without calling others unreal ,p
* jackdaniel checks no-true-scottsman on urban dictionary
<Cymew> Real programmers write in Fortran, right?
<decent-username> HERETIC! Burn Cymew at the stake!
<Cymew> LOL! :)
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<Cymew> I have actually been paid for writing both Fortran and CL.
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<dlowe> You know, at one time all programmers were big nerds, but that hasn't been true for decades now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to have an obsession with a job skill.
<Cymew> So very true.
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<skidd0> dlowe: employers and hiring managers seem to
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<dlowe> skidd0: employers and hiring managers know that "passion" drives down salaries
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<dlowe> they're just being cheapskates
<dlowe> anyway, this is a nice #lispcafe discussion
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<skidd0> do new threads use the same std-out stream?
<jackdaniel> "forthran", what a nice name for a new programming language! ;)
<dlowe> forthanisp?
<jackdaniel> skidd0: it depeneds, but you may add the streams to initial-bindings
<jackdaniel> then they will
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<pfdietz> Ah, format hackery. ~:[ ... ~; ~:* ... ~]
<Xach> ~:D
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<montxero> What are some best practices for developing gui / command line applications.
<dlowe> what other kinds are there?
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<p_l> dlowe: daemons?
<montxero> dlowe: programs that just run in the repl, maybe web-apps...
<p_l> on-demand functions/blocks in specialized hosting environments
<p_l> (often called serverless these days, 1960s called and says CICS did it back then better and cheaper)
<dlowe> specialized command line applications :)
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<montxero> okay so there are several kinds of applications, I just want to be able to make an application that doesn't have to run only in the repl
<jackdaniel> montxero: check out CLON (in quicklisp net.didierverna.clon)
<jackdaniel> it has a good documentation
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<jackdaniel> it is for creating console binaries with an interface --with-flags --and-options=42
<montxero> jackdaniel: thanks... all over it
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<jackdaniel> if you are interested in gui applications there is McCLIM (that may be combined with clon!) and ffi bindings like eql5, commonqt and a few others
<dlowe> also, to find other library options, this page is useful: https://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries
<jackdaniel> regarding daemonizing applications you'll probably have to write your service definitions yourself, but that's not surprise given only you know how your program will be invoked
<dlowe> I have a couple of lisp daemons running under systemd. It wasn't difficult.
<jackdaniel> I second the above
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<p_l> don't "daemonize", run like a foreground process, use supervision feature in init system. done.
<p_l> (systemd is shit though :P)
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<pjb> Pack Your Bags – Systemd Is Taking You to a New Home <https://hackaday.com/2019/10/16/pack-your-bags-systemd-is-taking-you-to-a-new-home/>
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<montxero> bye folks
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<flip214> pjb: is that on-topic because it got rewritten in Lisp? ;)
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* lieven gets a vision of a Common Lisp implementation by Poettering
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<pjb> flip214: pretty please, rewrite it in CL!
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<aeth> I wonder the implications of writing something like that in Common Lisp. e.g. Memory usage is higher, so I guess you'd want to put it all in one process instead of having dozens of daemons (a few hundred MB vs. GBs of RAM usage)
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<aeth> (What I mean is that the fixed cost k in RAM usage is much higher for each process, so you could save 19k worth of RAM of you use one daemon instead of 20)
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<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, one runtime would have less overhead than one runtime per process.
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