<oni-on-ion>
ah you found it? cool =) i am interested in embedding sbcl last year but have not looked into it
<dmiles>
well that contain more info than i know before but still not good enough
<dmiles>
that link is more for once you embeded it this is what you could do
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<dmiles>
or "if lisp called your FFI .. your FFI can call lisp back using this method"
<dmiles>
oni-on-ion: so not found it yet
<oni-on-ion>
ahh, right. extra steps
<oni-on-ion>
i had begun to look at various schemes for this reason
<oni-on-ion>
(the reason of embedding)
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<dmiles>
supposedly we jsut have to build it like nonmral and then copy src/runtime/runtime.c to myapp.c
<dmiles>
then work to gettign to where we can compile myapp.c
<dmiles>
then for SWI-prolog i switch myapp.c to compiling to myloadable.so.c
<dmiles>
having SWI's forign_library_init() call al that monkey business of sbcl_main() but not have ot go to the REPL
<dmiles>
just been nice to know if the sbcl team ensured that this was not broken thinking
<oni-on-ion>
ohh, cool. i remember seeing some of that file runtime.c
<oni-on-ion>
i had some C code that was ready to embed in several things, prolog ocaml lisp
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<dmiles>
you should github it
<dmiles>
and you/me others can work on making it work for SBCL
<dmiles>
but be nice to integrate whatever you had
<dmiles>
i cna make sure SWI-Prolgo cna dynamcally load it
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<oni-on-ion>
ah it was mostly custom code for a thing i was working on, its really too specific to be useful to anyone else's code
<oni-on-ion>
however i notice that emacs has a lot of "stubs". even a large one for ocaml (called Ecaml) by jane street
<oni-on-ion>
there is a somewhat comprehensive one for erlang as well. just thinking that if emacs is most of our (freenode) dev hubs, may as well look toward there
<dmiles>
ebmedding ELisp ?
<dmiles>
neat
<oni-on-ion>
yea =) and also with guile there; what i am imagining is that one could prototype in emacs, with all native tools (graphics libs, etc etc) and then migrate to a native implementation and platform of whatever one fancies
<dmiles>
well i have two versions of common lisp that is accessable callable from Prolog .. its jsut hte SBCL-philism i wanted to please
<dmiles>
like we can call ABCL via SWI-Prolog's JPL interface
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<jasom>
dmiles: signals and mmap are going to be two issues with running two managed runtimes in the same process
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<dmiles>
two being Mono and SBCL?
<dmiles>
(thinking of jsut Signals)
<dmiles>
i know mono uses signals unsparingly
<dmiles>
Swipl most leaves them alone
<jasom>
mono, jvm, I think you said perl at some point, I have no idea how that vm works, but most managed environments want to control one or both of signals and the memory map
<dmiles>
*nod* thankfully the only two apps i am using only use sbcl+Swipl+mono and JVM stuff is goign thru IKVM
<dmiles>
oops two apps = 1) sbcl+Swipl+mono 2) sbcl+Swipl+mono+ikvm
<dmiles>
yeah the memeory moves all over the place uncontrolled in mono
<phoe>
I thought that (rt:do-tests) can be executed even from CL-USER and that it does any *PACKAGE* bindings on its own.
<phoe>
As a side note - what is the passage in the spec that justifies ANSI-TEST upgraded-array-element-type.nil.1 ?
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<phoe>
Or rather, that (u-a-e-t nil) must be nil?
<pfdietz35>
That follows from (1) T1 being a subtype of T2 implies uaet(t1) is a subtype of uaet(t2), (2) uaet(bit) being bit, and (3) uaet(character) being character.
<pfdietz35>
nil is a subtype of bit and character, so uaet(nil) must also be. But the only type that is a subtype of both is nil.
<phoe>
pfdietz35: thanks. I'll allow myself to add your comment to the file above the test body, so the next person who looks for the explanation finds it there.
<pfdietz35>
Probably a good idea
<phoe>
pfdietz35: done and MR'd. Thanks.
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<phoe>
I assume that it is legal to create an array of element-type NIL, but it is illegal to access any of its elements. Am I correct?
<phoe>
Illegal, as in, has undefined consequences.
<pfdietz35>
Right
<pfdietz35>
So they are useless, and it's reasonable for an implementation to say "nope, not going to implement that part of the standard".
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<phoe>
I also assume that (array-element-type (make-array 10 :element-type nil)) must return NIL.
<pfdietz35>
There are several notes in ansi-test related to this nil array stuff.
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<pfdietz35>
Yes, that should return NIL.
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<phoe>
Is there an ANSI-TEST for that somewhere?
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<pfdietz35>
I don't think so? Let me confirm that the standard absolutely requires it...
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<pfdietz35>
I think I left that out for reasons of controversy.
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<phoe>
I'd rather add such a test there with an :ansi-spec-controversy note than leave it out. ANSI-TEST already has a fair share of controversial stuff in it.
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<pfdietz35>
Hmm. Extracting debug information into CL. I know there's an ELF library; but is there a DWARF library for CL?
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<oni-on-ion>
maybe with Clasp ?
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<p_l>
you don't need clasp
<p_l>
might be even counter-productive
<p_l>
you need access to right stdlibc++ to demangle symbols though
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<oni-on-ion>
it was a maybe
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<p_l>
as for DWARF, you can use libdwarf to start, or you could write a DWARF interpreter. I think one Scheme ended up having one and some people even tried to use it for bindings
<p_l>
of course requires that the code has debug data
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<Shinmera>
The Clasp people were looking into wrangling DWARF a while back at least
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<dmiles>
pjb: you mean because i am calling a c program that calls back to lisp?
<dmiles>
(why to look at that pdf)
<dmiles>
also i am doing "Hack SBCL's foreign function linkage table to point foo at foo-lisp " :)
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<pjb>
dmiles: this is an example of how you can merge sbcl with a C program. Load the C binary into sbcl.
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<Kabriel>
Shinmera: what is the difference (high-level) between alloy and mcclim?
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<Shinmera>
I don't know if I know enough about clim to answer that question.
<Shinmera>
They're very different protocols though, so building UIs is going to be different.
<Shinmera>
As far as I understand CLIM does not have things out of the box that I worried about for Alloy from the beginning, such as resolution scaling and detached focus hierarchies.
<Shinmera>
I hope someone with CLIM experience will take a look at some point so that that question can be answered better :)
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<Kabriel>
In my very limited understanding, if I wanted to program a GUI interface, I could use CLIM for that. Could I also do that using Alloy?
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<Shinmera>
Uh, they're both UI toolkits, so yes?
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<phoe>
blasted floating point bugs
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<phoe>
on some Linux dists on CCL 32-bit (tan (coerce (/ pi 4) 'single-float)) gives me 1.0 and on some other it gives me 1.0000001
<beach>
phoe: Have you taken on the maintenance of CCL?
<phoe>
beach: nope, but I've decided to spend some time on getting it into a better shape overall.
<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
phoe: Is rme not working on it anymore?
<phoe>
beach: he is, yes!
<beach>
Whew!
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<phoe>
I'm just helping with things.
<beach>
That's great!
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<PuercoPope>
Xach: would you consider adding an :interactive keyword argument to ql:add-to-init-file so it can be used when installing quicklisp on a CI?
<easye>
phoe: Thanks for helping out with CCL. I'd could help getting a new release working on freebsd/macos
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<_death>
PuercoPope: check out ql-util:without-prompting
<phoe>
easye: no problem. I have no freebsd environment myself just yet and I'm trying to get and squash some bugs first in order to actually gain some knowledge about how CCL works internally.
<PuercoPope>
phoe: is update all dists necessary on a freshly installed quicklisp? I'm using builds.sr.ht btw
<phoe>
If you want some help, please throw issues at CCL's issue tracker - I'll try to investigate them in a spare while.
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<phoe>
PuercoPope: I have absolutely no idea. I do it out of habit and I guess that, in the worst case, I'm redundant.
<easye>
phoe: freebsd is a bit esoteric, but it would be nice to start with getting a newer version than ccl-1.11 into MacPorts. Finding bootstrap compiler images seems more difficult now that they are no longer available in svn.
<PuercoPope>
phoe: I should acquire that habit, I tend to update quicklisp dists about once a year ^_^
<easye>
I saw that Clozure was updated in the Apple Store the other week, so maybe everything is somoothing out.
<phoe>
easye: you could try to use builds.sr.ht as well for CI on FreeBSD - drew provides freebsd VMs for that.
<phoe>
Travis only has darwin/linux/windows.
<easye>
phoe: check.
<phoe>
You could perhaps modify the travis script I have in my fork of CCL's repository at github.com/phoe-trash/ccl
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<easye>
phoe: Thanks. I will take a look, but honestly I probably don't have spare time for ccl until I get abcl-1.6.0 out the door. Hopefully before Thanksgiving.
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<phoe>
easye: good luck with that!
<easye>
In any event, I have to dash out into the Fall Vienna evening right now, so I bid you farewell for bit.
<phoe>
Have you checked if it is it possible to bootstrap 1.11.5 from 1.11?
<phoe>
If yes, then the bootstrap path should be somewhat clean. If not, then we're in for more trouble.
* easye
waves.
<phoe>
See you!
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<phoe>
12.1.4.3 says that "An error of type floating-point-overflow or floating-point-underflow should be signaled if a floating-point computation causes exponent overflow or underflow, respectively."
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<phoe>
CCL currently defaults to not signaling underflow errors, unless (ccl:set-fpu-mode :underflow t) is explicitly evaluated. Is this conformant?
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<Bike>
prolly not, but a couple implementations have switches, which is technically nonconformant i guess
<Shinmera>
they should be on by default
<Shinmera>
float-features already provides a portable way to turn them on
<Shinmera>
*turn them off
<phoe>
What does "should" mean in this case? Why doesn't the spec say "must" in this case?
<Shinmera>
I'm saying should as in, it's the right thing to do, regardless of spec.
<Bike>
oh, that's uh, that one section early on
<Bike>
"An error should be signaled: This means that an error is signaled in safe code, and an error might be signaled in unsafe code."
<Bike>
in clhs 1.4.2
<phoe>
Shinmera: I know and I agree with you, I just need to figure out what the scriptures say on the matter
<White_Flame>
SBCL doesn't seem to signal underflow by default either
<White_Flame>
just returns 0.0
<Bike>
i guess you could try it in safe code and see
<Bike>
prolly the same tho
<phoe>
seems the same
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<phoe>
the question is whether this behaviour is actually sane
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<phoe>
because it does seem to be sane to *not* signal underflows by default
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<Bike>
i think it's perfectly sane, but nt allowed by a strict reading
<jmercouris>
what is 'safe' code?
<jmercouris>
is it a code wrapped in a handler or something?
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<oni-on-ion>
non-executed kind
<oni-on-ion>
no cause, no effect! =)
<phoe>
jmercouris: safe code is code compiled with (optimize safety)
<jmercouris>
phoe: Ah, I see
<phoe>
Bike: I think it's sane and purposefully non-conforming
<phoe>
and at this code an ANSI-TEST note might be warranted for implementations that purposefully do not conform to that part of the spec and do not error with underflows by default
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* Xach
catches up on quicklisp project issues
<Xach>
i feel a new release coming soon!
<phoe>
:O !!!!
<no-defun-allowed>
it's the most wonderful time of the month (or thereabouts)
<pfdietz35>
"An error of type floating-point-overflow or floating-point-underflow should be signaled if a floating-point computation causes exponent overflow or underflow, respectively.
<pfdietz35>
"
<pfdietz35>
Hmm.
<pfdietz35>
But then for the arithmetic operations themselves it's all "Might signal".
<phoe>
Hmm.
<phoe>
So it is a contradiction, should versus might?
<phoe>
If yes, then also :ANSI-SPEC-PROBLEM that is.