phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<LdBeth> Good my
<LdBeth> *morning
<no-defun-allowed> Hello LdBeth
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<loke> Ohh. I managed to add Climaxima to the Flathub repository
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<dialectic> I have, in some of my lightweight archaeology, discovered something called an "array leader" which existed in Lisp Machine Lisp among other places, and which might have made it into Common Lisp but did not. Is this similar to, in C:
<dialectic> struct { t1 f1; t2 f2; t f[] }, i.e. the array header pattern?
<Bike> this appears to be described in the chinual.
<dialectic> ..."chinual"?
<dialectic> Ha
<dialectic> Wow, I didn't know Stallman was a co-author of that.
<dialectic> I thought it was just the other two, Moon and Weinreb.
<Bike> it does seem a bit like a flexible array member, but it can be accessed as a thing in itself, so it might not have been implemented as one
<Bike> well
<Bike> it seems like everything in the struct EXCEPT the flexible array member, i mean
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<Bike> wait, no, you can't swap out the array leader
<dialectic> Interesting. I wonder why it didn't make it into CL. That's useful if you're handed a contiguous "buffer with a header" from somewhere else.
<Bike> well, the leader represents lisp specific data
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<Bike> e.g., it mentions the zeroth element of the leader is the fill pointer, and if you use an array with a leader but don't treat that spot as a fill pointer you'll have problems
<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<Bike> still, it could be kind of neat to have FAM type structures
<dialectic> FAM?
<dialectic> fields and memory?
<Bike> flexible array member because i'm sick of typing it out
<Bike> the formal name for the C pattern you mentioned
<dialectic> Oh. Embarrassed I had forgotten that. I don't do embedded anymore.
<Bike> everybody just does f[0] instead anyway
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<White_Flame> dialectic: in my reading of the Ivory, the array leader is variable-sized. The Lisp implementation chooses to implement certain structures using arrays, and can store any amount of metadata in the leader. The CPU mechanisms are oblivious to what's there
<White_Flame> on the Ivory, the object pointer to an array is to the normal array header, and the leader is before that in memory
<White_Flame> as wellas being optional
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<dialectic> White_Flame: Oh? Curious. If that's the case, no wonder it was removed.
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<White_Flame> yeah, it's definitely an implementation artifact for constructing other compound data types, not a feature of standard arrays
<White_Flame> for instance, flavor/clos class pointers would go there
<White_Flame> but since the GC was very low-level, the memory layout of extended custom objects needed to follow a regular model that the GC could always grok
<White_Flame> hence that metadata leader blob
<White_Flame> nowadays, since GC is at the same software level as the rest of the software runtime, it can be much smarter
<White_Flame> and object types can have much more customization than relying on low-level array metadata
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<asarch> One stupid question: why SBCL and not GNU Common Lisp?
<asarch> Is it because GCL is Lisp-1 and SBCL Lisp-2?
<no-defun-allowed> GCL isn't a conforming Common Lisp implementation, and it doesn't have a native code compiler that makes JVM weenies fear for their lives[citation needed].
<asarch> Oh :(
<jackdaniel> GCL implements CLtL2 with effort to support ANSI CL (and it is Lisp-2)
<no-defun-allowed> GCL, if it is supposed to be a Common Lisp implementation, has to be a Lisp-2. There should be zero difference in semantics when running portable CL programs on conforming implementations.
<dialectic> Didn't GNU Common Lisp turn into Kyoto Common Lisp?
<dialectic> Or do I have it backwards
<jackdaniel> you have it backwards
<no-defun-allowed> I think it was the other way around.
<jackdaniel> hang on a second
<dialectic> two out of three, that's quorum.
<jackdaniel> you may see relations here
<jackdaniel> kcl was ancestor of ibuki, delphi, akcl and ecolisp
<no-defun-allowed> Kyoto implemented CLtL 1 (which is not ANSI CL), Austin-Kyoto was an improved fork, then GCL was derived from AK.
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<jackdaniel> gcl is descendant of akcl
<dialectic> it's cool that CLASP is on there
<jackdaniel> probably I should paint some green blocks yellow and vice versa after 3y, but nvm that
<jackdaniel> there is also some inaccuracy in the obsolete section, I remember being called for making the link Lisp-to-C towards Star Sapphire
<jackdaniel> s/a towards b/from a to b/
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<kuribas> what the equivalent of haskell take in lisp?
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<kuribas> take 2 [1, 2, 3] => [1, 2]
<kuribas> take 2 [1] => [1]
<Bike> subseq, roughly, i guess?
<kuribas> but (subseq '(1) 0 2) => error
<Bike> roughly
<kuribas> Bike: I'd like the exact behaviour
<Bike> (defun take (n list) (subseq list 0 (min n (length list))))
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<kuribas> Bike: yes, now that's O(n)
<kuribas> over the length of the list
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<Bike> yeah?
<kuribas> length is O(n)
<Bike> i'm aware.
<Bike> in a strict language i don't see how you could do this faster, really.
<kuribas> erm (take 2 list-of-twenty-million-values) => should only look at two elements
<LdBeth> Why list?
<kuribas> not twenty million
<kuribas> LdBeth: because I have a list as input?
<Bike> okay. true. so you can write an iteration over list elements. do you want me to write it for you or are you capable.
<LdBeth> You can create a grey stream
<kuribas> Bike: I am capable thank you. Just wanted to know if lisp has something standard defined
<Bike> no.
<LdBeth> Which is strict language’s lazy list
<kuribas> ok, thanks
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<LdBeth> There’s one in CLtL2 Appendix
<LdBeth> Though not merged into ANSI
<LdBeth> And neither grey stream’s in standard
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<LdBeth> gg
<_death> there are libraries, like clazy
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<ggole> (defun take (n list) (loop repeat n for elt in list collect elt))
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<zhlyg> Grey or Gray?
<shka__> zhlyg: Grey
<shka__> family name
<_death> Gray..
<shka__> oh, sorry!
<shka__> _death is right
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<pjb> ggole: for terminates.
<pjb> for in I mean.
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<ggole> Isn't that the desired behaviour here?
<pjb> which is what haskell takes does… Yes.
<pjb> I was thinking about (defun take (n list) (loop repeat n for current := list :then (rest current) collect (first current))) but then (take 2 '(1)) #| --> (1 nil) |#
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<dim> just noticed that the topic here says SBCL 1.4.16 is current, but I see _The most recent version is SBCL 1.5.4, released June 29, 2019_ over at sbcl.org... do we want to maintain the topic version numbers?
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<ck_> I'd put the urls in the topic if they fit -- I'd be surprised if anybody depended on the topic of #lisp on freenode for their release updates
<ck_> or maybe those are there in case of rhetorical emergencies. "What version do you run? I'm sorry. We only discuss sbcl 1.4.16 in here!"
jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
<jackdaniel> 1.4.16? where? :)
<aeth> I'm reading the backlog but I'm confused because the topic says 1.5.4
<aeth> Maybe I should go back to reading in backwards order
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<aeth> pjb: ggole has the correct answer. LOOP will terminate at the shorter iteration, so it will either repeat n times or for loop the length of the list, whichever ends first
<aeth> sort of like how mapcar uses the shortest list
<aeth> (values (take 2 '(1)) (take 2 '(1 2 3)))
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<aeth> if you wanted to have a filler value you'd have to let the user specify a default because the user might have a list of NILs as the input!
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<aeth> I think the best TAKE in CL style, though, would be sequence-generic and have an ETYPECASE with Bike's (subseq sequence 0 (min n (length sequence))) solution for non-list sequences (ideally vectors, but a user-extensible sequence might be used).
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<aeth> (defun take (n sequence) (check-type n fixnum) (etypecase sequence (list (loop :repeat n :for item :in sequence :collect item)) (sequence (subseq sequence 0 (min n (length sequence))))))
<aeth> (values (take 2 '(1)) (take 2 '(1 2 3)) (take 2 #(1)) (take 2 #(1 2 3)))
<aeth> You actually don't want to check for fixnum. A positive fixnum type will probably work, although technically there are some very large positive fixnums that will be invalid. Not really an issue since you'll run out of memory first. Either way, the check-type will actually wind up speeding things up for large enough n because it will remove the generic arithmetic.
<aeth> And I guess if you're using check-type, then CTYPECASE fits better than ETYPECASE
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<interruptinuse> hey #lisp
<interruptinuse> asdf manual "6.3.12 Feature dependencies" says :feature cannot be used to make the system depend on a specific impl feature
<interruptinuse> does asdf provide anything for that?
<interruptinuse> my current options are: (1) to :if-feature the package.lisp file, which is ugly, or (2) to detect the feature myself in package.lisp or something and fail at compile time
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<interruptinuse> basically i'd lik to say, as declaratively as possible, "this .asd is for SBCL only"
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<phf> hello, does anybody have a backup of https://github.com/pyb/zen (it's the common lisp implementation of x11 server, targeting opengl)?
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<oni-on-ion> phf, sounds like it would be a nice project; i tried searching for it and could not find anything
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<edgar-rft> phf, found a copy here: https://github.com/thephoeron/zen
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