jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<pillton> Good morning beach.
<beach> Hey pillton. Long time no see.
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<ebzzry> Xach: the certificate for xach.com seems to have expired already
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<no-defun-allowed> Can confirm, was looking for that page with the animated lambda magic on xach.com but the certificate broke
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<jmarciano> hello, I am looking for one lisp programming language, little peculiar, scientific, with 3D and OpenGL, but I forgot the name. It is not common lisp implementation. It was available on GNU/Linux distributions before years, now stopped to appear in package lists. Can somebody help with clues?
<jdz> I've seen xlisp, but not sure has/had 3D and OpenGL.
<jmarciano> ah, but not that one
<jdz> Maybe xlisp-stat?
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<Lycurgus> well this is a common lisp channel, try ##lisp
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<jmarciano> sure
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<jmarciano> I remembered, it is lush http://lush.sourceforge.net/index.html
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<jackdaniel> I think that botwars are finished for a time being
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<p_l> hmm, did anyone clean up perma-mute list before dropping text about contacting OPs if you cannot speak?
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<Xach> Ok
<Xach> thanks
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<Xach> borodust: hi! i recently updated quicklisp to handle submodules properly.
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<borodust> Xach: hello :)
<borodust> Xach: oh, so we can now publish whole bunch of projects from a single git repository?
<borodust> noice!
<borodust> Xach: am i correctly assuming that if i request adding https://github.com/borodust/bodge-projects to quicklisp that would bring all of the projects in?
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<gjvc> Xach: thank you for all your work on quicklisp
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<sindan> Is there any regular expression library built into common lisp?
<ck_> sindan: no
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<sindan> ok
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<ck_> sindan: there's plenty of library support though, try cl-ppcre for example
<beach> sindan: Most languages don't have that built in.
<sindan> ck_, thanks, I've seen it. Just need a tiny bit of matching, not frequently.
<sindan> beach, yeah suspected it but CL is not "most languages" so I thought I'd ask
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<beach> sindan: I see, yes.
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<Xach> borodust: yes, i believe so
<Xach> borodust: it will end up in a big tarball
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<beach> I am reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry for SXHASH.
<beach> clhs sxhash.
<specbot> Couldn't find anything for sxhash..
<beach> clhs sxhash
<beach> Am I reading it correctly that for symbols, the value must be independent of if the image, so that the address (assuming the symbols doesn't move) can not be used as a value in this case?
<beach> s/if//
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<Bike> i think so. it says 'similar' too, and that's a between-images thing.
<beach> OK, so then I can see only two solutions. Either store a hash value with the symbol, or compute it from its name, and perhaps the name of its package too.
<beach> Right?
<Bike> think so.
<Bike> looks like sbcl symbols have a symbol-hash stored.
<beach> OK, thanks. Next question...
<beach> EQ hash tables don't have that restriction, right, i.e., the hash value could be based on the address?
<borodust> Xach: ah, well, i see
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<borodust> that would be not quite right
<shka__> beach: yes
<beach> In fact, the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for sxhash says that sxhash in intended for use where the pre-defined abstractions are insufficient.
<beach> So for the pre-defined one, some other way of computing the hash value can be used.
<Bike> yeah, sxhash doesn't have to be used by the hash table implementation, and i don't think the requirements match any of them anyway
<shka__> i think that standard as not well developed around the hash tables
<shka__> in fact, you can implement hash-table as a linear-scan-in-list
<shka__> and don't use hash function at all
<beach> shka__: And that is what I pretty much have to do for the purpose of bootstrapping.
<shka__> will it hurt?
<beach> ... since the hash functions of the host and those of SICL are very likely not the same.
<beach> No. Once I have an executable, I can load code that transforms the hash tables.
<shka__> so no problem i guess
<shka__> keep it simple
<beach> Possibly some performance problem during bootstrapping, that's all.
<shka__> if such problems would occur, given that you are working with just symbols, alternative solution can be engineered
<shka__> for instance, using trie for package name and symbol name
<beach> There are such possibilities, sure.
<shka__> so it does not sounds like a huge problem at all
<beach> Right. I just need to know what I can do and at which point in time.
<shka__> oh, i can imagine how difficult that is
<beach> Just tedious. Not very hard.
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<Xach> borodust: no? what would you expect?
<Xach> each submodule with its own separate project?
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<ebrasca> Xach: Does Quicklisp have some descentralization?
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<Xach> ebrasca: in what sense?
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<Xach> The software I use to make it is on github. The meta-metadata is on github. the archives are on s3/cloudfront.
<Xach> The process could be improved so anyone could do what I do more easily, but someone with determination could do it now.
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<ebrasca> Xach: For now I am working on Mezzano network ( Like usocket ).
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<sebboh> In what year was the first asdf released?
<sebboh> ebrasca: no, I think quicklisp has a busfactor of one. (Does anyone other than Xach even have commit access?)
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<stacksmith> Good morning
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<beach> Hello stacksmith.
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<jackdaniel> sebboh: you have to differentiate quicklisp.org and its dists and quicklisp as software you could use
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<jackdaniel> using quicklisp as a software and rolling your own release to use with the client is fairly easy
<jackdaniel> in fact there are a few projects which do that
<jackdaniel> s/easy/attaintable/
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<stacksmith> Is there a library that helps with the construction and introspection of deep lexical environments? (at compile time) I commonly run into a situation where macros are used at different levels and need to sometimes expand code that creates temporary objects, and other times are embedded deeply, with such objects already constructed by layers above...
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<stacksmith> I should say expansion time
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<stacksmith> I've been writing ad-hoc code each time, but it is clear that there is a pattern: a macro needs to, at expansion time, introspect on some object that has to do with some lexical bindings that will exist when the entire macroexpansion process is complete, and if some outer macro has taken care of creating some bindings already, not expand code that creates some bindings...
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<stacksmith> Also, keep track of sequencing: some binding-establishing code should not expand until some _other_ bindings are taken care of, with proper error messages when the sequence is violated...
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<stacksmith> I need some kind of a dynamic metalayer for describing lexical environments at macroexpansion time.
<stacksmith> Future lexical environments, that is.
<stacksmith> Maybe I'm just crazy.
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<sebboh> jackdaniel: oh, so you can point quicklisp away from quicklisp.org? Well, that makes sense. I think it would also make sense to grow the dot org into a team of people. I mean, sorry, I mean if Xach goes that direction then I will say "of course they did, it makes sense" :)
<Xach> sebboh: yes, you can create other sets of software. but you are also right about the bus factor of "core" quicklisp - things that are "official" in some sense.
<jackdaniel> he does amazing and tedious work, I'm not sure if you'd find many capable people who would want to do it too
<Xach> sebboh: there is a freedom to fork (or make independent releases) with a new name but only i can make changes to the thing called "quicklisp"
<Xach> I'm not against sharing the work - I haven't reached out much.
<sebboh> I think you've done the work well enough that people probably don't reach out to you much. The busfactor will change when there is a clear need. Maybe that is not yet.
<Xach> sebboh: A few people have reached out over time but it's not always clear how to help.
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<Xach> sebboh: The most time-consuming ongoing part of quicklisp is reporting failures
<stacksmith> Xach: Many thanks. I am a big fan.
<dlowe> Xach: designing a workflow for people to accomplish a task is like programming
<Xach> 2nd place is building new projects with foreign code requirements
<sebboh> like you report them to upstream? Do any projects accept automated such reports? I feel like GNU coreutils has automated reporting of build failures; or semi-automated.
<sebboh> it's based around a mailing list.
<sebboh> and log files.
<stacksmith> Designing a workflow is more like telling people which religion to follow.
<Xach> sebboh: i do report them upstream. the reports are formulaic: "i tried to build X today on the latest SBCL and it failed with the error Y. Here's a link to the full build log."
<sjl_> there's an RSS feed for each project, I think http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/01/build-failure-rss-feeds.html
<Xach> I have tools to automatically post to github, but not all projects use github (and I think that's good)
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<sjl_> Oh I didn't realize there was a per-author one too. That's nice.
<sebboh> the rss feed, the link to the build logs, the github thingy, all good stuff. And still reporting build failures takes the most bandwidth? Are you *out* of bandwidth? i.e. is there something else you'd do more of if you did less reporting build failures?
<Xach> I've been plagued by server failures and resets this year, so my next low-hanging fruit is automatically building everything early every day so a failure report is ready for me each morning. That setup was working for a few years but has been out of commission for months.
<Xach> It's almost but not quite as simple as re-establishing a cron job
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<Xach> sebboh: When I have free time I am more likely to play with a tractor than a computer right now. That slows progress also this summer.
<borodust> Xach: yeah, like archive per .asdf project
<Xach> borodust: ok, that is not what will happen and is not likely to happen
<borodust> Xach: is submodule fetch recursive btw?
<borodust> or is it only for toplevel submodules
<borodust> (i'm using submodules for FFI project to fetch foreign code for generating wrappers)
<ck_> does git support submodules in submodules? I'm pretty sure it once didn't
<borodust> (meaning it would fetch foreign codebase no one would need, if fetch is recursive)
<Xach> borodust: recursive
<borodust> i see
<Xach> ck_: it does
* jackdaniel prefers subtrees over submodules, they are much less confusing (to him)
<Xach> the viewpoint of quicklisp re submodules is that a repo is the sum of the "main" module and all submodules recursively.
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<borodust> fair
<borodust> hmm
<Xach> jackdaniel: how do they differ? (i can google this, but maybe you have a nice summary)
<borodust> some of my projects in quicklisp main distro will get much buffier...
<Xach> hmm
<borodust> FFI ones in particular
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<borodust> that's what i do, basically: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-nuklear/tree/master/lib
<borodust> glad/ and nuklear/
<Xach> borodust: good to know. this was prompted by a specific project that pulled in some FFI code to build a minor part of its functionality, and the submodule inclusion was not very big. but i see that there are different models now too.
<ck_> Xach: by the way, are you still running the thing behind @planet_lisp ?
<Xach> I have avoided submodules for a long time because they seemed a little wierd to use and involved shell scripting to really work. but i was able to write a lisp script instead that did what I needed.
<Xach> ck_: i do. that is a victim of server problems and resets.
<ck_> I see. Thanks
<jackdaniel> Xach: there was a nice tutorial on the web I've read but I can't seem to find it
<borodust> Xach: could submodule fetch be an option to a project reference?
<jackdaniel> in essence submodules are like git repositories in your git repository
<jackdaniel> subtrees are more like all code is versioned in your repository with additional metadata assigned to directories so you can pull/push from different remotes as if said directories were separate repos
<Xach> borodust: i think so - how would you want to express that to me?
<Xach> "<project>/quicklisp/nosubmodules" file exists?
<borodust> hmm
<borodust> maybe an opt-in then
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<borodust> ".submodules_certainly_should_be_included_for_this_particular_project" or smth ;p
<borodust> wait
<borodust> we are talking about including project into quicklisp dist, right?
<Xach> borodust: yes
<Xach> borodust: specifically the process that makes an archive tarball from the upstream repo
<borodust> i was a bit confused about quicklisp/nosubmodules
<Xach> borodust: e.g. bodge-nuklear/quicklisp/nosubmodules file now exists
<Xach> (or .quicklisp? but i don't always like dotfiles because of windows)
<borodust> i was thinking more about fetch metadata for quicklisp
<Xach> Right, that is too late
<borodust> oh
<borodust> opt-in is out of the question too?
<borodust> like if i want/need quicklisp to fetch submodules for the project to be loadable i would add certain marker
<dlowe> Xach: are you using git clone --recurse-submodules?
<Xach> dlowe: no, checkout + git submodule update --init --recursive
<Xach> borodust: not necessarily
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<Xach> Right now only one project breaks, and only gently, if i omit submodules
<dlowe> I think using --recurse-submodules works on all the necessary cases
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<Xach> dlowe: I don't believe that works for archive
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<dlowe> hm, no, you are correct.
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<voldial> I keep running into py problems that make me feel like I am using the wrong language. For example, right now, I'm adding items to a set. The items are type bytes. I want to add constraints on the set, but in py a set is a base type, it's not some class I can just reach into and modify by adding a checkconstraint. The standard way is to instead defince some "class SpecialSet" and then either overload the various
<voldial> __operation__() methods to preserve adding sets with + or intersecting with |, and for a pile of reasons, that's usually not a good idea, so SpecialSet gets it's own .add() and .intersect() instead, and you just need to remember to use those. It's a mess. This is not a problem in a real functional language... right?
<Josh_2> the what now?
<Josh_2> are you using common lisp?
<voldial> Josh_2: me? no, I'm using python. too much.
<pjb> voldial: notice that you cannot define subclasses of built-in classes in CL either.
<Josh_2> big yikes
<voldial> pjb: bummer. that's what I was trying to ask. what am I missing?
<pjb> (defclass i (integer) (color :initarg :color :accessor i-color)) #| ERROR: The class #<built-in-class integer> was specified as a super-class of the class #<standard-class i>; but the meta-classes #<standard-class built-in-class> and #<standard-class standard-class> are incompatible. |#
<pjb> voldial: now, there's no SET class in CL, so you're free to define your own ;-)
<pjb> But you can do the same in python.
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<pjb> That said, I guess that using the
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<pjb> MOP, you could do something.
<pjb> (like, definining a compatible meta-class).
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<voldial> thanks. I'll read up on the metaobject protocol. very lisp noob.
<snai1> hi, i'm learning Emacs Lisp can i make some question about?
<Bike> having your own metaclass wouldn't let you make your own kind of integer
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<Bike> snai1: this channel is for common lisp. maybe try #emacs
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<snai1> yes i guessed thanks
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<pjb> voldial: in CL you would just start by defininig your own add-byte-to-set function with the checks, and use that instead of pushnew.
<snai1> I'm sorry i've just thinked that my problem can be not too much about Emacs Lisp but about Lisp in general. I have to write a function that takes one argument and return an other function that takes an other argument. The problem is that i cant evaluate the second function.
<pjb> voldial: already since there are only 256 bytes, you could use a bit vector to represent your sets of bytes: (let ((set (make-array 256 :element-type 'bit :initial-element 0))) (setf (aref set byte) 1)) is how you would add a byte.
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<pjb> voldial: but of course, there are a lot of ways to represent sets of bytes, this is why you would define a functional abstractioN: (make-set-of-byte) (include-byte-to-set byte set) (exclude-byte-from-set byte set) (set-contains-byte-p set byte) etc.
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<voldial> interesting. thanks for the example. my brain isnt wired for lisp yet, takes a bit to unpack;)
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<pjb> voldial: it's better to first learn the language independently of preconceived ideas and knowledge. See http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorials and http://cliki.net for other learning resources.
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<voldial> pjb: willdo. I found a yt series "little bits of lisp" that's rather entertaining too.
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<sebboh> When was asdf released? If there was some previous thing also called asdf which was very much related, when was it first released?
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<jackdaniel> sebboh: asdf was released in 2001 (started by Daniel Barlow, then extended and maintained by others, most notably Fare Rideau and Robert Goldman who is the current maintainer
<jackdaniel> before asdf there were some competing defsystem macros serving a similar purpose
<jackdaniel> from portable ones there was mk-defsystem developed by Mark Kantrowitz
<jackdaniel> (I may have mispelled his name, I'd have to check it)
<sebboh> ok, that matches what I read on the web page. And the predecessor wasn't called asdf-- ah, ok.
<sebboh> Question answered.
<Josh_2> asdf was spawned from random combinations of open and closed parens floating around in the universe
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<jackdaniel> that would explain a lot regarding its design ,) good night
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<no-defun-allowed> take care
<sebboh> Josh_2: a Boltzmann brain. :P Well, probably a bit simpler/more likely.
<sebboh> also good night.
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