jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
<alexanderbarbosa> r/lispmemes is more informative than I foresaw... I know that Rust is crap, whatever it is! :D
<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: is there any real use of that in web development... if so, I might really take is serious!
<aeth> alexanderbarbosa: The use for the web is that you get a uniform syntax for JS or WASM (frontend), (X)HTML, CSS, SQL, CL (backend), GLSL, JSON, etc., and can template using the same macro/function abstractions without having to worry about the differing syntaxes, since that's handled at a different layer of the program.
<moldybits> lol @ rust
<aeth> The disadvantage is afaik no one did the Rails of this, so it's a bit DIY to glue it all together.
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<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: well, its just a "little step to Lisp...."
<aeth> alexanderbarbosa: Essentially, what Lisp gives you is a free intermediate format instead of having to directly work with string manipulation. You have (at least) two stages, the s-expression stage and the write-to-stream (usually string generation) stage.
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<aeth> alexanderbarbosa: I would personally ignore Lisp Memes, Paul Graham, and anyone else who acts like Lisp is the perfect solution for everything. (Although the memes might be joking.)
<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: haha
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<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: seems that Rust is their main aim... lol
<aeth> alexanderbarbosa: afaik, that's just memes by no-defun-allowed
<no-defun-allowed> no, most are by defunkydrummer
<aeth> I don't really think much about Ada or Rust because what I do isn't really where those languages are used.
<no-defun-allowed> aeth: orange crab bad
<aeth> You're much more likely to encounter C++ or Java on the higher performance end or Python or Ruby or JavaScript on the scripting/abstract end.
<alexanderbarbosa> "10/10 would cons again" :D
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<aeth> Oh, and with gaming in particular, you can add C# to the first list and Lua to the second.
<aeth> s/add/cons/
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<aeth> I can understand (but personally don't really join in on) the hate for Clojure because at least to outsiders it looks like it competes with CL's roles.
<alexanderbarbosa> well, after reading some post on r/lispmemes, now I get why no-defun-allowed says that there is no lisp-like languages...
<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: oh boy, its gonna be a loooong weekend
<p_l> alexanderbarbosa: well... have you seen Logo? :)
<p_l> it is kinda a simplified lisp (was used as language for children)
<p_l> Dylan is Lisp-without-S-expressions
<p_l> like every M-expression based lisp, it died ;)
<alexanderbarbosa> p_l: too bad :D
<p_l> (it does have macros, tho')
<alexanderbarbosa> so far, Clojure and Web Development...
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<LdBeth> Good morning
<no-defun-allowed> morning LdBeth
<LdBeth> Unfortunately when a language is referred as xxx for children, nobody really thinks it can be used in production
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<loke> LdBeth: if you that was true. Unfortuantely people use Python in production all the time.
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<no-defun-allowed> Logo On Rails when
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<seok> Reading output from a process here,
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<seok> (defun r ()
<seok> Why doesn't this work?
<no-defun-allowed> seok: use a pastebin thanks
<seok> no-defun-allowed: sorry, thought 3 lines would show up
<no-defun-allowed> The output may not be immediately ready when you LISTEN to it.
<seok> The outputs are ready
<seok> It only spits out one line
<seok> it does same as (read-line ...)
<seok> defeating purpose of loop
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<no-defun-allowed> I wouldn't be sure they're ready. Don't you know how many lines you have to read?
<seok> Previous code I had hanged when it reached the end of output, waiting for the next output
<seok> So I am trying to make it so it reads all available lines then exits
<no-defun-allowed> If it closes the output when it's done, (loop for line = (read-line output nil) until (null line) do (write-line line))
<seok> Ah, I will try that
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<seok> It doesn't close output
<seok> though
<no-defun-allowed> Is there really no indication of when the output will be done? No line count or anything?
<seok> Nope
<seok> Just want to fetch all available lines right now
<seok> Output is never done
<seok> It will spit out logs whenever they are up
<no-defun-allowed> Great. Maybe then you could try to wait a short time (eg 0.1 second) for a result in that case.
<seok> Perhaps is it possible to implement a timeout in the loop?
<seok> How would I
<seok> How would I do that
<no-defun-allowed> (loop named read-loop do (loop for i = 0 to 10 do (if (listen output) (return) (sleep 0.1) finally (return-from read-loop)) do (write-line (read-line output))) is the best I can think of immediately
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<seok> Hm, I simply did (loop until (not (listen *output*)) .....)
<seok> That worked
<seok> Thank you friend
<no-defun-allowed> The inner sleep loop is so that it doesn't burn CPU cycles waiting for LISTEN.
<seok> it's not good to use listen?
<seok> seems to be just 2x whatever the cost of only doing (read-line)
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<no-defun-allowed> Not in a tight loop like that. If you have a SLEEP form, the CL system gives up its CPU time so it's more likely the subprocess gets to be run, and in the millions of LISTEN calls the CL process will do, only a few will result in T in your case.
<aeth> seok: why :until (not ...) and not :while?
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<seok> aeth: I guess that is equivalent
<seok> Hm, maybe it's a thing with uiop:launch-program
<seok> but the process output stream works a bit different from what I would expect
<seok> Only 3 or 4 lines are output at a time if I don't read from the output
<seok> Guess it is just better to have a process always to running to catch all the outputs
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<pjb> seok: listen only guarantees one character on the stream. So you can use only read-char, unless you accept to be blocked again.
<seok> pjb: how can I listen for a line? IE line with nil or newline at the end
<pjb> seok: and when reading from a file or frmo a terminal, you will probably have buffering from the system or the drivers (eg. line buffering on terminals), listening on a character will stop at the end of the line, so you cannot listen to characters until you type RET in the terminal.
<pjb> seok: listen is for asynchronous I/O. Just use READ-LINE to read a line.
<seok> This is asynchronous, it's stream from a uiop:launch-program
<seok> output is (uiop:process-info-output process)
<pjb> seok: if the terminal is in raw mode (no buffering), then something like (loop while (listen *terminal-io*) collect (read-char *terminal-io*)) will probably return only one character, since the user cannot type fast enough for listen to return true the second time.
<pjb> seok: for the pipe/socket stream, you need to know whether it's buffered or not.
<seok> It's a mongodb process
<pjb> seok: some timing may also depend on the program and its options. See for example grep --line-buffered
<seok> Just want to collect the logs it spits out
<pjb> uiop/run-program:slurp-input-stream
<pjb> (apropos "SLURP")
<pjb> If you look at the source of slurp-stream-lines, you will see it just loops on read-line.
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<dave0> hi
<dave0> i'm a newbie
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<pjb> dave0: there's #clschool for newbies wanting to learn.
<pjb> dave0: have a look at http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
<pjb> dave0: have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
<dave0> okay thanks! i will
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<beach> dave0: Some newbie questions are tolerated here, but #clschool is better.
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<LdBeth> GG
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<no-defun-allowed> Would anyone know if Sussman's HACKER program (from his thesis) is available to look at anywhere?
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<afidegnum> is there no a full pdf version of Let Over Lambda?
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<schweers> afidegnum: No, some chapter are available for free, some are not.
<edgar-rft> there are, but I don't think they're legal
<schweers> Well, that may be the case ;)
<Josh_2> It's not very expensive
<Josh_2> on amazon
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<afidegnum> schweers: i m interested in the non-free chapters :D :D :D
<schweers> I figured.
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<Bike> amazon doesn't seem to have an ebook or anything.
<Bike> don't see one on hoyte's site either.
<Josh_2> oh, I bought one on Amazon a few weeks back
<Josh_2> Yes, only paperback
<afidegnum> you mean those chapters are also not available as ebooks in amazon store?
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<Bike> the whole book isn't available as an ebook, and they don't sell chapters individually.
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<Bike> hoyte seems fairly smalltime. you could maybe just email him and ask if he offers a pdf or something you could buy, since he does have some chapters as html
<Bike> or you could just buy the paperback.
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<oni-on-ion> LoL, advanced... delicious anaphoria
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<sahara3> hello??
<Bike> wassup
<Bike> one question mark is sufficient
<sahara3> ??
<Bike> you're up to four question marks
<Bike> do you need something
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<sahara3> I just want to be part of the group
<sahara3> :)
<Bike> cool
<sahara3> my name is queen and I'm from venezuela
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<Josh_2> uhm
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<aoeu256> Is this a good place to ask noob questions? I was wondering if using Prolog/Constraint Solvers in Lisp can practically reduce bugs and code size. Also where do I find a collection of macros that can increase productivity, it be nice if there is a collection of inference/static analysis/static test/tracing macros.
<Josh_2> That does not sound like a noob question
<remexre> I'm having some trouble with Trivia; I'm trying to create a pattern foo, where both (foo x) and (foo x :bar y) are valid, and where x matches against the baz slot and y matches against the bar slot of objects of the foo class?
<sahara3> bye
<remexre> I've got (defpattern (foo x &key y) `(foo :baz ,x :bar ,y)), but this complains about foo not being a defined function (which sure, it isn't, but the trivia docs make it look like this is the correct usage)
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<ebrasca> aoeu256: Maybe for static analysis http://quickdocs.org/lisp-critic/
<warweasle> Hi. Did work last night. I almost have my unequip/equip and unequip/interaction/reequip working.
<warweasle> Whoops, wrong channel.
<sahara3> someone speaks spanish?
<ebrasca> sahara3: Si , yes
<Josh_2> ebrasca: does anyone use that to analyze their code?
<sahara3> ebrasca que bien por fin alguien que hable español
<ebrasca> Josh_2: I don't know.
<Josh_2> I'm sure I wouldn't mind being roasted by a computer program ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
<ebrasca> sahara3: Creo que es muy util saber ingles.
<aoeu256> yo puedo entender espanol, pero no puedo hablar : )
<sahara3> si se hablar ingles solo que me cuenta un poco
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<warweasle> ?Yo quiero taco bell?
<sahara3> aprendi hace mucho porque vivía en usa pero me mude a Venezuela
<Josh_2> ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
<ebrasca> aoeu256: It is not espanol , correct is español. It is with "ñ" and not "n".
<sahara3> y ahora volví otra vez a estados unidos
<Lycurgus> US keyboards don't have diacritics by default
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<warweasle> sahara3: You would very much like to eat a large "porque" with a dog from Venezuela?
<Xach> warweasle: lisp stuff?
<Josh_2> ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ warweasle
<Lycurgus> and only spanish ones have n sueno sfaik
<warweasle> Xach: Unfortunately, no. Not unless I get my lisp interpersonal political sim working.
<aoeu256> There was this millionaire guy Paul Graham and he said he used macros to to make his code shorter by a lot / optimize his code. I wonder which Macros he used (other than those he talks about in his book). He talks about as if he knows what what our "highest-level" languages 30-60 years from now will look like.
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<ebrasca> Lycurgus: spanish is 3 most speaked in ther world ...
<Josh_2> Paul Graham, never heard of the guy ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ jk
<warweasle> Xach: But if I could get some help rewriting Unreal Engine to lisp...that would be great.
<Josh_2> aoeu256: yes, you can do that quite easily if you understand how to write good macros
<sahara3> warweasle no
<aoeu256> Can't Lisp be compiled to C?
<aoeu256> Yeah, I want to know what those good macros are haha : )
<ebrasca> aoeu256: Yes , 1 example is ecl.
<Josh_2> aoeu256: well you will have to read some goood source code.
<warweasle> aoeu256: If you want some light reading, I recommend "Lisp In Small Pieces".
<aoeu256> ecl is a macro or a compiler?
<Josh_2> There is Let Over λ which discusses macro writing
<Lycurgus> our highest level language 30 years from now will be English/NL
<aoeu256> How did you write \lambda?
<Josh_2> with emacs autoreplace thingo
<warweasle> I'm pretty sure our highest language in 30 years will involve grunting like cavemen.
<aoeu256> Yeah, but before we get to English well get to something half-way between Lisp and English, and it'd be nice to program in that.
<Josh_2> warweasle: isn't that what we already do?
<Josh_2> aoeu256: well you are in the right place for that
<warweasle> Sorry, my cynicism is shining through again.
* Lycurgus recognizes the conservative/reactionary mind in action
<ebrasca> I think it is better to use spanish.
<Josh_2> I think you are wrong
<warweasle> Spanish speakers live longer.
<Lycurgus> English is only technically second or third
<Lycurgus> Chinese isn't really a single language, even Putonghua
<sahara3> I don't like the food of venezuela
<ebrasca> Spanish is speaked more than english.
<Lycurgus> and Spanish is mostly limited to the Spanish speaking countries
<Josh_2> Yes but spanish countries are poor and useless ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ I will be quiet now
<sahara3> only candy
<ebrasca> They are not.
<ebrasca> Spain is empire and with power.
<warweasle> We need a way to speak lisp natively. I'm tired of translating ideas from english to lisp.
<Lycurgus> it was a couple hunderd ya
<aoeu256> Warweasle: can't you write a reader macro for that ?
<warweasle> My english compiler keeps giving me errors.
<ebrasca> warweasle: I don't undestand.
<warweasle> English doesn't handle infinite recursion.
<aoeu256> Hmm infix would be nice in the repl, and then change the infix to lisp especially with pipes(|>).
<aoeu256> Pipes allow you to write expressions in any order.
<aoeu256> like a |> f = f a in Haskell
* ebrasca likes prefix notation.
<Josh_2> same
* warweasle likes s-expressions better.
<aoeu256> Keeping it all prefix is good for readibility
<aoeu256> but sometimes its easier to type something when you can reorder the expressions anyway you want
<aoeu256> and then it'll change it into prefix
<ebrasca> aoeu256: I think there are libraryes for infix notation.
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<aoeu256> Like lets say your writing code and you forget you needed a let, but your inside the expression. How do you write the let on the outside?
<aoeu256> maybe there are emacs experts that do this?
<ck_> do what?
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<aoeu256> like lets say you are writing EXPR| and then you figure out you wanted (let (blah) EXPR|) where | is the cursor, or any thing else.
<ck_> that's what paredit is for
<aoeu256> its a command in paredit?
<sahara3> that old are they?
<ck_> you type C-M-u to go up the syntax tree, then M-( to wrap the expression in parentheses, then type let ((var binding)...)
<aoeu256> i'll try that haha thanks
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<ck_> there's also redshank, which builds on paredit
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<ck_> that gives you commands like redshank-letify-form-up and other more composite editing verbs
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<sahara3> I'm hungry
<Josh_2> Yes, you live in venezuela
<sahara3> it is difficult to live in venezuela
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<Josh_2> if I have two strings "a" and "1" how can I tell that one can be passed to (parse-integer ..) and the other cant?
<Josh_2> I can obviously just catch the condition when I eval (parse-integer "a") and then do something, but I am curious if there is another way
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<ebrasca> Josh_2: Maybe you can use (parse-integer "a" :junk-allowed t) ?
<Josh_2> and there we go..
<Josh_2> obviously I missed the most simple of solutions
<Josh_2> thanks
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<pfdietz> But "a" can be passed and accepted, if :radix is 11 or larger.
<Josh_2> radix is 10 ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
<edgar-rft> what is decimal 2 if *print-radix* is 2
<edgar-rft> nobody noticed the bug :-) ... when *print-base* is 2
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<pjb> edgar-rft: *print-radix* doesn't matter. if *read-base* = 2, then 2 is read as a symbol.
<pjb> (let ((*read-base* 2)) (type-of (read-from-string "2"))) #| --> symbol |#
<sahara3> :)
<sahara3> :-/
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<sahara3> boys??
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<edgar-rft> pjb: that's probably useful for symbolic math
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<sahara3> manualcrank hello
<sahara3> :-D
<Josh_2> Only a bit strange
<Josh_2> sahara3: maybe go to #lispcafe
<sahara3> ??
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<pjb> edgar-rft: perhaps, but since we cannot use base 0 to have 0 and 1 read as a symbols too, we'd have to use a reader macro anyways.
<aeth> oh, that's fun. of course 'a is 10 when *read-base* is 16 and of course '9 is |9| when *read-base* is 8.
<pjb> aeth: not necessarily!
<aeth> Things become really fun when you match the *print-base* with the *read-base*
<aeth> pjb: that was assuming that *print-base* wasn't changed yet
<aeth> Now, when you match *print-base* with the *read-base* to, say, 8... well, now *print-base* and *read-base* are both 10 and '9 is 9, not |9| haha
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<aeth> Too bad it's not a complete transformation. (float 10) => 8.0
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<pjb> (setf *read-base* 7) (setf *read-base* 16) (list 'a '9)
<pjb> Well, it works, in that case, *read-base* is thirteen.
<pjb> Again *print-base* is irrelevant.
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<aeth> pjb: the relevance was '9 => 9 instead of '9 => |9| once I changed *print-base*
<pjb> You want to write your integers with a decimal dot to ensure base ten: (setf *read-base* 7) (setf *read-base* 16) (print (list 'a 'e '9)) (setf *read-base* 16.) (list 'a 'e '9) prints: (10 e 9) returns: (10 14 9)
<pjb> Oh, but that depends on *print-escape* too…
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<pjb> Imagine the fun you could have, by messing with *print-base* and *read-base* in a few reader macros…
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<aeth> pjb: Imagine the fun you could have by SETFing *print-base* and *read-base* in a basic dependency that's loaded early on by ASDF, such as in Alexandria!
<pfdietz> readtable shenanigans are enough for me
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<sahara3> who wants to talk to me?
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<moldybits> about what
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<pjb> sahara3: try #lispcafe.
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<sahara3> #lispcafe.??
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<alexanderbarbosa> sahara3: just ask...
<sahara3> ok..
<sahara3> alexanderbarbosa How old are you??
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<sahara3> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } Anuel AA, Daddy Yankee, Karol G, Ozuna & J Balvin - China
<sahara3> Anuel AA, Daddy Yankee, Karol G, Ozuna & J Balvin - China
<Bike> please be coherent
<sahara3> it's a musician
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<sahara3> is anyone 17.18 or 19 years old?
<no-defun-allowed> hi i'm 18
<sahara3> no-defun-allowed that well I finally get someone my age:-D
<sahara3> :-/
<no-defun-allowed> \-:
<sahara3> :-/
<no-defun-allowed> :-\
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<Josh_2> y33ted
<Josh_2> No food, no internet
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<aeth> Not one line about Lisp or Common Lisp. I wonder how they found this place, and if they had a Lisp question and were just waiting to ask or if they thought this was some general chat room.
<Josh_2> They are from venezuela ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<aeth> Oh, and that user could have been a bot, too.
<alexanderbarbosa> lol....
<alexanderbarbosa> maybe he thinks its a room with lisp people :D
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<no-defun-allowed> sahara3: you ever written any lisp before?
<Josh_2> no-defun-allowed: they no longer here
<edgar-rft> sahara from venezuela? what about geography? These smartphone kids today...
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<alexanderbarbosa> edgar-rft: loled hard here
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<alexanderbarbosa> someone just rated a book 1 star because the code from a example did not look a perfect "circle"... lol
<alexanderbarbosa> books review are not reliable..
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<aeth> alexanderbarbosa: I rate everything that claims to produce a circle 1 star because I have yet to see a perfect circle
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<alexanderbarbosa> aeth: ok